Core Module complaint: Where to post? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Core Module complaint: Where to post? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Potato Weasel
02-12-07, 07:35 AM Sorry, but I just got some extra info on a core module I played recently that was... Well, almost extremely deadly, and it also seems, may have been obscenely badly checked for rules errors (two certain monsters using a prestige class they couldn't qualify for, with weapons that prestige class doesnt allow)

Is this the right forum? Or would I have to contact someone directly?

Sorry for the trouble.
pedr
02-12-07, 08:04 AM Contact Creighton Broadhurst, the Core Circle member. His email address is in the LGCS.

Alternatively contact the author. But first, see about getting hold of a copy of the module and checking it yourself; it may be that the judge misinterpreted it, or missed some text which made clear what was going on, or it was simply poorly worded rather than wrong. If it was wrong, then do contact people. It might be worth posting on the LGDMs yahoo group as well, with appropriate spoiler tags and long spaces (with '.'s at the start of each line as Yahoo truncates spaces in the message listing!)
Timlagor
02-12-07, 01:26 PM Is it the one with Dervishes dancing with Thinblades?
There's one with medium flyers trying to grapple and fly off with people on a fly-by without taking -20 on the grapple check (which would leave them at -3iirc) too.
catsclaw
02-12-07, 05:36 PM Is it the one with Dervishes dancing with Thinblades?If it's that one, later there are enemies riding warhorses without ranks in Ride or Handle Animal.
Howie23
02-12-07, 06:15 PM ..there are enemies riding warhorses without ranks in Ride or Handle Animal.

There is no requirement to have ranks in Ride or Handle Animal in order to ride a warhorse. It will limit their ability to do complicated or involved things, but that is all.

David
solbergb
02-12-07, 06:37 PM yeah, like staying on the horse when they're hit :)

DC5 to stay on. If they're low dex or lack a war saddle you sometimes get keystone cops actions when mounted people get attacked.

I think the funnier one was medium sized armored enemies on warponies. It's not clear if it is possible for medium critters to ride medium critters, but even if you play it as written, the warponies are so encumbered they are lowered to 30' movement and x3 run speed. The mounted guys aren't any faster than if they were just walking.
Howie23
02-12-07, 07:15 PM yeah, like staying on the horse when they're hit :)

DC5 to stay on. If they're low dex or lack a war saddle you sometimes get keystone cops actions when mounted people get attacked.

Yeah, I understand. My point was that you don't need the ranks to do basic stuff. My archer has Ride+6 w/o ranks..I suspect yours is around there too. :)

David
Potato Weasel
02-13-07, 04:54 AM Yep, it was about the dervish's. I got a hold of the mod and looked at em, and they are unbelievably done. Not just the insane class levels, but the amount of items, their skills are done incorrectly, it's just all around bad. Then there are the orcs later on. They have rapid shot. They have 8 dex. But, even that isnt as bad as how the dervii (dervishlets? dervinians?) were done.
jstorrie
02-16-07, 02:38 PM We didn't find the encounters particularly difficult, since our DM ruled that they couldn't use feats or prestige class features that they didn't have the prerequisites for... but this mod needs some serious error checking, stat. Those illegal dervishes were so pimped out that they took us from zero to over-cap, too.
Mithreinmaethor
02-16-07, 04:14 PM Would you have preferred that they corrected it from Thinblade to the Courtblade perhaps ? :)
jstorrie
02-16-07, 04:28 PM I would have preferred that the NPCs actually qualified for their Dervish levels, for a start...
Southernskies
02-16-07, 08:20 PM The bigger issue is that several items that NPCs had in the adventure did not have entries in the "New Rules Item" section.

Can't use the toys if they're not in the appendix (as the DM is only required to bring PHB, DMG, MM to the table). I am not required to bring the 10+ splat books just to prep one encounter that someone got lazy on the paperwork. :mad:

Oh, and they know a language that doesn't exist in LG... :rolleyes:
ithardin
02-16-07, 08:41 PM Enough, we're dancing close to spoilers here. I KNEW the instant I read the first post what module he was talking about. If I hadn't already played it I would be a little upset with youz guyz!
The_Jester
02-17-07, 09:52 AM Um... you played it so of course you know what mod they're talking about.

I haven't played it and I have no idea which mod to even begin looking for Dervish Thinblades. It's not like it'll be advertised and none (NONE) of the plot details have leaked out.
Samwise
02-19-07, 02:06 PM Creighton knows about the issues with the adventure.
I have no idea when there will be any changes posted, but the issues are known.

Sam Weiss
Core Reviewer
Timlagor
02-19-07, 08:16 PM I only brought up the Dervishes because there are other options ... though come to think of it those medium grapplers were actually in a Regional <no they weren't>
Potato Weasel
02-20-07, 06:32 AM Well, I think it's time to let this die as people have been informed, and the mod was actually really good for rp purposes, so i don't want to leak out any relevant details.

Thanks for the replies though.
boolean
02-23-07, 03:06 AM Creighton knows about the issues with the adventure.
I have no idea when there will be any changes posted, but the issues are known.

Looks at module:

"Circle Reviewer: Creighton Broadhurst"

Shouldn't he have known about these issues before the module was released?

What exactly does a "reviewer" do? This module had three, yet they didn't even catch simple formatting errors. There's plenty of places in the text where boxed text isn't marked as such, and vice versa.
Southernskies
02-23-07, 03:19 AM One reason for the formatting errors can be the author not correctly using Styles.

While it looks correct while editing in word, when it is converted to a PDF, the font and styles are converted to a unique LG version.

This can mean sudden changes in the formatting (hence why writers need to actually understand what they are doing when using the templates.)
Timlagor
02-23-07, 05:00 AM Are you saying that no one reviews it after it's been converted to pdf?

..and what's that got to do with flagrant rules breaking?
Samwise
02-23-07, 12:12 PM The whole concept of an "error" is that someone didn't know about it before. Obviously if he had, or if Chris or I know about an error before the adventure is turned into a PDF, we correct it.

As for reviewing after, again, we try, but we don't always catch every single error. And as Southernskies noted, an author not using the right template (for any of a number of reasons) can cause significant problems and delays.

Rules breaking is a difficult category, with a lot of reasons. Sometimes people assume a rule works a certain way, sometimes someone forgets that there is in fact a rule for something, and sometimes the LGCS gets changed after an adventure is released and something is no longer legal.

All of which still leaves the fact that there are errors, and that none of us like having errors, and that fixing them is not as simple as just telling us about them. But we do want to know about them, and we will do what we can to correct them.
Madfox11
02-24-07, 08:06 AM Are you saying that no one reviews it after it's been converted to pdf?

..and what's that got to do with flagrant rules breaking?

We always try to do so, but there are hundreds of small things that do get caught, and once in a while people are bound to miss something. While we might strife to be rules encyclopedia, we don't know all the rules from memory either and hence we might miss things that look all too obvious to others. Stuff like Rapid Shot is particular easy to miss, since it is such a common feat that people forget it actually has requirements. You might be surprised how often I have to tell people that you cannot take Spring Attack on level 3, or Weapon Finesse on level 1 (as a rogue anyway) ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Potato Weasel 02-12-07, 07:35 AM	Sorry, but I just got some extra info on a core module I played recently that was... Well, almost extremely deadly, and it also seems, may have been obscenely badly checked for rules errors (two certain monsters using a prestige class they couldn't qualify for, with weapons that prestige class doesnt allow) Is this the right forum? Or would I have to contact someone directly? Sorry for the trouble.
pedr 02-12-07, 08:04 AM	Contact Creighton Broadhurst, the Core Circle member. His email address is in the LGCS. Alternatively contact the author. But first, see about getting hold of a copy of the module and checking it yourself; it may be that the judge misinterpreted it, or missed some text which made clear what was going on, or it was simply poorly worded rather than wrong. If it was wrong, then do contact people. It might be worth posting on the LGDMs yahoo group as well, with appropriate spoiler tags and long spaces (with '.'s at the start of each line as Yahoo truncates spaces in the message listing!)
Timlagor 02-12-07, 01:26 PM	Is it the one with Dervishes dancing with Thinblades? There's one with medium flyers trying to grapple and fly off with people on a fly-by without taking -20 on the grapple check (which would leave them at -3iirc) too.
catsclaw 02-12-07, 05:36 PM	Is it the one with Dervishes dancing with Thinblades?If it's that one, later there are enemies riding warhorses without ranks in Ride or Handle Animal.
Howie23 02-12-07, 06:15 PM	..there are enemies riding warhorses without ranks in Ride or Handle Animal. There is no requirement to have ranks in Ride or Handle Animal in order to ride a warhorse. It will limit their ability to do complicated or involved things, but that is all. David
solbergb 02-12-07, 06:37 PM	yeah, like staying on the horse when they're hit :) DC5 to stay on. If they're low dex or lack a war saddle you sometimes get keystone cops actions when mounted people get attacked. I think the funnier one was medium sized armored enemies on warponies. It's not clear if it is possible for medium critters to ride medium critters, but even if you play it as written, the warponies are so encumbered they are lowered to 30' movement and x3 run speed. The mounted guys aren't any faster than if they were just walking.
Howie23 02-12-07, 07:15 PM	yeah, like staying on the horse when they're hit :) DC5 to stay on. If they're low dex or lack a war saddle you sometimes get keystone cops actions when mounted people get attacked. Yeah, I understand. My point was that you don't need the ranks to do basic stuff. My archer has Ride+6 w/o ranks..I suspect yours is around there too. :) David
Potato Weasel 02-13-07, 04:54 AM	Yep, it was about the dervish's. I got a hold of the mod and looked at em, and they are unbelievably done. Not just the insane class levels, but the amount of items, their skills are done incorrectly, it's just all around bad. Then there are the orcs later on. They have rapid shot. They have 8 dex. But, even that isnt as bad as how the dervii (dervishlets? dervinians?) were done.
jstorrie 02-16-07, 02:38 PM	We didn't find the encounters particularly difficult, since our DM ruled that they couldn't use feats or prestige class features that they didn't have the prerequisites for... but this mod needs some serious error checking, stat. Those illegal dervishes were so pimped out that they took us from zero to over-cap, too.
Mithreinmaethor 02-16-07, 04:14 PM	Would you have preferred that they corrected it from Thinblade to the Courtblade perhaps ? :)
jstorrie 02-16-07, 04:28 PM	I would have preferred that the NPCs actually qualified for their Dervish levels, for a start...
Southernskies 02-16-07, 08:20 PM	The bigger issue is that several items that NPCs had in the adventure did not have entries in the "New Rules Item" section. Can't use the toys if they're not in the appendix (as the DM is only required to bring PHB, DMG, MM to the table). I am not required to bring the 10+ splat books just to prep one encounter that someone got lazy on the paperwork. :mad: Oh, and they know a language that doesn't exist in LG... :rolleyes:
ithardin 02-16-07, 08:41 PM	Enough, we're dancing close to spoilers here. I KNEW the instant I read the first post what module he was talking about. If I hadn't already played it I would be a little upset with youz guyz!
The_Jester 02-17-07, 09:52 AM	Um... you played it so of course you know what mod they're talking about. I haven't played it and I have no idea which mod to even begin looking for Dervish Thinblades. It's not like it'll be advertised and none (NONE) of the plot details have leaked out.
Samwise 02-19-07, 02:06 PM	Creighton knows about the issues with the adventure. I have no idea when there will be any changes posted, but the issues are known. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Timlagor 02-19-07, 08:16 PM	I only brought up the Dervishes because there are other options ... though come to think of it those medium grapplers were actually in a Regional <no they weren't>
Potato Weasel 02-20-07, 06:32 AM	Well, I think it's time to let this die as people have been informed, and the mod was actually really good for rp purposes, so i don't want to leak out any relevant details. Thanks for the replies though.
boolean 02-23-07, 03:06 AM	Creighton knows about the issues with the adventure. I have no idea when there will be any changes posted, but the issues are known. Looks at module: "Circle Reviewer: Creighton Broadhurst" Shouldn't he have known about these issues before the module was released? What exactly does a "reviewer" do? This module had three, yet they didn't even catch simple formatting errors. There's plenty of places in the text where boxed text isn't marked as such, and vice versa.
Southernskies 02-23-07, 03:19 AM	One reason for the formatting errors can be the author not correctly using Styles. While it looks correct while editing in word, when it is converted to a PDF, the font and styles are converted to a unique LG version. This can mean sudden changes in the formatting (hence why writers need to actually understand what they are doing when using the templates.)
Timlagor 02-23-07, 05:00 AM	Are you saying that no one reviews it after it's been converted to pdf? ..and what's that got to do with flagrant rules breaking?
Samwise 02-23-07, 12:12 PM	The whole concept of an "error" is that someone didn't know about it before. Obviously if he had, or if Chris or I know about an error before the adventure is turned into a PDF, we correct it. As for reviewing after, again, we try, but we don't always catch every single error. And as Southernskies noted, an author not using the right template (for any of a number of reasons) can cause significant problems and delays. Rules breaking is a difficult category, with a lot of reasons. Sometimes people assume a rule works a certain way, sometimes someone forgets that there is in fact a rule for something, and sometimes the LGCS gets changed after an adventure is released and something is no longer legal. All of which still leaves the fact that there are errors, and that none of us like having errors, and that fixing them is not as simple as just telling us about them. But we do want to know about them, and we will do what we can to correct them.
Madfox11 02-24-07, 08:06 AM	Are you saying that no one reviews it after it's been converted to pdf? ..and what's that got to do with flagrant rules breaking? We always try to do so, but there are hundreds of small things that do get caught, and once in a while people are bound to miss something. While we might strife to be rules encyclopedia, we don't know all the rules from memory either and hence we might miss things that look all too obvious to others. Stuff like Rapid Shot is particular easy to miss, since it is such a common feat that people forget it actually has requirements. You might be surprised how often I have to tell people that you cannot take Spring Attack on level 3, or Weapon Finesse on level 1 (as a rogue anyway) ;)