Craft Arms and Armour [Archive] - Wizards Community

Craft Arms and Armour [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ballaratgreg
02-02-06, 05:53 AM Hi Chris

In magic item creation for Rods, Staffs, Wondrous Items and Rings it states:

"Items over 2,500 gp that the caster cannot purchase may be crafted if the casters level exceeds the minimum item creation level by 2 and all other prerequisites are satisfied."

I was wondering why Arms and Armour stand alone as not having this clause. Is it a hold over from the problems in year 2, or is there a current reason for restricting the creation of Arms and Armour more than other items?

Cheers

Greg
Reylance
02-02-06, 11:00 AM I agree that Craft Arms and Armor should be adjusted in this manner.

Right now, it is rare to find magic items with enhancements, particularly desirable ones like Sacred or Holy. After all, what evil enemy would be wielding a Holy weapon? I'm glad that many ARs include the opportunity to upgrade weapons, a method that benefits the majority of PCs. However, these upgrades explicitly exclude allowing the PC to craft items with the upgrade. Given the rationalization that PCs can only craft items they've encountered, that seems silly.

Please do allow the Level +2 rule for Craft Arms and Armor.

If you are unwilling to change the rule, please state specific problems that lead you to be unwilling to change the rule.
redgamer
02-02-06, 11:06 AM I problem is that once a caster hits about level 9 they can make almost any enhancment. Right now CMAA is underpower but if people could use it to make exactly the weapon(s) they want it would likely be too powerful as most character have a very hard time finding the right enhancements.
rutrow424
02-03-06, 03:03 PM I problem is that once a caster hits about level 9 they can make almost any enhancment. Right now CMAA is underpower but if people could use it to make exactly the weapon(s) they want it would likely be too powerful as most character have a very hard time finding the right enhancements.

I agree that this is the most likely reason for the rule as it exists, but I disagree with this being a problem. This question has come up every time the LGCS has been reviewed, but the Circle has never commented to my knowledge.

The feat has litle potential to make PCs overpowered. The weapon enhancements are certainly more worrisome than the armor ones. Clerics/Druids are arguably already overpowered in the Core DnD rules and can't craft many of the enhancements without the right domains. Straight wizards are unlikely to craft anything for themselves. Gish casters will, but are likely already underpowered via their multiclassing. The only imbalance is that fighters/rogues can't guarantee they get what they want, while clerics and wizard types could (to some degree) if the rule changed.

The current rule combined with trends in AR access makes the CMA&A feat near useless except for increasing the enhancement bonus. I say this as a player who plays a gish PC that won't take the feat even if they change the current rule. If CWI is not overpowered under the current rules, then CMA&A certainly would not be.
redgamer
02-03-06, 03:38 PM Heh Gish characters are underpowered. I'm going to assume you've never seen high level play in the northest US. Gish characters are harder to build so many of them are weak but I think they have a higher upside. I've heard of a gish character devirsh dancing for 1 round and killing every bad guy from two seperate encounters (they were supposed to be seperate but the party accidentaly triggered them both at once) without any help from his party and this was in a core special. I've been outclassed by a 4th level rouge/wizard will playing a 6th level wizard.
rutrow424
02-03-06, 04:55 PM Heh Gish characters are underpowered. I'm going to assume you've never seen high level play in the northest US. Gish characters are harder to build so many of them are weak but I think they have a higher upside. I've heard of a gish character devirsh dancing for 1 round and killing every bad guy from two seperate encounters (they were supposed to be seperate but the party accidentaly triggered them both at once) without any help from his party and this was in a core special. I've been outclassed by a 4th level rouge/wizard will playing a 6th level wizard.

I haven't played in the Northeast, but the dervish dance story seems at best an exageration. My 14th level cleric has been outclassed by a 10th level druid and his companion. Neither example makes a compelling argument that multiclass and/or gish PCs are over/under powered. Gish can be strong PCs and there are a plethora of p-classes and feats that assist in building good gish PCs. Some builds do have a high upside, but are also one-trick ponies (ie great at charging when mounted, not so great otherwise) or otherwise specialized. An overall strong gish build will not compare to a straight wizard or warrior (or cleric/druid for that matter) in most cases, but can still be very effective. Depending on the scenario, any PC build CAN shine - let's keep the balance discussion to averages.

More on point - it is a very tough case to make that making CMA&A feat like the other craft feats will cause a cleric or wizard PC to be any more unbalanced than they are already. This is especially true considering CWI opens far many more useful items up to caster types and is deemed perfectly fine for the +2 level rule. If the rule difference between the craft feats is based on fear of gish builds, I would be very surprised. If it is based on trying to "balance" clerics/wizards vs. fighters wrt DnD rules, I would be disappointed (and it would be contrary to campaign goals as stated in other debates). If it is based on balancing access, then the restriction is laughable considering CWI and the rest.

I have possibly more issue with why the difference exists than the rule itself - the reasoning has never been given, despite being asked for multiple times over several years. I apologize if I missed it, but if someone could reiterate, I would appreciate it.
redgamer
02-03-06, 07:17 PM I don't have any insight into the why feat is restrained more than CWI. I don't know if the dervish dance was an exageration but I do know the build could do massive damage to each of 7 different opponents in one round. I'll take a gish over a fighter anyday but I won't discuss it more on a rules board. If you care I'll join you in the other LG forum. I do think CMAA creates access inbalances earlier due to the caster levels. Also making another feat as useful as CWI makes the disparities between crafter and non crafters even more. I'd rather see CMAA more useful and CWI less useful but I can't figure an acceptable way to do it.
RLWilde
02-04-06, 01:40 AM I problem is that once a caster hits about level 9 they can make almost any enhancment. Right now CMAA is underpower but if people could use it to make exactly the weapon(s) they want it would likely be too powerful as most character have a very hard time finding the right enhancements.

I'd be happy if even it was just the enhancement bonus which had the "caster level +2" access... able to Craft +2 enhancements at level 8, +3 at level 11, and +4 at level 14.
Iswald
02-04-06, 11:01 AM Could make it caster level +3 for both.
rutrow424
02-04-06, 11:48 AM I don't have any insight into the why feat is restrained more than CWI. I don't know if the dervish dance was an exageration but I do know the build could do massive damage to each of 7 different opponents in one round. I'll take a gish over a fighter anyday but I won't discuss it more on a rules board. If you care I'll join you in the other LG forum. I do think CMAA creates access inbalances earlier due to the caster levels. Also making another feat as useful as CWI makes the disparities between crafter and non crafters even more. I'd rather see CMAA more useful and CWI less useful but I can't figure an acceptable way to do it.

On topic - I would just like some insight from TPTB why it has been set in stone that CMAA is so much more of an problem than CWI. If fairness of access is the issue, then all craft feats should be tightly controlled - the present rules do not restrict the feat most likely to be abused (CWI). The only DMG enhancement that would be problematic IMHO would be wounding (maybe wilding? - but I've seem it given in mods); in addition, some of the specific armor/weapons might be as well. You could bar those in the same way restrictions are in place for other magic items.

Off topic - I'll start a gish thread on the main LG board; I'm interested at this dervish build at the least.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ballaratgreg 02-02-06, 05:53 AM	Hi Chris In magic item creation for Rods, Staffs, Wondrous Items and Rings it states: "Items over 2,500 gp that the caster cannot purchase may be crafted if the casters level exceeds the minimum item creation level by 2 and all other prerequisites are satisfied." I was wondering why Arms and Armour stand alone as not having this clause. Is it a hold over from the problems in year 2, or is there a current reason for restricting the creation of Arms and Armour more than other items? Cheers Greg
Reylance 02-02-06, 11:00 AM	I agree that Craft Arms and Armor should be adjusted in this manner. Right now, it is rare to find magic items with enhancements, particularly desirable ones like Sacred or Holy. After all, what evil enemy would be wielding a Holy weapon? I'm glad that many ARs include the opportunity to upgrade weapons, a method that benefits the majority of PCs. However, these upgrades explicitly exclude allowing the PC to craft items with the upgrade. Given the rationalization that PCs can only craft items they've encountered, that seems silly. Please do allow the Level +2 rule for Craft Arms and Armor. If you are unwilling to change the rule, please state specific problems that lead you to be unwilling to change the rule.
redgamer 02-02-06, 11:06 AM	I problem is that once a caster hits about level 9 they can make almost any enhancment. Right now CMAA is underpower but if people could use it to make exactly the weapon(s) they want it would likely be too powerful as most character have a very hard time finding the right enhancements.
rutrow424 02-03-06, 03:03 PM	I problem is that once a caster hits about level 9 they can make almost any enhancment. Right now CMAA is underpower but if people could use it to make exactly the weapon(s) they want it would likely be too powerful as most character have a very hard time finding the right enhancements. I agree that this is the most likely reason for the rule as it exists, but I disagree with this being a problem. This question has come up every time the LGCS has been reviewed, but the Circle has never commented to my knowledge. The feat has litle potential to make PCs overpowered. The weapon enhancements are certainly more worrisome than the armor ones. Clerics/Druids are arguably already overpowered in the Core DnD rules and can't craft many of the enhancements without the right domains. Straight wizards are unlikely to craft anything for themselves. Gish casters will, but are likely already underpowered via their multiclassing. The only imbalance is that fighters/rogues can't guarantee they get what they want, while clerics and wizard types could (to some degree) if the rule changed. The current rule combined with trends in AR access makes the CMA&A feat near useless except for increasing the enhancement bonus. I say this as a player who plays a gish PC that won't take the feat even if they change the current rule. If CWI is not overpowered under the current rules, then CMA&A certainly would not be.
redgamer 02-03-06, 03:38 PM	Heh Gish characters are underpowered. I'm going to assume you've never seen high level play in the northest US. Gish characters are harder to build so many of them are weak but I think they have a higher upside. I've heard of a gish character devirsh dancing for 1 round and killing every bad guy from two seperate encounters (they were supposed to be seperate but the party accidentaly triggered them both at once) without any help from his party and this was in a core special. I've been outclassed by a 4th level rouge/wizard will playing a 6th level wizard.
rutrow424 02-03-06, 04:55 PM	Heh Gish characters are underpowered. I'm going to assume you've never seen high level play in the northest US. Gish characters are harder to build so many of them are weak but I think they have a higher upside. I've heard of a gish character devirsh dancing for 1 round and killing every bad guy from two seperate encounters (they were supposed to be seperate but the party accidentaly triggered them both at once) without any help from his party and this was in a core special. I've been outclassed by a 4th level rouge/wizard will playing a 6th level wizard. I haven't played in the Northeast, but the dervish dance story seems at best an exageration. My 14th level cleric has been outclassed by a 10th level druid and his companion. Neither example makes a compelling argument that multiclass and/or gish PCs are over/under powered. Gish can be strong PCs and there are a plethora of p-classes and feats that assist in building good gish PCs. Some builds do have a high upside, but are also one-trick ponies (ie great at charging when mounted, not so great otherwise) or otherwise specialized. An overall strong gish build will not compare to a straight wizard or warrior (or cleric/druid for that matter) in most cases, but can still be very effective. Depending on the scenario, any PC build CAN shine - let's keep the balance discussion to averages. More on point - it is a very tough case to make that making CMA&A feat like the other craft feats will cause a cleric or wizard PC to be any more unbalanced than they are already. This is especially true considering CWI opens far many more useful items up to caster types and is deemed perfectly fine for the +2 level rule. If the rule difference between the craft feats is based on fear of gish builds, I would be very surprised. If it is based on trying to "balance" clerics/wizards vs. fighters wrt DnD rules, I would be disappointed (and it would be contrary to campaign goals as stated in other debates). If it is based on balancing access, then the restriction is laughable considering CWI and the rest. I have possibly more issue with why the difference exists than the rule itself - the reasoning has never been given, despite being asked for multiple times over several years. I apologize if I missed it, but if someone could reiterate, I would appreciate it.
redgamer 02-03-06, 07:17 PM	I don't have any insight into the why feat is restrained more than CWI. I don't know if the dervish dance was an exageration but I do know the build could do massive damage to each of 7 different opponents in one round. I'll take a gish over a fighter anyday but I won't discuss it more on a rules board. If you care I'll join you in the other LG forum. I do think CMAA creates access inbalances earlier due to the caster levels. Also making another feat as useful as CWI makes the disparities between crafter and non crafters even more. I'd rather see CMAA more useful and CWI less useful but I can't figure an acceptable way to do it.
RLWilde 02-04-06, 01:40 AM	I problem is that once a caster hits about level 9 they can make almost any enhancment. Right now CMAA is underpower but if people could use it to make exactly the weapon(s) they want it would likely be too powerful as most character have a very hard time finding the right enhancements. I'd be happy if even it was just the enhancement bonus which had the "caster level +2" access... able to Craft +2 enhancements at level 8, +3 at level 11, and +4 at level 14.
Iswald 02-04-06, 11:01 AM	Could make it caster level +3 for both.
rutrow424 02-04-06, 11:48 AM	I don't have any insight into the why feat is restrained more than CWI. I don't know if the dervish dance was an exageration but I do know the build could do massive damage to each of 7 different opponents in one round. I'll take a gish over a fighter anyday but I won't discuss it more on a rules board. If you care I'll join you in the other LG forum. I do think CMAA creates access inbalances earlier due to the caster levels. Also making another feat as useful as CWI makes the disparities between crafter and non crafters even more. I'd rather see CMAA more useful and CWI less useful but I can't figure an acceptable way to do it. On topic - I would just like some insight from TPTB why it has been set in stone that CMAA is so much more of an problem than CWI. If fairness of access is the issue, then all craft feats should be tightly controlled - the present rules do not restrict the feat most likely to be abused (CWI). The only DMG enhancement that would be problematic IMHO would be wounding (maybe wilding? - but I've seem it given in mods); in addition, some of the specific armor/weapons might be as well. You could bar those in the same way restrictions are in place for other magic items. Off topic - I'll start a gish thread on the main LG board; I'm interested at this dervish build at the least.