Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 11-10-06, 01:07 AM	Ok, the next character I'm leveling up is a halfling outrider with druid levels, and I had a couple questions about mounted combat that I can't find explanations for in the PHB. 1. What happens if your mount grapples or is grappled? My leopard has improved grab, so if the circumstances are nice I might have him try to grapple something. What exactly happens? 2. A leopard has a climb speed of 20ft. So, while I'm mounted, I decide to send the leopard up a wall and to the ceiling. Do I always stay in the saddle, is it a % chance, can he even do it if I don't have that movement type? Thanks in Advance
Howie23 11-10-06, 02:58 AM	Ok, the next character I'm leveling up is a halfling outrider with druid levels, and I had a couple questions about mounted combat that I can't find explanations for in the PHB. 1. What happens if your mount grapples or is grappled? My leopard has improved grab, so if the circumstances are nice I might have him try to grapple something. What exactly happens? First, everything enters the grey zone about entering a square with non-grappled participants. :) Second, how do you get him to differentiate his attacks so as to grapple sometimes and not at others? David
Gwumph 11-10-06, 03:23 AM	No idea on the whole grappling thing As to howies reply, the mount doesn't have to grapple if it doesn't want to. For climbing walls, trees etc. Buy an exotic saddle, says it similiar to one used for flying mounts (at least in the actual part u sit in) ad you are good to go. If Pc can ride around in mounts that fly, i can't see any reason why you can't ride around in a mount that climbs
kjenks 11-10-06, 07:44 AM	Ok, the next character I'm leveling up is a halfling outrider with druid levels, and I had a couple questions about mounted combat that I can't find explanations for in the PHB. First of all, good job at searching the PHB before posting here. I wish everyone would do that. 1. What happens if your mount grapples or is grappled? My leopard has improved grab, so if the circumstances are nice I might have him try to grapple something. What exactly happens? If your mount grapples another creature, nothing unusual happens. After a successful Step 4, your mount moves into its opponent's square, taking you with it. The three of you are now sharing the same square. If an attacker tries to grapple you or your mount, however, something non-intuitive happens. The attacker can't complete Step 4, so the grapple fails. If the attacker is grappling your mount, it can't complete Step 4 because it's not allowed to share the same square with the rider. If the attacker is grappling the rider, it can't complete Step 4 because it's not allowed to share the same square with the mount. There are ways for an attacker to grapple a mount or a rider, but it's not a simple as a normal grapple attack. But your leopard's Improved Grab is a bit different from a standard grapple. In Improved Grab, the defender is dragged into the grabber's square. Contrast that with Step 4, where the grappler moves into the defender's square. But Improved Grab probably won't come up much for your medium-sized leopard since it only works on opponents smaller than the attacker. 2. A leopard has a climb speed of 20ft. So, while I'm mounted, I decide to send the leopard up a wall and to the ceiling. Do I always stay in the saddle, is it a % chance, can he even do it if I don't have that movement type? You always stay in the saddle. A DM might try to make up his own rules here, but there are no Core rules stating that you'd fall out of your saddle while your mount does unusual things.
trollbill 11-10-06, 09:25 AM	As to howies reply, the mount doesn't have to grapple if it doesn't want to. Not exactly the correct reply. The animal will use whatever attack it would normally use. In this case, it would normally attempt to grapple if ordered to attack. It is just a 2 Intelligence animal, after all. Of course, you could argue that part of its riding 'trick' is that it won't do so with a rider on its back. But then how do you get it to grapple when its mounted and you actually want it to? It's not whether the mount wants to, its whether the rider/handler wants or doesn't want it to. How does he instruct the animal companion on whether or not to grapple? If you look at how unusual attacks are generally handled in 3.5, it would appear that specific instructions that go against natural patterns are handled via the use of tricks. In a normal game, a DM could rule that grapple/don't grapple could be one of the tricks an animal companions could learn. But in LG you are limited to just those tricks listed in the rules. Since you can't do this, then the grapple is either always on or always off unless you have some way of directly communicating with the animal (such as speak with animals). This issue is essentially a DM's call, so expect a lot of table varience and assume a worse case scenario.
kjenks 11-10-06, 09:39 AM	But then how do you get it to grapple when its mounted and you actually want it to? Push.
budleiser 11-10-06, 06:03 PM	First of all, good job at searching the PHB before posting here. I wish everyone would do that. If your mount grapples another creature, nothing unusual happens. After a successful Step 4, your mount moves into its opponent's square, taking you with it. The three of you are now sharing the same square. If an attacker tries to grapple you or your mount, however, something non-intuitive happens. The attacker can't complete Step 4, so the grapple fails. If the attacker is grappling your mount, it can't complete Step 4 because it's not allowed to share the same square with the rider. If the attacker is grappling the rider, it can't complete Step 4 because it's not allowed to share the same square with the mount. There are ways for an attacker to grapple a mount or a rider, but it's not a simple as a normal grapple attack. But your leopard's Improved Grab is a bit different from a standard grapple. In Improved Grab, the defender is dragged into the grabber's square. Contrast that with Step 4, where the grappler moves into the defender's square. But Improved Grab probably won't come up much for your medium-sized leopard since it only works on opponents smaller than the attacker. You always stay in the saddle. A DM might try to make up his own rules here, but there are no Core rules stating that you'd fall out of your saddle while your mount does unusual things. Im not trying to contradict Kjenks take on the rules, however I will say that most DM's have ruled that you fall from Saddle. (I ride Dire Bat). Since your halfling on medium mount take 0D6. However the next question is...Do you fall prone? To fall upright would it be: Reflex save, ride check, balance check, or tumble check? TrollBill is probably right in stating expect table variance... However I have yet to have a DM rule that I could not have trained him to grapple. To end grapple is the same trick to stop attack, so you don't need to add another trick. Also argue the point that grab/grapple is not an unusual attack. Getting your leopard to Disarm however might be ;) BTW welcome to the wonderful world of Mounted Halflings! What region are you in?
Alpha_Nerd 11-10-06, 06:24 PM	I'm in the Bandit Kingdoms. The character is pretty fresh so he's a mod from 2nd but I hope to play him a bunch next year as my wizard will be doing RHoD
budleiser 11-10-06, 07:20 PM	I'm in the Bandit Kingdoms. The character is pretty fresh so he's a mod from 2nd but I hope to play him a bunch next year as my wizard will be doing RHoD Kool beans. I decided not to go into Outrider levels as the only feat in there worth a damn was unbroken charge. Instead I just dipped one level into beastmaster and got Dire Bat. Not much gets in the way of my charge lanes now ;) (And im much harder to hit)
Howie23 11-10-06, 08:18 PM	However I have yet to have a DM rule that I could not have trained him to grapple. To end grapple is the same trick to stop attack, so you don't need to add another trick. Also argue the point that grab/grapple is not an unusual attack. Grapple via Improved Grab is a normal attack sequence for a leopard. It works against Small creatures only. Grapple vs. a medium or larger creature is not a normal attack sequence for a leopard. Doing so would require a grapple via touch attack, rather than Improved Grab, and provokes an AoO. Hold is a trick available via AR access from Complete Adventurer. Ordering the creature to attack to grapple is effectively using Hold..that is, using a resource you don't have (or at least haven't indicated you have). As Ken mentioned, a push (move action for animal companion, DC25) is the method provided within the rules for making this happen if the animal isn't trained with the appropriate trick. Edit: If you don't see Hold as being the trick you're looking for, the point remains the same: Attack gets the critter to attack. It doesn't specify how it will attack. Attacking with a normal attack sequence is reasonable. Differentiating attacks is a push. If you haven't experienced DMs enforcing this, it is either a case of lack of knowledge, or local culture to not care about this aspect of the game. David
budleiser 11-10-06, 09:52 PM	If you haven't experienced DMs enforcing this, it is either a case of lack of knowledge, or local culture to not care about this aspect of the game. David Wow, that last little bit was a tad rude. Congrats on the unnecessary jab. GJ.
Howie23 11-10-06, 10:40 PM	Wow, that last little bit was a tad rude. Congrats on the unnecessary jab. GJ. It wasn't intended as rude, and I think it is a stretch to characterize it that way. My apologies if I was too direct. Animals, particularly companions, are subject to a lot of variance. Usually, this is a case of judges either not knowing the rules, or not caring about them as trivial. It tends to be cultural across a playing group or region. That isn't insulting or rude. It is an attempt to explain why someone might consistently see something that is at variance with the basic mechanics of the game. David
budleiser 11-10-06, 10:48 PM	It wasn't intended as rude, and I think it is a stretch to characterize it that way. My apologies if I was too direct. Animals, particularly companions, are subject to a lot of variance. Usually, this is a case of judges either not knowing the rules, or not caring about them as trivial. It tends to be cultural across a playing group or region. That isn't insulting or rude. It is an attempt to explain why someone might consistently see something that is at variance with the basic mechanics of the game. David My bad then. I looked up hold it definately is the trick needed for an animal to grapple. I had been trying to use my bat to grapple a wizard, and an escaping rogue. Both times had failed actually once because an AOO stopped it, the other the bat just plain missed on the touch attack. The idea was great I thought, but now that im sure its not legal ill stick to my original tactic. Skewer first ask questions later.
Howie23 11-10-06, 11:15 PM	I had been trying to use my bat to grapple ...The idea was great I thought, but now that im sure its not legal ill stick to my original tactic. It's legal, it just needs a Handle Animal DC25 to push him to do it. The animal can do things that it isn't trained for, it's just harder. :) If you have a dip in beastmaster, you're probably sitting on at least a Handle Animal +10 (assuming Charisma is dump). +4 with animal companion, and you're at least 50% to get him to do it. I've been looking at putting my elven archer on a dire bat when he takes Rgr8 at 10th....have to double check the weight capacity. :) David
budleiser 11-11-06, 08:02 AM	It's legal, it just needs a Handle Animal DC25 to push him to do it. The animal can do things that it isn't trained for, it's just harder. :) If you have a dip in beastmaster, you're probably sitting on at least a Handle Animal +10 (assuming Charisma is dump). +4 with animal companion, and you're at least 50% to get him to do it. I've been looking at putting my elven archer on a dire bat when he takes Rgr8 at 10th....have to double check the weight capacity. :) David 172 I think, the only issue that might come up is if someone ray of enfeeblements or reduce animal on the bat. Didn't realize there was a +4 for because its Animal Companion. And its a skill focus (+3 right) handle animal with min 8 ranks (I think im not looking at my sheets at the moment), so thats +11, +4 for A.C., +3 for my charisma, so im at +18 for DC25. +19 once I buy cloak. But its still a move action with a chance of failure so I still might not use it. And thats before the chance of failure of the touch then grapple. So maybe someday when im staggered and the wizard is still up ill remember to push to grapple. ;)
_m_ 11-12-06, 06:44 PM	um... whilst leapoards have a climb speed, you cant simply climb an ordinary wall with them. trees, rocky slopes, big furry animals, sure why not, but not normal walls. a spider with a climb speed could basically climb anything, but just because your cat has a climb speed, dosent make everything open ground.
Alpha_Nerd 11-13-06, 12:00 AM	I don't see why a leopard can't climb a wall. I mean, they didn't just give him a bonus to climb, they gave him a freaking climb movement speed, which must mean he's a very able climber.
_m_ 11-13-06, 12:11 AM	aye, she can be an able climber all she wants, but without opposoble thumbs... it aint gonna happen. im happy for it to climb most surfaces, but it simply isnt physically possible for it to hold on to a solid wall. also, if you not that the first post mentioned walking on the ceiling... which would also be impossible. if being up high on roofs and such is your thing, get a flying mount. as for climbing, use spider climb to get up onto roofs and such, or only climb surfaces it that would be climbable.
clik_ml 11-13-06, 03:07 AM	um... whilst leapoards have a climb speed, you cant simply climb an ordinary wall with them. trees, rocky slopes, big furry animals, sure why not, but not normal walls. a spider with a climb speed could basically climb anything, but just because your cat has a climb speed, dosent make everything open ground. While this would make sense if we're talking about reality, we're actually talking DnD rules, and in that realm, climb speed is a climb speed is a climb speed. This means leopards and anything else with a climb speed can climb anything that any other critter with just a climb speed could normally scale. And that includes walls (but does not include perfectly flat vertical surfaces, even for spiders). And for the record, a wall with respect to climbing in DnD is defined as any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more. A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing. So as far as rules go there is certainly a mechanic that ensures that they have the capability to do all sorts of crazy climbing jutsus. And for an intresting tid bit, I have seen one of my cats as a kitten with a body less than 6 inches long, wall jump (boucning from wall to wall) up a corner of two flat concrete walls in order to climb up at least a height of 7 feet. I wouldn't have believed that little kitten could move like jackie chan up the walls unless I had seen it. It was a real pain getting her out of the ceiling and thankfully she has learned her lesson and not repeated that act.
_m_ 11-13-06, 05:07 PM	thats so CUTE! :dancin: but meh, i dont care if you leapord clibs a rope ladder, i was just, once again, amused by the rules. besides, my companion animal mount thing can fly, and walk through walls, so im not really that jealous.
Ancillary 11-13-06, 05:22 PM	A cat can climb a wall, it has claws. Weight bearing claws are much more useful than opposable thumbs when climbing walls. Having someone riding you in the real world would make it much harder but that has no effect in Dnd as long as you are still in encumbrance limits. To see how difficult a surface a creature can climb using a climb speed you look at their take 10 number.
Cynric 11-13-06, 05:40 PM	ok. Reading this has remineded me of a thought that I had for my druid\beasmaster. If I had a rogue cohort ( Halfling twf with daggers) and my tiger charged with halfling mounted on back of it. When the tiger Grapples, which is a stadard thing wherever possible, the halfling falls of making whatever check, ride tumble, jump as the DM detemines. What sort of action does the halfling take to do so. The reason I ask is that if he fell off as a free action landing next to the tiger, would he be able to make a full attack against the now grappled opponent with sneak attacks? Just something I was thinking about.
budleiser 11-15-06, 11:58 PM	ok. Reading this has remineded me of a thought that I had for my druid\beasmaster. If I had a rogue cohort ( Halfling twf with daggers) and my tiger charged with halfling mounted on back of it. When the tiger Grapples, which is a stadard thing wherever possible, the halfling falls of making whatever check, ride tumble, jump as the DM detemines. What sort of action does the halfling take to do so. The reason I ask is that if he fell off as a free action landing next to the tiger, would he be able to make a full attack against the now grappled opponent with sneak attacks? Just something I was thinking about. Enter the phrase "Table Variance" I hadn't thought of it as a jump check. Tumble Jump Balance Ride Reflex Save
clik_ml 11-16-06, 03:26 AM	ok. Reading this has remineded me of a thought that I had for my druid\beasmaster. If I had a rogue cohort ( Halfling twf with daggers) and my tiger charged with halfling mounted on back of it. When the tiger Grapples, which is a stadard thing wherever possible, the halfling falls of making whatever check, ride tumble, jump as the DM detemines. What sort of action does the halfling take to do so. Using the ride skill to successfully dismount as a free action is a DC 20 check. If you fail the check, it requires a move action to dismount. This is found both in the ride skill description and also in combat actions (under Mount/Dismount Speed). Expect zero table variation on this part (i.e any variation you find is due to the judge not knowing how it works, and a quick citing will clear it up). The reason I ask is that if he fell off as a free action landing next to the tiger, would he be able to make a full attack against the now grappled opponent with sneak attacks? Even if you dismounted as a free action, you do not get to take a full attack (barring a special ability from a prestige class, which would have its own mechanics spelled out). The reason for this is found in the special attacks/mounted combat section. www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat[/url] ] If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted. So your hypothetical halfling on a tiger could (assuming all skill checks are met) ride the tiger as it closes and grapples, and fast dismount and get off one sneak attack. In an ideal world there should also be no table variation for this either, since it is pretty straightforward.
Lupo 11-16-06, 03:36 AM	Using the ride skill to successfully dismount as a free action is a DC 20 check. If you fail the check, it requires a move action to dismount. This is found both in the ride skill description and also in combat actions (under Mount/Dismount Speed). Expect zero table variation on this part (i.e any variation you find is due to the judge not knowing how it works, and a quick citing will clear it up). Even if you dismounted as a free action, you do not get to take a full attack (barring a special ability from a prestige class, which would have its own mechanics spelled out). The reason for this is found in the special attacks/mounted combat section. So your hypothetical halfling on a tiger could (assuming all skill checks are met) ride the tiger as it closes and grapples, and fast dismount and get off one sneak attack. In an ideal world there should also be no table variation for this either, since it is pretty straightforward. quick dismount is only an option when your mount is not more than one size category larger than you. so a halfling (small) riding a tiger (large) will always use up a move action to dismount. ciao martin m.
clik_ml 11-16-06, 03:38 AM	quick dismount is only an option when your mount is not more than one size category larger than you. so a halfling (small) riding a tiger (large) will always use up a move action to dismount. ciao martin m. Whoops, too right. Thanks for the catch.
chesspiece 11-16-06, 11:31 AM	quick dismount is only an option when your mount is not more than one size category larger than you. so a halfling (small) riding a tiger (large) will always use up a move action to dismount. But because you're probably limited to a single attack already, using your Move Action isn't a big deal. Right? I'm trying to decide how I'd handle a grappling mount at the table. Table variation, YMMV, rules are only being suggested, blah blah blah. I'd just like to check my thought process in case this ever comes up. First, I'd probably say a rider usually can't be grappled by an opponent. You'd have to either Trip (dismount) the rider before grappling them, or else you'd have to grapple the mount. If the mount is >=2 sizes larger than the rider and grappler (men grappling on an elephant), it's probably okay. I just can't picture 2 halflings grappling on top of a riding dog. If someone wanted to simulate the movies (jump on an opponent's horse, throw enemy off of horse, ride away on horse) it wouldn't use grappling. I'd require a Ride check (DC20to mount; might want to increase DC or add an opposed Ride check) then a Trip check (dismount opponent). Second, if a mount grapples / is grappled by an opponent and the grapple is maintained at the end of the initiative, I'd automatically add the rider into the grapple. Why? Because you're attached (saddle / holding on) to the mount and the mount is now attached (grappling) the opponent. An exception would be if the mount were using a -20 Improved Grap "not grappled" option. Of course, this could be bad for the halfling on the cougar. But I'd recommend the PC dismount before the end of their Initiative. Critiques?