Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithrus 03-15-07, 01:15 PM	Ok, let's assume I have a spiked heavy adamantine shield. I got it enchanted as a shield +5, then spent more cash to make it a +4 defender(+5 bonus). If I understand the rules correctly, then I can get a +11 total AC bonus, it will have a hardness of 38 (20+9*2), and have 110 HPs (20+9*10). Similarly, I could buy an elvencraft darkwood longbow and enchant it as a bow +5, and a quarterstaff +4 defending/+4 defending and get +8 AC, and it will have a hardness of 36 (10+13*2) and have 140 HPs (10+13*10). This would seem to work as the description of elvencraft states the user can switch between using the bow as a bow or a quarterstaff between each attack. This screams like an exploit, but is it correct?
jstorrie 03-15-07, 01:39 PM	You could always have bought defending armor spikes or a defending gauntlet, so this isn't that exploitative. It's probably not the most cost-effective way of raising your AC.
Sieylianna 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	Ok, let's assume I have a spiked heavy adamantine shield. I got it enchanted as a shield +5, then spent more cash to make it a +4 defender(+5 bonus). If I understand the rules correctly, then I can get a +11 total AC bonus, it will have a hardness of 38 (20+9*2), and have 110 HPs (20+9*10). Similarly, I could buy an elvencraft darkwood longbow and enchant it as a bow +5, and a quarterstaff +4 defending/+4 defending and get +8 AC, and it will have a hardness of 36 (10+13*2) and have 140 HPs (10+13*10). This would seem to work as the description of elvencraft states the user can switch between using the bow as a bow or a quarterstaff between each attack. This screams like an exploit, but is it correct? I don't think you understand the amount of money involved. Counting only the enchantments (ignoring base item, masterwork and special material cost): the shield is 25,000 (+5 shield) + 50,000 (+4 defending spike) or 75,000 GP. The quarterstaff is 125,000 GP for all three enchantments. You need access to the defending enchantment. The defending bonus is set at the start of your turn and remains until your next turn, so you can't change that with an elvencraft bow. If you had access, you could buy +8 bracers of armor for 64,000. You lose the attack option, but it's less money and should work against incorporeal attacks too. The real exploit with defending weapon is to get a +1 defending, holy, bane weapon and then GMW the weapon bonus. Ed
katrick 03-15-07, 03:07 PM	+1 Animated blinding bashing sheild with +1 keen vicious mighty cleaving spike of spell storing now thats worth the money katrick
cycloptic_squirrel 03-15-07, 03:25 PM	+1 Animated blinding bashing sheild with +1 keen vicious mighty cleaving spike of spell storing now thats worth the money katrick Ummm, I don't know know how it got on my MIL. It was uh, like one of those gifts... from the... elves... so, I didn't actually need to pay anything for it. :shifty: Also with the defending bonus, remember that you actually have to use the weapon. The enchantment doesn't actually do anything when you're casting a spell, walking around, etc. Although... GMW on a defending spiked gauntlet, used only for the last iterative attack... still probably not worth it, but interesting to consider (at least for me).
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 05:44 PM	Also with the defending bonus, remember that you actually have to use the weapon. The enchantment doesn't actually do anything when you're casting a spell, walking around, etc. Although... GMW on a defending spiked gauntlet, used only for the last iterative attack... still probably not worth it, but interesting to consider (at least for me). Take another look at Defending. You don't have to attack with it to get its bonus. -Matt
cycloptic_squirrel 03-15-07, 06:18 PM	Take another look at Defending. You don't have to attack with it to get its bonus. -Matt But you still have to use the weapon. I followed the other thread after I posted. Still have same opinion. The description says "before using the weapon". I take that to mean you have to use it. Attacking is the only way I can think of common use. Just because you're capable of attacking with an animated shield, armor spikes, two spiked gauntlets, both ends of the pair of quarterstaffs one size smaller than you, the two gnome quickrazors, the mouth dart, and your pair o' big boots o' stompin does not mean that as a DM I would have to allow you to get defensive bonuses from any one of them unless you actually use the weapon in particular. If it were the case, one cleric could walk out of an APL 16, craft up a storm simply from the profits, and provided he has an ion stone, crack bead, and chain metamagic, sit around the next mod up 25 AC, even if he's just casting spells. I've listed enough things weilded that he could even repeat it! Balance issues aside, I read the defending ability entry as heavily implying that you must actually use said weapon. If there's an errata or FAQ, I've missed it.
Munkwunk 03-15-07, 06:40 PM	Ok, let's assume I have a spiked heavy adamantine shield. I got it enchanted as a shield +5, then spent more cash to make it a +4 defender(+5 bonus). If I understand the rules correctly, then I can get a +11 total AC bonus, it will have a hardness of 38 (20+9*2), and have 110 HPs (20+9*10). Similarly, I could buy an elvencraft darkwood longbow and enchant it as a bow +5, and a quarterstaff +4 defending/+4 defending and get +8 AC, and it will have a hardness of 36 (10+13*2) and have 140 HPs (10+13*10). This would seem to work as the description of elvencraft states the user can switch between using the bow as a bow or a quarterstaff between each attack. I believe youa re correct. Insane cost aside, the hardness/hti points would indeed be extraordinary. If you were to invest that much money in to a single item though, wouldn't you want them to be? I originally thought the shield and its spikes were to be treated as seperate entities, thus splitting the hardness/hit point gains, but upon further research it seems that the intent is for the shield spikes to actually be part of the shield (thus turning it in to a spiked shield, not a shield+spikes). This means that the enhancement bonuses, including hardness and hit point gains, are indeed cumulative.
Eric Anondson 03-15-07, 07:00 PM	I believe youa re correct. Insane cost aside, the hardness/hti points would indeed be extraordinary.I'm not sure it is clear that the enhancements coming from weapon enhancements alter the hardness and hit point values of the shield. And I don't think that equivalent bonus value from a special ability doesn't count towards hardness and hit points of an item. So a +1 heavy shield of heavy fortification only gets as a +2 hardness and +10 hit points even though it costs equal to a +6 shield. IMO, weapon enhancements to a shield would add hit point and hardness improvements that weapons get.
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 10:33 PM	I was looking at this earlier. A shield itself is already a weapon, and may be enchanted as a weapon even without spikes. Shield spikes just bump the damage value when it's used as a weapon. -Matt
Munkwunk 03-15-07, 11:22 PM	I'm not sure it is clear that the enhancements coming from weapon enhancements alter the hardness and hit point values of the shield. And I don't think that equivalent bonus value from a special ability doesn't count towards hardness and hit points of an item. So a +1 heavy shield of heavy fortification only gets as a +2 hardness and +10 hit points even though it costs equal to a +6 shield. I didn't check the math in the original post. I assumed HP/hardness presented were based on the actual enhancement bonuses of the items, not the special qualities (which do not, in fact, add to the item's HP/hardness). That being said, a shield is indeed listed as both a weapon and an armor. Even barring that, shield spikes simply create a "spiked shield" which can be enchanted as either. +5 shield spikes on a +5 shield would essentially add to the HP/hardness of an item as if it had a +10 enhancement bonus.