Post/Author/DateTime	Post
haferka 04-11-07, 10:03 AM	Has anyone considered switching the LG rules for crafting to match the Xendrix rules for crafting? Instead of allowing players to turn XP -> GP.. just give them a discount on the magic items that they can craft.. AND still require the expendature of TUs.
Timlagor 04-11-07, 11:18 AM	That's a terrible idea.
pedr 04-11-07, 11:42 AM	I've heard you say that before, but would be interested to hear your reasoning. I've not thought too hard about it - it would certainly solve the 'loss of XP as unintended benefit of crafting' problem.
bhale187 04-11-07, 12:12 PM	I am not familiar with the Xendrix system for crafting. Is it a TU cost and a 50% cost discoult on the items craft vs purchased?
Arcane Guyver 04-11-07, 01:27 PM	Basically, you spend time and 1/3 less money on magic items you make. Really simple, and sounds like it'd solve almost all of the 'imbalance' perceived in LG item creation. While we're at it, anyone noticed that the hit points are done slightly different there too? d4 classes grant 2 hit points per level, while d12 classes grant 8 hit points per level.
haferka 04-11-07, 01:33 PM	I've heard you say that before, but would be interested to hear your reasoning. I've not thought too hard about it - it would certainly solve the 'loss of XP as unintended benefit of crafting' problem. I will summarize the changes to Craft Feats... XP cost = 0 gp cost = 2/3 * normal market price TU cost = normal This definitly helps to prevent the "loss of XP as a benifit" Further.. Spells that require XP could be converted to GP cost... I would suggest a gp cost = XP * 2 That seems to fit the ratio of XP to GP gained at 10+ level when you will be seeing more of these spells.
bhale187 04-11-07, 02:17 PM	While we're at it, anyone noticed that the hit points are done slightly different there too? d4 classes grant 2 hit points per level, while d12 classes grant 8 hit points per level. Well that just sucks, why should lower die get a lower ratio of the maximum HP possible.
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 03:17 PM	This definitly helps to prevent the "loss of XP as a benifit" Ok, I've heard this quite a bit, but how is the loss of XP a "benefit"? XP means levels. Levels equal spells, feats, BAB, etc. All that equals power. And power is ALWAYS good. Why would you want to lose XP?
bitznarf 04-11-07, 03:20 PM	Ok, I've heard this quite a bit, but how is the loss of XP a "benefit"? XP means levels. Levels equal spells, feats, BAB, etc. All that equals power. And power is ALWAYS good. Why would you want to lose XP? The benifit comes in 2 ways: 1, you get a better/higher GP:XP ratio making your character stronger for his level. And 2, because of the nature of LG you can play your character longer, and you don't have the need to stay at or close to the same level as the other players in your campaign. So basically by the time you reach the same XP as a different character, your's is stronger.
kenobi65 04-11-07, 03:22 PM	Ok, I've heard this quite a bit, but how is the loss of XP a "benefit"? XP means levels. Levels equal spells, feats, BAB, etc. All that equals power. And power is ALWAYS good. Why would you want to lose XP? Because lower XP puts off retirement. In a normal home campaign, losing XP means that you may wind up lagging behind your fellow PCs. When they're 12th level, you may only be 10th, and that's problematic. In a Living-style campaign, where you don't have to always play with the same players / same PCs *, losing those XP isn't as much of a negative -- you're still always seeking to play at a table of the appropriate APL for your current level. And, while you're advancing in XP more slowly, you're still advancing in your GPs and your equipment (which you're also getting at a discount, due to MIC). You wind up having better equipment than a "normal" (i.e., non-crafting) PC of your XP level would have. * - If you don't play LG at conventions or game days (i.e., you always play with the same group), then it's closer to a home campaign experience, and it's more of a disadvantage.
haferka 04-11-07, 03:54 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by Arcane Guyver While we're at it, anyone noticed that the hit points are done slightly different there too? d4 classes grant 2 hit points per level, while d12 classes grant 8 hit points per level. Well that just sucks, why should lower die get a lower ratio of the maximum HP possible. Thats exactly what they did... d4 - 2 = 50% 1d12 - 8 = 75% The HP for Xendrix are exactly the same as Lg.. except the d4 went down 1 hp.. and the d12 went up 1 hp.
bitznarf 04-11-07, 04:01 PM	The question is why the ratio is different, not 'is it.'
haferka 04-11-07, 05:05 PM	ah. I can't say for certain.. but... lowering the d4 emphasizes the lack of combat prowess.. and descourages those classes from entering melee. raising the d12 encourages barbarian advancement becouse otherwise it is almost always better to take the d10 class with better abilities. If you graph out the Max HP Percentages.. LG d4: 3 = 75% d6: 4 = 66% d8: 5 = 63% d10: 6 = 60% d12: 7 = 58% Xendrix d4: 2 = 50% d6: 4 = 50% d8: 5 = 63% d10: 6 = 60% d12: 8 = 75% looks like they were trying to reverse the trend.. LG gives the highest % hp to the smaller Hit Die.. and the lowest % hp to the larger Hit Die If that was the goal I would adjust it as follows.. d4: 2 = 50% d6: 4 = 66% d8: 5 = 63% d10: 7 = 70% d12: 9 = 75%
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 05:09 PM	Because lower XP puts off retirement. In a normal home campaign, losing XP means that you may wind up lagging behind your fellow PCs. When they're 12th level, you may only be 10th, and that's problematic. In a Living-style campaign, where you don't have to always play with the same players / same PCs *, losing those XP isn't as much of a negative -- you're still always seeking to play at a table of the appropriate APL for your current level. And, while you're advancing in XP more slowly, you're still advancing in your GPs and your equipment (which you're also getting at a discount, due to MIC). You wind up having better equipment than a "normal" (i.e., non-crafting) PC of your XP level would have. * - If you don't play LG at conventions or game days (i.e., you always play with the same group), then it's closer to a home campaign experience, and it's more of a disadvantage. I don't see how 1/25th of the total cost of an item is all that much. Even with huge items, like a Headband of Intellect +6, that's about 18,000 gp to 1440 XP. Now how quickly can you remake that XP? (assuming APL 12, when most crafters have that kind of cash lying around). One mod. One more mod you can play before you retire. BIG DEAL. A crafter can only craft (and thus only lose exp) if he has something he wants that he can craft, enough gold to craft it, and the TU's to waste on it. And then it's 1 gold to like .08 XP. You have to blow 14 gold to even waste 1 XP. I don't see how that's so much a problem. Now crafters having better stuff for their level, that I can understand as being slightly unfair. But it's at the cost of a feat (could be used for other things, like metamagic), TU's (that's less play opptunities per year for that character), and yes, XP (which means you might have to play up at small gatherings, which is bad for a caster who usually falls in one shot anyway).
bitznarf 04-11-07, 05:23 PM	Now crafters having better stuff for their level, that I can understand as being slightly unfair. But it's at the cost of a feat (could be used for other things, like metamagic), TU's (that's less play opptunities per year for that character), and yes, XP (which means you might have to play up at small gatherings, which is bad for a caster who usually falls in one shot anyway). The 'time before retirement' is probably the smallest benefit to casters. Yes there is a cost to taking the feats, ie, it costs a feat, but the return on that cost is soo much higher then any other feat. What other feat can grant you an extra 25%-40% (rough guess here) gold over the course of your characters career? Think just how much that extra gold can do... A better Con item, giving +1 Hp per level - think Improved Toughness A higher casting stat sooner - think Spell Focus (everything) A better resistance item sooner - think Luck of Heroes etc. And this doesn't even take into account being able to reach into your past AR's and use access that you got on them. Being able to get the *right* item is great.
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 05:29 PM	The 'time before retirement' is probably the smallest benefit to casters. Yes there is a cost to taking the feats, ie, it costs a feat, but the return on that cost is soo much higher then any other feat. What other feat can grant you an extra 25%-40% (rough guess here) gold over the course of your characters career? Think just how much that extra gold can do... A better Con item, giving +1 Hp per level - think Improved Toughness A higher casting stat sooner - think Spell Focus (everything) A better resistance item sooner - think Luck of Heroes etc. And this doesn't even take into account being able to reach into your past AR's and use access that you got on them. Being able to get the *right* item is great. And I'm not arguing that. I'm just arguing that losing XP is not a benefit of crafting, but a penatly. As to the orignal poster's idea, how is that fixing anything? It makes it cost more gold, but a caster will still have better stuff. They get access once, they have it forever, while non casters hope they can get access at the right time, when they have the money, or hope that it's core or any access. (And most things aren't). At least with the XP penalty, it takes them longer to see access to the better stuff. (Which is usually at higher APL's)
bitznarf 04-11-07, 05:52 PM	Its all about the gold:XP ratio. By consistently crafting throughout your career your GP:XP ratio is artificially inflated. This is the benefit. Less XP means more GP (relatively.) So it takes you longer to get to level X. So what. Once you get there, you are stronger then if you had not crafted.
Grantor 04-11-07, 06:09 PM	Thats exactly what they did... d4 - 2 = 50% 1d12 - 8 = 75% The HP for Xendrix are exactly the same as Lg.. except the d4 went down 1 hp.. and the d12 went up 1 hp. Actually, they went with 2/3 (66%) and round down, instead of 1/2 (50%) and round up. For most of the range of hit dice, this works out the same. As for "Why", few justifications are made when releasing a campaign standards doc. Not every single rule merits commenting on, and if they did the effort of writing a CS would result in the document never being released.
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 06:11 PM	Its all about the gold:XP ratio. By consistently crafting throughout your career your GP:XP ratio is artificially inflated. This is the benefit. Less XP means more GP (relatively.) So it takes you longer to get to level X. So what. Once you get there, you are stronger then if you had not crafted. Ok, one more thing. Crafters can craft "constantly"? Meaning that all their gold that's not put into upkeep and consumables (not to mention the occasional rez), goes to MIC? I can hardly believe that there are that many things a crafter could want. (Or even use. It's not like we gain any real benefit from any crafting feat other than CWI). Here's what I can think of that a crafter could want and be able to craft: Headband of Intellect (or another headpiece if CHA or WIS caster) Amulet of Health (or Amulet of Wisdom if Cleric or Druid) Cloak of Charisma (or another cloak if not CHA caster or turner) Pearls of Power (or Memento Magicas if spontaneous) Blessed Book (if wizard) Maybe there are some other things, but most of them, like most boots and gloves, give little or no benefit to a caster compared to their cost. I know I left out scrolls, but usually only wizards have that. (Most other casters can't spare the feat.) Doing the math, a wizard with both stat boosters, the book, and 6 pearls of first level (I've seen access to the higher ones once, on my rogue, go figure:( ) would spend about 50k. That's a lot, but he won't be crafting constantly. I have no idea what point I've been trying to make, since a non crafter would have to pay twice that, and that IS an advantage, but I guess the point is that they would eventually run out of stuff to craft. (Unless they were a battle cleric with both CWI and CAA, then I could see it going on till retirement).
Mommy was an Orc 04-11-07, 06:35 PM	Here's what I can think of that a crafter could want and be able to craft: Headband of Intellect (or another headpiece if CHA or WIS caster) Amulet of Health (or Amulet of Wisdom if Cleric or Druid) Cloak of Charisma (or another cloak if not CHA caster or turner) Pearls of Power (or Memento Magicas if spontaneous) Blessed Book (if wizard) That's not looking at quite right...pick the point in time where your Wizard wants a +2 Int, +2 Health, 5 Pearls of Power 1st level, and a Blessed Book. Okay, that's 25500 gold. If you craft it, it drops to about 13000. That's 12500 gold to keep crafting. Now as it so happens, it takes about 12K to upgrade both that +2 Int and +2 Health item to +4 each. So your non-crafting Wizard ends up being 2 Int/Con below the crafter. That's not insignificant. It wouldn't be difficult, especially now, to make those crafting items your first use of 25K of gold. That'll take you up to 8th level or so. Wouldn't you like to have 2 +4 items at 8th level? But, yes, Wizards can craft almost constantly once they get Pearl access. If you craft a Pearl 1st level, that's 500 gold to craft it - it gives you back 500 gold when you sell it. So when you're saving up for a big ticket item, you craft 5-20 Pearls rather than sit around with 10K gold...such as for a +6 stat item...
bitznarf 04-11-07, 06:48 PM	Note I said 'consistently' not 'constantly.' ;)
Japangirl 04-11-07, 06:58 PM	Stat items, Blessed Book for wizards, resistance items, ioun stones, random unique items that show up from time to time, bracers of armor for non-armored casters. That's what I came up with after thinking for less than 1 minute that a caster can get at half price and with permanent access. My rogue wants a Scarab of Golemsbane (don't ask). No access right now. I wanted Boots of Speed for a long time, but saw them once and then they went away before I had the money and I had to wait to see them again. My bard's access to Memento Magica expired before she saved up the money to buy one, and she only barely managed to save up for a Hat of Disguise before that access expired as well. Meanwhile, my wizard can get stat items at half price, unlimited Pearls of Power, resistance items at half price (I should have a +3 item on a 7th level character soon, it's 4500g to make. My 15th rogue only has a +3 resistance item . . .). If the crafter sees metamagic rods, s/he is likely to have the money to buy them or have the items available to sell to get the money. They can always recraft the items, after all, because access never goes away. Meanwhile, the noncrafter has to choose between two unique useful and powerful items. There is a definite power differential there.
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 07:56 PM	Note I said 'consistently' not 'constantly.' ;) Opps, my bad.:) You are right, they can craft consistently, because they never lose access. Maybe we should fix that. (A crafter has to memorize items, can only know how to craft so many items per level, or something like that).
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 08:00 PM	Stat items, Blessed Book for wizards, resistance items, ioun stones, random unique items that show up from time to time, bracers of armor for non-armored casters. That's what I came up with after thinking for less than 1 minute that a caster can get at half price and with permanent access. My rogue wants a Scarab of Golemsbane (don't ask). No access right now. I wanted Boots of Speed for a long time, but saw them once and then they went away before I had the money and I had to wait to see them again. My bard's access to Memento Magica expired before she saved up the money to buy one, and she only barely managed to save up for a Hat of Disguise before that access expired as well. Meanwhile, my wizard can get stat items at half price, unlimited Pearls of Power, resistance items at half price (I should have a +3 item on a 7th level character soon, it's 4500g to make. My 15th rogue only has a +3 resistance item . . .). If the crafter sees metamagic rods, s/he is likely to have the money to buy them or have the items available to sell to get the money. They can always recraft the items, after all, because access never goes away. Meanwhile, the noncrafter has to choose between two unique useful and powerful items. There is a definite power differential there. About the scarab, I don't have to ask why. My rogue wants one too.:) And I suppose you are right, the fact that we have 'adventure' access in LG makes crafters way more powerful than non-crafters. And that's what we need to fix. We need to make it so crafters also have to make choices about what they can and cannot craft. (See previous post for one idea).
haferka 04-11-07, 08:47 PM	About the scarab, I don't have to ask why. My rogue wants one too.:) And I suppose you are right, the fact that we have 'adventure' access in LG makes crafters way more powerful than non-crafters. And that's what we need to fix. We need to make it so crafters also have to make choices about what they can and cannot craft. (See previous post for one idea). oh..please no... I really do not want to keep track of another list. I have no problem with the improved access from craft feats. that just adds comexity...which is the opposite of what I was suggesting.
chesspiece 04-11-07, 09:09 PM	Meanwhile, my wizard can get stat items at half price, unlimited Pearls of Power, resistance items at half price (I should have a +3 item on a 7th level character soon, it's 4500g to make. My 15th rogue only has a +3 resistance item . . .). One small correction. In the Cloak of Resistance description, one of the Prerequisites is "creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus". This is different from CL and is still required for MIC in LG. So you'll need to be 9th level to MIC a cloak +3. Back when LG first started, MIC access is the reason my first PC is a wizard. I'd played 2e Living City in the early 90's and lamented its item access (I gather that things got more liberal after I had stopped playing). So I decided that I'd make a PC with the potential to make his own access and hope that the Circle would allow something close to Core rules. Of course, I also hoped I could sell MIC items to PCs but that bubble burst pretty quickly. :P Incidentally, neither of my 2 other PCs MIC and I don't see a problem / power discrepancy. It's not like they have ever had too much gold & not enough access to spend it on. Is MIC nice? Yes. Do I want more than one PC that does it? No. Are non-MIC-ers viable? Absolutely.
GreatSiron 04-11-07, 10:39 PM	oh..please no... I really do not want to keep track of another list. I have no problem with the improved access from craft feats. that just adds comexity...which is the opposite of what I was suggesting. I'd rather not do that either, but it's was the only thing I could think of at the time that would fix the forever access problem.
copper_wyrmling 04-11-07, 11:22 PM	I'd rather not do that either, but it's was the only thing I could think of at the time that would fix the forever access problem. I'd rather look for a way to let non-crafters regain lost access... spend a TU for every 5000gp in the item's market price in order to track down expired Adventure access, for example (e.g. it would take you 10 TUs to track down a 50k item / commission an NPC to make you a copy, just like it takes crafters 10 TUs to craft one). I doubt it'll happen, but I didn't think LG would allow retraining, either ;)
GreatSiron 04-12-07, 12:04 AM	I'd rather look for a way to let non-crafters regain lost access... spend a TU for every 5000gp in the item's market price in order to track down expired Adventure access, for example (e.g. it would take you 10 TUs to track down a 50k item / commission an NPC to make you a copy, just like it takes crafters 10 TUs to craft one). I doubt it'll happen, but I didn't think LG would allow retraining, either ;) That's sounds like a nice idea, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of having adventure access at all?
copper_wyrmling 04-12-07, 12:23 AM	That's sounds like a nice idea, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of having adventure access at all? I'm not entirely certain what the "purpose" of adventure access is (I can think of a number of consequences of the Adventure-access system, I just don't know which ones were intended). If it's to make sure that people can't buy a lot of the cool stuff they see, and thus limit the degree to which people can customize their equipment, then sure. If the limitation is there for realism reasons ("no, the merchant does not still have that item you sold him five years ago") then a TU cost would get around that - it would represent you following the trail of buyers. (Cheap items are quicker to find because while a merchant may not have the exact one you sold him, he knows someone who can get a copy: for 200k items, you probably DO need to find the exact same one you sold to a gleeful con-man at 1/10 of its real value back when you were L4.) Anyway, it wasn't exactly a fleshed-out plan, just a comment that if there's a discrepancy between crafters and non-crafters then it might be worth looking at ways to help non-crafters rather than taking abilities away from crafters ;)
dark_poet 04-12-07, 03:06 AM	I just have two points. 1) Do not forget that a feat is spent on gaining the ability to craft. I'm not saying benefit to the xp-gp ratio is balanced by the value of the feat spent. I'm just reminding everyone that crafting should still have considerable benefit. When considering a system such as that used by XE, the question becomes: Value of feat slot spent+the penalty of playing less games per year (due to less TU) = GP saved? 2) The discussion so far has seemed to be restricted to the crafting of wonderous items. However there still are scrolls and perhaps more importantly wands. My characters do not craft wands but I know casters, in the area I play who do so. I don't think the crafting of consumables leads to the same 'imbalance' (if we may call it that) that the crafting of wonderous items does. And I think a new system such as that proposed by the OP, would make crafting of consumables highly sub-optimal. XE does not really offer a model in this aspect due to the fact that there are effectively no consumables in XE. Just for the record, I think crafting in XE is fairly weak not because of what has been discussed here but rather because of of the individual item value cap.
haferka 04-12-07, 10:32 AM	I will summarize the suggestion(s) so far: - Crafting Access = normal, but expire "Adventure" access - Crafting XP cost = 0 - Crafting gp cost = noraml + 15% more - Crafting TU cost = normal -Adventure Access = normal, but using access resets the timer. -Trackdown access = This resets the Adventure access timer. 100gp & 1TU per 5000gp value of the item.
KShaver 04-12-07, 10:49 AM	Just for the record, I think crafting in XE is fairly weak not because of what has been discussed here but rather because of of the individual item value cap. Single item GP cap increases fairly rapidly and becomes less of a problem at the higher levels.
Grantor 04-12-07, 01:59 PM	I just wanted to point out the Magic Item Compendium takes a long hard look (from a design stand-point) on what magic items are appropriate for characters of certain levels. Kind of a level-cap system, but not "hard coded". Instead, the treasure tables are all level-specific. No longer are characters expected to sell all of their worldly possessions to get that +4 stat item. Now that item is not really meant for characters lower than 8th level (or whatever level, I don't have the book with me here). This time next year, we may all be commenting/complaining about the new system the LGCS uses for capping the value of a item a character can buy or make.
Samwise 04-12-07, 02:35 PM	I just wanted to point out the Magic Item Compendium takes a long hard look (from a design stand-point) on what magic items are appropriate for characters of certain levels. Kind of a level-cap system, but not "hard coded". Instead, the treasure tables are all level-specific. No longer are characters expected to sell all of their worldly possessions to get that +4 stat item. Now that item is not really meant for characters lower than 8th level (or whatever level, I don't have the book with me here). This time next year, we may all be commenting/complaining about the new system the LGCS uses for capping the value of a item a character can buy or make. Yes, I took particular notice of that myself. And it is kind of hard coded, with items assigned "level" based on a gp range. PCs and NPC are then expected to have appropriate items, with PCs allowed items up to their level, and NPCs generally limited to their best item being 2 levels lower. As an example: A 7th level PC would have two items worth 2,301-3,000 gp. A 7th level NPC would have two items worth 1,301-1,800 gp. There is a trade up option, so the PC might have his highest level item instead be worth 4,001-5,000 gp Obviously these two would have a significant interconnection. (You can't buy what you don't get access to.) And indeed, there is a very significant disconnect between LG and stat boost items and metamagic rods and those tables, but that would be a huge topic all by itself.
haferka 04-12-07, 07:56 PM	I am not possitive.. but it it was explained to me that: "Adventure" Access was stuff in the mod that is NOT widely available... "Regional" Access was stuff that you can now get through local contacts. "Any" Access was stuff that you can now get through some organization with ties across the trade routes.
dark_poet 04-12-07, 10:41 PM	This time next year, we may all be commenting/complaining about the new system the LGCS uses for capping the value of a item a character can buy or make. I don't know if I would complain. It would depend on exact capping. Implementing something identical to that found in XE into LG might not be ideal. As KShaver mentioned at higher level the caps seem less restrictive but at lower levels it kinda leaves PCs with not much shopping options besides consumables (which like I said don't exactly exist in XE and thus the system is actually alright for XE). Part of what I'm trying to say is XE and LG are very different mainly due to the 'Living' nature of LG. I am not sure but I always thought XE crafting rules were simply because of levels bumps and re-tooling options. With these two in place spending exp doesn't really work. Generally I have nothing against individual item gp cap. What I'm trying to say is this can be a 'nerf' to crafting. Or at least that's my experience with XE. KShaver: I guess you are right. But the campaign ain't at the point yet is it ;)
Timlagor 04-14-07, 08:28 PM	Crafting should not be a loss-making proposition. It's already weird enough that you can't profit from it (though understandable) but to actually make it cost money [aside from the upkeep] would be bad (we could increase the proportion things can be sold for I suppose...) XE doesn't have this problem because you never sell anything.. you just don't allocate your wealth to it next time.
Timlagor 04-14-07, 08:32 PM	Item Levels I've just looked through the MIC and it's very clear and totally explicit that the item levels are strictly for the purpose of allowing a DM to equip characters quickly without worrying about exact wealth guidelines. It would be totally inappropriate to limit PCs to equipment "of their level" if they wanted to buy something a bit more special. In practice very few characters I've seen had nothing above the levels specified: the "level" is determined purely as the level at which an item will cost approximately half the gp earned in the course of that level ...with absolutely no reference whatsoever to how useful the item is.
Timlagor 04-16-07, 11:27 PM	I'm going to add that Crafting isn't actually that much better in LG than in any other campaign (now the CL+2 rule has gone). It's just that everyone else is suffering from not being able to use the stuff they find and only sell it when it loses its usefulness. [which also pushes people to saving for more big ticket items that will last them rather than needing to be sold in a few levels' time]
katrick 04-19-07, 01:33 PM	I didn't know there were Xendrix campaign standards. We just ran off of the old Eberron ones. Which don't have TU's at all or anything like it, as there are only a certain amount of games(usually less than enough for the level bumps,aka Green Regent) but in those, consumables cost 5x normal price. Also the money is a lot more than LG.(or it would seem to be as you dont spend on Upkeep and you get to spend it all at once) I think crafting works quite well in LG, though forever access is a bit rude for non-crafters. My character cops both, as he only has Scribe Scroll he never has any money to buy the Adventure access stuff.(and most Scrolls get used pretty quick at low levels, and are quite expensive at higher levels). I have noticed lately there are a fair number of Favours allowing one time access to any previous Adventure access item.(some Regional and some Core). katrick
LachlarlanIII 04-19-07, 01:39 PM	Well that just sucks, why should lower die get a lower ratio of the maximum HP possible. Xen'drik uses a 2/3 round down rule instead of the 1/2+1 rule we know and love.
Timlagor 04-19-07, 09:59 PM	Xendrik does have it's on CS. I believe there are pretty major differences from MoH so you should download the CS and have a look.