Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MatBlack 02-08-07, 03:11 PM	from perusing both the forums here, and the posts from the LG yahoo! group, it seems that there is a LOT of confusion regarding the "new" Open/ Closed/ NONC access system and how it relates to magic item creation and purchasing updrades of available items. while i'm no one official in the campaign, i thought that with all the questions and answers being scattered around in different forums and group posts, it would be easier to have all the info centralized. so, this is how it works, as i understand it, as stated by a combination of the new LGCS rulings, and various posts by the powers that be (mostly britt). if i am erroneous, i am sure that someone official will correct it. Open Access Items and Limitations on Item Bonuses the new Open Access magic items specifically listed in Appendix 4 of the LGCS are not restricted by a maximum bonus, except as indicated by the DMG. this means that all PCs can now purchase stat boost items from the DMG at +2, +4, or +6, provided that they have the cash to do so. the same theory applies to other items listed in Appendix 4 as Open Access (cloak of resistance, etc.) Magic Item Crafting Prerequisites the LGCS draft states that you must have access to an item in the "Items Found" box of any AR. it has been clarified that having access to purchasing the item through the Open Access items in Appendix 4 (see above) qualifies for this prerequisite as well (this will hopefully be clarified in the final printing of the LGCS). so you can craft any stat bump items from the DMG at +2, +4, or +6 as long as you meet all other crafting prerequisites. the same theory applies to other items listed as Open Access in Appendix 4 (cloak of resistance, etc.) as well as items that are not on this list that you find in the "Items Found" box of any AR. items available from favors but not listed in the "Items Found" box of an AR do not count as crafting access, unless the favor specifically states otherwise. even if you own an item from one of these favors, it does not count as access to craft that item. this rule supercedes the rule of being able to craft an item with Open Access. !!! caster level is no longer a prerequisite for crafting an item, unless it is specifically listed in the item's description !!! Upgrading Items Through Purchase non-crafting characters can upgrade any upgradable items that they own, as long as they have access to purchase the upgraded version of said item (through Open Access items from Appendix 4 or access granted from ARs). this means that stat bums items from the DMG can be upgraded through purchase (the exception being that gauntlets of ogre power cannot be upgraded, as the "second tier" of the stat boost item is actually a seperate item). the same theory applies to other Open Access items listed in Appendix 4 (cloak of resistance, etc.) as well as any items that you have access to purchase from ARs. access to purchase an item found on an AR follows all of the normal rules as listed in the LGCS (3 ARs for adventures, etc.) you pay the difference between the new item's cost and the old's. Upgrading Items Through Crafting crafting characters can upgrade any upgradeable items that they own, as long as they have access to craft the upgraded verion of said item (through Open Access items from Appendix 4 or access granted from ARs, as explained above). this means that stat bums items from the DMG can be upgraded through crafting (the exception being that gauntlets of ogre power cannot be upgraded, as the "second tier" of the stat boost item is actually a seperate item). the same theory applies to other Open Access items from Appendix 4 (cloak of resistance, etc.) as well as any items that you have access to craft from ARs. hopefully, this will be helpful.
Britt 02-08-07, 03:16 PM	That's all pretty spot on. The only clarification is that having Open access to an item doesn't qualify for crafting purposes. You have all the effects of the rules described correctly, but this nitpicky detail is required because gaining access to something effectively Opens it for you, which includes favors. If you say that Open access works for crafting, that implies favors work. So, only items in Appendix 4 and in the Items Found section of any AR work for crafting. Effectively the same as what you have, just a tiny bit different on terminology.
Howie23 02-08-07, 03:21 PM	That's all pretty spot on. The only clarification is that having Open access to an item doesn't qualify for crafting purposes. You have all the effects of the rules described correctly, but this nitpicky detail is required because gaining access to something effectively Opens it for you, which includes favors. If you say that Open access works for crafting, that implies favors work. So, only items in Appendix 4 and in the Items Found section of any AR work for crafting. Effectively the same as what you have, just a tiny bit different on terminology. There is clearly the idea here that there is a superset of Open, which includes the subset that is Appendix 4 and Items Found. We need a nifty word for the subset, or similar. Having another handy labels here would be helpful. David
jstorrie 02-08-07, 03:36 PM	Could you clarify specifically how this works for named enhancements on weapons, armor, or shields? I'm assuming that it's still the case that if you've found a holy longsword, you aren't considered to have open access to holy upgrades on any sort of weapon (but if you have access to a 'holy upgrade,' you can hire an NPC to do it?)
XLR8DMadness 02-08-07, 03:39 PM	Could you clarify specifically how this works for named enhancements on weapons, armor, or shields? I'm assuming that it's still the case that if you've found a holy longsword, you aren't considered to have open access to holy upgrades on any sort of weapon (but if you have access to a 'holy upgrade,' you can hire an NPC to do it?) From my reading of it and what's been posted by Britt and others, for non-crafters, if you find a +1 Holy Longsword in the Items Found section that was adventure access, for the next three adventures you could pay to have any weapon you own upgraded with Holy for the difference of the costs. For crafter's, it's a permanent access to Holy for any weapon you own.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 03:41 PM	That's all pretty spot on. The only clarification is that having Open access to an item doesn't qualify for crafting purposes. You have all the effects of the rules described correctly, but this nitpicky detail is required because gaining access to something effectively Opens it for you, which includes favors. If you say that Open access works for crafting, that implies favors work. So, only items in Appendix 4 and in the Items Found section of any AR work for crafting. Effectively the same as what you have, just a tiny bit different on terminology. Ok, so you can craft anything you got in the items found section of an AR, but not favors generally speaking. However, in the past there have been 2 types of favors. Some say "You may expend this favor at X time to purchase X item", and others say "You may expend this favor to gain Access: Adventure/Regional/Meta/Core to X item". Would the later type, the type of favor that specifically grants a specific type of access, qualify for crafting purposes?
jstorrie 02-08-07, 03:42 PM	If that is the case, XLR8DMadness, it is a very, very dramatic opening up of weapon/armor accesses. Possibly too dramatic, I think.
Britt 02-08-07, 03:42 PM	From my reading of it and what's been posted by Britt and others, for non-crafters, if you find a +1 Holy Longsword in the Items Found section that was adventure access, for the next three adventures you could pay to have any weapon you own upgraded with Holy for the difference of the costs. For crafter's, it's a permanent access to Holy for any weapon you own. You would have access to upgrade a +1 longsword with holy. It wouldn't work for any weapon, as +1 holy longsword isn't an upgrade of anything other than a longsword.
Britt 02-08-07, 03:43 PM	Ok, so you can craft anything you got in the items found section of an AR, but not favors generally speaking. However, in the past there have been 2 types of favors. Some say "You may expend this favor at X time to purchase X item", and others say "You may expend this favor to gain Access: Adventure/Regional/Meta/Core to X item". Would the later type, the type of favor that specifically grants a specific type of access, qualify for crafting purposes? No. It must appear in the Items Found section of the AR.
Timlagor 02-08-07, 03:43 PM	From my reading of it and what's been posted by Britt and others, for non-crafters, if you find a +1 Holy Longsword in the Items Found section that was adventure access, for the next three adventures you could pay to have any weapon you own upgraded with Holy for the difference of the costs. For crafter's, it's a permanent access to Holy for any weapon you own. That's an example that it would be good to see in the LGCS (maybe in the FAQ section ;)) [even more important if you're wrong]
XLR8DMadness 02-08-07, 03:44 PM	You would have access to upgrade a +1 longsword with holy. It wouldn't work for any weapon, as +1 holy longsword isn't an upgrade of anything other than a longsword. I stand corrected, though I'll read back through it. It might need to be clarified and/or put into the mini-FAQ at the end of the LGCS. [Edit] I just re-read the section on upgrading items and it doesn't mention that restriction on it. It would be good to mention it in that section Oh, btw, was I correct about everything else?
jstorrie 02-08-07, 03:45 PM	Thank you for the clarification, Britt. That's actually what I was hoping was the case.
MatBlack 02-08-07, 03:50 PM	That's all pretty spot on. The only clarification is that having Open access to an item doesn't qualify for crafting purposes. You have all the effects of the rules described correctly, but this nitpicky detail is required because gaining access to something effectively Opens it for you, which includes favors. If you say that Open access works for crafting, that implies favors work. So, only items in Appendix 4 and in the Items Found section of any AR work for crafting. Effectively the same as what you have, just a tiny bit different on terminology. i've edited it to more heavily reflect this issue. the bit about favors was specifically called out before, but is now reinforced.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 03:54 PM	That's all pretty spot on. The only clarification is that having Open access to an item doesn't qualify for crafting purposes. You have all the effects of the rules described correctly, but this nitpicky detail is required because gaining access to something effectively Opens it for you, which includes favors. If you say that Open access works for crafting, that implies favors work. So, only items in Appendix 4 and in the Items Found section of any AR work for crafting. Effectively the same as what you have, just a tiny bit different on terminology. So the wording should now be as follows? "You can craft any item for which you meet the crafting prerequisites and which is either listed in the Open Items section of Appendix 4 or which you have ever had access to purchase in the Items Found section of any AR." I hope this is what you are saying, Britt.
Britt 02-08-07, 03:56 PM	That looks right, Bob.
Synecdoche 02-08-07, 03:58 PM	Britt, It would be appropriate to have some of this clarification in the FAQ section of the new LGCS. -BMM
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 03:59 PM	No. It must appear in the Items Found section of the AR. Why the distinction between what's found in the items found section and stuff you can get from favors? If you've seen an item, you've seen an item right? I understand no counting purchase favors, because it's kinda wierd to go "Hey, I'm not gonna buy that from you, but can I get a good look at that? I want to make one myself.". Whereas the favors that specifically grant some type of access shouldn't be treated any differently that anything in the items found section. It would be much simpler to state something like this: "In order to purchase or craft an item, you must have Access: Adventure/Regional/Metaregional/Core to the item. With regards to purchase, it must be done within the access window." Crafters are already taking a HUGE hit by removing the +2 level rule...Honestly, it makes more sense that you should be able to craft ANYTHING you can buy/have been able to buy...
Fleetfang 02-08-07, 04:33 PM	Maybe I'm missing something in the Draft... I am admittedly trying to read it while handling the normal day's workload on the company dime... I don't see anywhere in the new Draft where exceptions are made for crafting Pearls of Power (or Mementos Magica [hint hint]). Is the caster level requirement for Pearls of Power changing back to 17th level?
XLR8DMadness 02-08-07, 04:37 PM	Maybe I'm missing something in the Draft... I am admittedly trying to read it while handling the normal day's workload on the company dime... I don't see anywhere in the new Draft where exceptions are made for crafting Pearls of Power (or Mementos Magica [hint hint]). Is the caster level requirement for Pearls of Power changing back to 17th level? There is no more caster level requirement for creating magic items unless the item specifically says so. As what the Pearls of Power say is that you have to be able to cast spells of the appropriate level, a 3rd level caster could make Pearls of Power 2nd if he had access to them.
chesspiece 02-08-07, 05:11 PM	If I had access to an item on an old MetaOrg sheet, does that allow me to MIC it? Some MetaOrg sheets are in the format of / treated like ARs. [I would assume no, but this might need to be clear in the LGCS.] Also, are Pearls of Power upgradable if you have access? (1st-level spell to 2nd-level spell) I've heard somewhere that they can't be, but it might be nice to include them in the Standard / Non-standard examples.
Mithreinmaethor 02-08-07, 06:38 PM	I could be wrong here but when you talk about crafting can you make sure that you use the correct terms. i.e Spellcaster Level and Caster Level. The 1st refers to your levels within a specific class. The other can be modified by feats, domains etc. So Caster Level is always important in crafting. Spellcaster Level is only used for specific items.
Gelth 02-08-07, 06:38 PM	Well, we had a favour in Ket that allowed such an upgrade (a pearl of power by one level), but that's highly unlikely to be precedent-setting. I could see it going either way. --Penn, Ket Triad
Timlagor 02-08-07, 07:47 PM	I could be wrong here but when you talk about crafting can you make sure that you use the correct terms. i.e Spellcaster Level and Caster Level. The 1st refers to your levels within a specific class. The other can be modified by feats, domains etc. So Caster Level is always important in crafting. Spellcaster Level is only used for specific items. Caster Level is no longer a requirement for crafting items. The only exceptions are those that specifically mention such a requirement in their descriptions: ie they say: "crafter must have caster level 15" or similar. A mere "CL17" is not a requirement but merely a description of a typical item of the sort (or possibly a CL inherent to the item type and generated in who-knows-what fashion).
bitznarf 02-08-07, 10:52 PM	Anyone have an example off hand of something that does have a specific caster level requirement so that I have something to look at and say 'Oh thats what it looks like when it does have a requirement'?
Britt 02-08-07, 10:59 PM	Cloak of resistance.
Lightblade 02-08-07, 11:18 PM	Also, Ioun Stones.
chesspiece 02-08-07, 11:24 PM	Ioun Stones (12th level). Cloak of Resistance requires a caster level of at least 3x the bonus (9th level for a +3). Similar for weapon / armor enhancements, amulet of natural armor, etc. Phylactery of undead turning has a special requirement - 10th level Cleric. Not exactly a caster level requirement though.
bitznarf 02-08-07, 11:35 PM	Thanks folks. Would this mean for the Ioun stones technically the crafter merely needs to have a total class level of 12 (ie 3rd level cleric to qualify for CWI + 9 other class levels, fighter, rogue, etc)? Moderate Varied; CL12; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level Or does it mean that the creator must have caster level 12?
Howie23 02-10-07, 10:57 AM	Very nice primier. One question: If upgrading an item via crafting or purchase upgrade, does the new item have to be exactly the same as the one I have access to? Examples: 1) If I have purchase access to a +1 longsword, flaming, can I upgrade my +1 trident to flaming? 2) If I have access to +1 chainmail, acid resistance, can I use that to upgrade my +1 mithral chainshirt to include acid resistance? 3) If I have +4 bracers of armor, and gain access to +1 bracers of armor, fire reisistance, can I add fire resistance to my +4 bracers? Thanks, David
jstorrie 02-10-07, 12:19 PM	Yes, the item has to be the same to be upgraded. A +1 flaming longsword is not in any way an upgrade of a +1 trident.
chesspiece 02-10-07, 12:25 PM	But with MIC, all your examples are legal (assuming prereqs).
Britt 02-10-07, 02:37 PM	Except for the third, as the ability to upgrade bracers with something other than numbers requires special documentation.
Howie23 02-10-07, 02:45 PM	Except for the third, as the ability to upgrade bracers with something other than numbers requires special documentation. So access to upgrade armor with a (foo) doesn't grant ability to upgrade bracers with (foo)? I would require access to bracers of (foo)? David
Britt 02-10-07, 03:02 PM	Even Bracers of Foo doesn't allow you to put Foo on Bracers of Armor, unless you have something saying you can use the rules that allow that. Doing so is an alternate rule that is not in the DMG.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 05:37 PM	His example has Bracers of 'Armour+1, Foo' though -is that not enough for adding Foo to bracers of Armour +4 using MIC?
Britt 02-10-07, 05:40 PM	No, because creating bracers of armor +x, foo is an alternate rule that is not allowed by the Core rules. You would need access to that rules option to be able to do it.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 06:20 PM	Hmmm... That a pretty fine hair. I think you'd find considerable variation among judges (if any agreed with you) on the distinction between the "BoA+Foo" rules item and the "crafting BoA+Foo" rules item. I'd have called it the "crafting" rules item and the "BoA+Foo" item myself. [Am I correct in thinking your view results in AR Access to "BoA+1+Foo" not being sufficient to craft "BoA+1+Foo" because you also need the "able to craft BoA+weird stuff" 'rules item'? -if not then we have miscommunication.]
Britt 02-10-07, 06:23 PM	[Am I correct in thinking your view results in AR Access to "BoA+1+Foo" not being sufficient to craft "BoA+1+Foo" because you also need the "able to craft BoA+weird stuff" 'rules item'? -if not then we have miscommunication.] Correct, unless the bracers were also included in the top box with the rules for crafting them spelled out. The problem with bracers+x+foo is that there are no Core rules for crafting them. They are a wondrous item mixed with armor abilities, so you have to extrapolate how to price them. They are not a piece of armor, where the crafting rules are clear and specific.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 06:40 PM	Okay... I see your position but I really don't think it's the obvious one let alone universal. Unless I'm very much mistaken the rules for crafting them are in the same publication as the item themselves (iirc they only exist as the rules for creating them -they're not something I've paid a lot of attention to so that may well be wrong.. If I hadn't seen it here from you, your view would never have occurred to me and I'd have dismissed it if suggested. That should at least be an indication that you need to make it a lot clearer officially if you want it to stick campaign-wide (or that I'm a nutter ;)). EDIT: How is this different from any other item that isn't listed in the Core Books?
Britt 02-10-07, 06:42 PM	Adding other stuff to BoA was an alternate rule in CAr or AE, something like that.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 07:11 PM	Adding other stuff to BoA was an alternate rule in CAr or AE, something like that. Ok Found it. AE p130. As I recalled there are no specific bracers listed there. There is only the rule. Thus it's an unlikely stretch to get access to the BoA+Foo without access to the rule that produces them. You can make that the rule for LG but you're going to have to be very clear about it and I can't see that there's much reason to make the effort.
Chris_Collins 02-10-07, 11:01 PM	OK, I've been reading diligently and think I've tried taking in too much info too quickly. What level does a PC have to be to craft Pearls of Power under the new guidelines? The PC I'm most concerned with has had access to POP's 1st to 3rd level, and is currently a 9th level caster. Thanks for any help, Chris C Bissel
JamesMaissen 02-10-07, 11:09 PM	Correct, unless the bracers were also included in the top box with the rules for crafting them spelled out. The problem with bracers+x+foo is that there are no Core rules for crafting them. They are a wondrous item mixed with armor abilities, so you have to extrapolate how to price them. They are not a piece of armor, where the crafting rules are clear and specific. I'm sorry I'm not understanding this. The only reference to Bracers +X 'foo' would be the A&EG which doesn't list specific items, but rather includes the general rule for their inclusion. There's no core rules for the item existing. So assuming for a second I'm purchasing it outright and not crafting and further assuming that it's 'below the line' (ie in the items found section) what book (or photocopy of a page) would I need to bring to the table? I would assume p130 of the A&EG, right? But that details how it would be crafted just as much as Steadfast Boots do on the same page. So where's the difference between the two? -James
Chris_Collins 02-10-07, 11:52 PM	There is no more caster level requirement for creating magic items unless the item specifically says so. As what the Pearls of Power say is that you have to be able to cast spells of the appropriate level, a 3rd level caster could make Pearls of Power 2nd if he had access to them. Just want to make sure this is accurate as I didn't see a triad tag on it....though XLR8DMadness seems to have this thing down pretty well :)
Timlagor 02-11-07, 06:17 PM	Adding other stuff to BoA was an alternate rule in CAr or AE, something like that. I've thought of another argument on this one. Either a) The AR references the A&EG by implication so you can do the crafting OR b) The AR item is an entirely new custom item and therefore can be crafted without further access. I thought I could see your point before but it's gone again. I just cannot see how you could possibly now be able to craft this item once you have it as a found item. [...and I still think it's bonkers not to be able to craft stuff that you have on your MIL]
Timlagor 02-11-07, 06:18 PM	OK, I've been reading diligently and think I've tried taking in too much info too quickly. What level does a PC have to be to craft Pearls of Power under the new guidelines? The PC I'm most concerned with has had access to POP's 1st to 3rd level, and is currently a 9th level caster. Thanks for any help, Chris C Bissel There is no level requirement to craft Pearls of Power under the new LGCS as proposed. You do still need to be 12th to make Ioun Stones because it says so in the item description but that is the only way items have CL requirements now.
erickim 02-12-07, 04:55 PM	Can you still wands and/or scrolls to craft? This is a tricky situtation since most people don't think of sorcerers, bards or favored souls as crafting wondrous items, nor do a lot of people play them. How is crafting going to change for them since it isn't as straight forward as with clerics or wizards? Eric Kim
MerricB 02-12-07, 08:03 PM	Seeking clarification: A character has a +1 longsword. He gains access to a +1 holy longsword. That character can upgrade his +1 longsword to a +1 holy longsword. Can that character later upgrade his +1 holy longsword to a +2 holy longsword? Can a character with that access upgrade his +2 longsword to a +2 holy longsword? (This purchasing the upgrade, not crafting). Cheers!
Timlagor 02-12-07, 09:59 PM	Yes: because +1 Holy Longsword is a standard item and you have access to upgrace the enhancement. No, I don't think so ... but the rules for this don't make much sense to me. I'm hoping that the final release LGCS will make this issue clearer: there was some discussion of this confusion and it certainly became clear that the rules were not clear as written. EDIT: (if crafting the answer would be an easy 'yes' to both)
MerricB 02-14-07, 01:02 AM	Alas, crafting is not an option for this group. I don't think we actually have problems with the upgrade rulse, but it's good to know how they actually work. Three parts of RHoD to go! Cheers!
Trollios 02-14-07, 10:32 AM	Can I craft something I no longer have access to? For example I received adventure access to a say a Horn of Blasting, 5 modules have gone by, can I still craft a Horn of Blasting or do I have to do it while I have access? (I know this isn't 597 specific, but I just got CWI)
Timlagor 02-14-07, 03:00 PM	You can still craft it if it was in the 'items found' section of an AR even if the access has since run out (provided you meet the other requirements for crafting it).
clannagh 02-14-07, 10:19 PM	OK i understand most of it ... The one that I havent been able to nut out is this one -- If you get access to a +2 holy longsword can you use that access to pay a NPC to upgrade your +1 longsword to be a +1 holy longsword ??? My assumption is NO .. but just checking.
pedr 02-14-07, 10:28 PM	No, I don't think so. You can only upgrade to something specific to which you have access. As you don't have access to a +1 holy longsword you can't get someone to upgrade it for you. A crafter, on the other hand, would be able to upgrade the weapon as they have now gained access to 'holy'.
Rerednaw 02-15-07, 10:27 AM	OK i understand most of it ... The one that I havent been able to nut out is this one -- If you get access to a +2 holy longsword can you use that access to pay a NPC to upgrade your +1 longsword to be a +1 holy longsword ??? My assumption is NO .. but just checking. My opinion? I'd say yes because weapon enhancements of +1 to +5 are core. So you could: Upgrade your longsword from +1 to +2 (core access) Upgrade your +2 longsword to a +2 holy longsword (AR access).
bitznarf 02-15-07, 11:03 AM	Right, but you couldn't do directly from +1 to +1 holy. A stop would have to be made at +2, then +2 holy.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 01:37 PM	If you have a +2 longsword and access to a +1 holy longsword, however, it appears that you can't 'downgrade' to a +1 and then upgrade to a +2, holy. The only way to get the +2, holy, would be to straight up buy the +1 holy longsword and upgrade it. This is a bit of a pain. My advice would be to keep the plusses on your main weapon as low as possible, if you're hoping to get good access. Named enchantments are generally better than straight plusses on weapons, anyway.
Howie23 02-15-07, 03:39 PM	If you have a +2 longsword and access to a +1 holy longsword, however, it appears that you can't 'downgrade' to a +1 and then upgrade to a +2, holy. The only way to get the +2, holy, would be to straight up buy the +1 holy longsword and upgrade it. This is a bit of a pain. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that to purchase an upgrade to a +2 holy longsword, you would need explicit access to a +2 holy longsword. Access to +1 holy longsword, and Appendix 4 access to +2 don't combine to allow +2 holy longsword. David
rogerd 02-15-07, 05:14 PM	OK, I've been reading diligently and think I've tried taking in too much info too quickly. What level does a PC have to be to craft Pearls of Power under the new guidelines? The PC I'm most concerned with has had access to POP's 1st to 3rd level, and is currently a 9th level caster. Thanks for any help, Chris C Bissel As another poster noted, there is no level requirement, however, according to the SRD, the requirement is "Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled." This does place an indirect level requirement on it, but if it's useful to you, you can craft it. Roger
MerricB 02-15-07, 06:19 PM	I may be wrong, but my understanding is that to purchase an upgrade to a +2 holy longsword, you would need explicit access to a +2 holy longsword. Access to +1 holy longsword, and Appendix 4 access to +2 don't combine to allow +2 holy longsword. Whack! Whack! Whack! Whack! *ow!* (Merric stops hitting his head against the wall, and rubs it). Looking at the text of the description (page 16), I think you may well be right. The upgrade may be done if... "they own the lesser item and have access to purchase the greater item." The access seems to be (in my example earlier) to the following versions of the longsword: * +1 longsword, +2 longsword, +3 longsword, +4 longsword, +5 longsword (LGCS, pg26) * +1 holy longsword (AR item) So you can only upgrade to one of the longswords listed. Cheers!
chesspiece 02-16-07, 05:01 PM	[QUOTE=MerricB;11499781]The upgrade may be done if... "they own the lesser item and have access to purchase the greater item." The access seems to be (in my example earlier) to the following versions of the longsword: * +1 longsword, +2 longsword, +3 longsword, +4 longsword, +5 longsword (LGCS, pg26) * +1 holy longsword (AR item) QUOTE] Open Items "+1 to +5 enhancement bonuses for weapons, armor, and shields" They didn't say weapons... with +1 to +5 enhancement bonuses. The LGCS wording implies that enhancement upgrades are open. Similar to those favours that allowed upgrading the enhancement +. In which case, you should add: * +1 XXX longsword, +2 XXX longsword, +3 XXX longsword, +4 XXX longsword, +5 XXX longsword (LGCS, pg26) provided that you have a XXX longsword. (note that you can't reduce the enhancement +)
Alphastream1 02-20-07, 03:36 PM	Ok, so it seems from user comments (though nothing official) that if you have a +2 longsword, and you find on the AR a +1 Holy Longsword, you cannot upgrade your +2 longsword to a +2 Holy Longsword. What about having a different material? If I have a +1 adamantine longsword, and I find a +1 holy longsword, can I now upgrade the +1 adamantine longsword to be a +1 adamantine holy longsword? Edit -> I think yes, based on the latest doc revisions, which say different materials still qualify as "standard". It isn't 100% clear, but there would be no reason for them to mention mithral and adamantine in the examples if that were not the case. Thanks, Teos
Lightblade 02-20-07, 04:24 PM	On a similar vein, are composite longbows with different strength bonuses considered the same item? IE if i find a +1 Holy Composite Longbow (+2 str), can i upgrade my +1 Composite Longbow (+3 str) with Holy?
jstorrie 02-20-07, 04:26 PM	Alphastream1: It seems not. Make sure you know what you're getting into if you decide to use a special material weapon, as you'll be relying mostly on favour upgrades.
Britt 02-20-07, 05:18 PM	A +1 longsword is a different base item from a +1 adamantine longsword. They are both standard items, so you could make both of them +2, but finding a +1 holy steel longsword would not allow you to upgrade a +1 adamantine longsword. The higher version can only differ from the lower version in the upgrading ability. If there is anything else different, it's not an upgrade.
MerricB 02-20-07, 06:11 PM	A +1 longsword is a different base item from a +1 adamantine longsword. They are both standard items, so you could make both of them +2, but finding a +1 holy steel longsword would not allow you to upgrade a +1 adamantine longsword. The higher version can only differ from the lower version in the upgrading ability. If there is anything else different, it's not an upgrade. So, you can make a +2 holy steel longsword if you had a +1 holy steel longsword? Cheers!
Britt 02-20-07, 06:13 PM	So, you can make a +2 holy steel longsword if you had a +1 holy steel longsword? Cheers! I'm checking on how we want to handle that.
MerricB 02-20-07, 06:15 PM	I'm checking on how we want to handle that. Thank you muchly, Britt. Cheers!
gomeztoo 02-21-07, 02:22 PM	Ok, I still don't get the whole thing about what's standard and what's not when it comes to upgrades. It seems there is a difference between crafting upgrades and purchase upgrades, too. So, assuming I have access to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2, can I: - Upgrade Gloves of Dexterity +2 to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2, through purchase ? - same question when crafting ? - Upgrade Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2 to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4, through purchase, assuming I have access to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4? - same question when crafting ? - Upgrade Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2 to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4, through purchase, assuming I do NOT have access to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4 (but I do to normal gloves +4)? - same question when crafting ?
Britt 02-21-07, 02:54 PM	Oops, did the post thinking bracers and typing about gloves. I'll redo it later.
gomeztoo 02-21-07, 03:12 PM	I think you mean gloves, not bracers :P (but I don't think there is a real difference between the two) Ok, I think I understand it now except for the following question/answer on the LGDM list: > 2) Can +1 bracers of light fortification (which would of course require > AR access) be upgraded to +2 bracers of light fortification through > purchase access? ========== Yes. ========== Which seemed to say something different. Maybe it was an error. I'll note btw that determing the difference in price between two items you have access to (and thus from which you know the price) is not terribly hard...
Britt 02-21-07, 03:14 PM	Oops, I just did the whole thread assuming bracers. I'll do it on gloves later, sorry. Off to play disc golf right now.
JohnduBois 02-21-07, 07:59 PM	I'm having a hard time digesting all this bracers of armor stuff, so I'm just going to ask point blank about what I care about - the favor my PC has. :P "As a special reward, Spoilery Patron Guy is willing to arrange the enhancement of armor or bracers. You may add light fortification by paying the difference in cost." My PC owns +1 light fortification bracers of armor due to this favor. 1. Does this make my bracers nonstandard? 2. May I upgrade my bracers with another +1 if I have CWI? 3. What do I need to get access to in order to upgrade this fortification to medium? Thanks.
Britt 02-21-07, 08:26 PM	"As a special reward, Spoilery Patron Guy is willing to arrange the enhancement of armor or bracers. You may add light fortification by paying the difference in cost." My PC owns +1 light fortification bracers of armor due to this favor. 1. Does this make my bracers nonstandard? 2. May I upgrade my bracers with another +1 if I have CWI? 3. What do I need to get access to in order to upgrade this fortification to medium? 1. No. 2. Yes. 3. Access to use the rules from AEG and access to moderate fortification.
Britt 02-21-07, 08:31 PM	Ok, here's the deal with upgrading bracers. The rules for adding Special Abilities are a sidebar entry in AEG. This means that it's a rule not in a core book, it's from a pre-3.5 book, and it's a sidebar entry. Those are three strikes against it being used in LG. As such, you need very specific access to be able to use those rules. Here is how this translates into the LG crafting rules: 1. Using the rules does not make the bracers nonstandard. They are still eligible for upgrades, assuming the upgrade is legal. 2. A crafter would need access to use the rules in AEG AND access to the upgrade they want to add to their bracers. 3. A non-crafter would need access to use the rules in AEG AND access to purchase an upgraded version of the bracers they currently own. 4. A crafter can upgrade the armor bonus on bracers that have previously used this favor, as long as the item is still standard. 5. A non-crafter would have to find specific access to bracers of X+Y and Z to be able to upgrade their bracers of X and Z. Remember that these rules are a sidebar entry from a pre-3.5, non-core book. If you have any doubt about whether you can use the rules, you better check first.
Britt 02-21-07, 08:34 PM	So, assuming I have access to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2, can I: - Upgrade Gloves of Dexterity +2 to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2, through purchase ? No. Glamered gloves of dexterity +x are nonstandard. You cannot upgrade from them or to them. - same question when crafting ? No. - Upgrade Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2 to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4, through purchase, assuming I have access to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4? No. - same question when crafting ? No. - Upgrade Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +2 to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4, through purchase, assuming I do NOT have access to Glamered Gloves of Dexterity +4 (but I do to normal gloves +4)? No. - same question when crafting ? No. It is possible you could see campaign documentation to an item like this along with campaign documentation allowing upgrade of the item. You would need specific documentation of that sort to be able to do any upgrading, though.
gomeztoo 02-22-07, 03:35 AM	Ok, but then we need a good definition of what determines an item as standard. I mean, glamered gloves of dexterity +x are nonstandard, but + x bracers of ligth fortification (which *seem* to be similar enough to the untrained eye) are standard. Now, I assume the latter is ' standard' because fortification is similar to a +X armor bonus upgrade, and rules for armor bonus upgrades on bracers is defined, while glamered enchantments on gloves isn't. The DC should probably clarify that, because I just spend two days figuring out what the difference was.
MerricB 02-24-07, 05:36 PM	...and I'm still not sure of whether a +1 holy longsword can be upgraded (not crafted) into a +2 holy longsword. Cheers!
jstorrie 02-25-07, 12:59 AM	Yes, you can always add more plusses to weapons or armor if you can afford it.
bitznarf 02-25-07, 01:01 AM	Yes, you can always add more plusses to weapons or armor if you can afford it. While this may be the intent, there is some grey in the current rule set, as Britt has said. I believe he intends to clear that up in the next DC.
mustafathered 02-28-07, 10:45 AM	From the LGCS 7.0.1 (597): You can craft weapon and armor enchantments if you have had access to purchase any item that has those enchantments from the Items Found section of any AR. I read this as a crafter that has had access to the oft-mentioned Longsword, holy, +1 can add the holy enhancement to any weapon (longsword, mace, whip, etc.) so long as the final product is a legal weapon (total bonus doesn't exceed what can be legally made with respect to caster level, all enhancements on final item are in access list, etc). If this is not the correct interpretation, could someone please provide a link to an official printable document stating the correct interpretation? I'm not trying to cause trouble - I'm trying to understand the rules before making my first LG character (that will eventually do some crafting) and am getting horribly confused. Thank you!
Timlagor 02-28-07, 12:21 PM	Musta: I think you're right. Most of this discussion regards a non-crafter using the rules for having something upgraded by an NPC.
mustafathered 02-28-07, 01:31 PM	Ah, ok, I think I understand now. So if I am a crafter (with appropriate feats, spells, etc) and I have access to a Longsword, holy, +1 (for example) then I can add (upgrade) the holy enhancement to my existing morningstar +2 (assuming I am of high enough caster level for the resulting +4 weapon) via MIC. However, if I walk into a store I would not be able to have this done for me. Thanks for clearing this up - it wasn't clear to me that most of this thread was explicity not about self-made MIC items.
Timlagor 02-28-07, 08:20 PM	I believe that to all be correct. You're welcome :)