Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ariel23 02-20-06, 03:55 PM	Can we please get a clarification (or rule change) on the following: Scribe Scroll: (Clarification) Does a scroll with multiple spells count as one magic item?How many spells per scroll? Craft Item (Mundane) (Rule change) A masterwork club (clubs cost nothing) with minimum rolls and no failures takes 7.5 weeks or 8 time units! A magical crafter, in that same time period, could craft a +1 Flaming Club of Shock. Did you know that it takes over 7,000 days to craft a suit of Adamantine Full Plate mail? If you start now you will be done in August of 2018. Of course, by then, we'll be playing 4th edition and you'll have to start over. Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Special Materials) (Clarification) Special materials are listed on Specific Armors and Weapons tables in the DMG, but technically these are only examples, as any item can be Mithril (not just shirts) or Adamantine (not just breastplate and battleaxe) or Dragonhide (not just plate mail) in the same way that silver and cold iron can be. Unlike, say Rhino Hide or Holy Avenger, which truly are "specific" items. 1) If you gain access to a Mithril shirt, can you then craft Mithril plate mail in the same sense that a +1 Flaming longsword allows you to craft a +1 Flaming falchion? 2) If you gain access to an Adamantine weapon, does that allow you to craft Adamantine armor, and vice versa? 3) If you do gain access to a Mithril Shirt (a specific item) can you then continue to enchant it with general benefits (+2, Acid Resistance, etc) according to your access? Or do you need to find a +2 Mithril Shirt first to enchant your mundane Mithril Shirt to +2, since it's a "specific" item? 4) Do you need any skill in Craft to make a non-magical Mithril armor, Adamantine weapon, etc, if you have the Craft Arms & Armor feat and access to the correct material/equipment & AR?
redgamer 02-20-06, 04:30 PM	This has been ansered. One spell per scroll. Irrelevant, you can't craft weapons. Irrelevant, you can't craft armor. Crafting magical armors and armor allow you to craft exactly the arms and armor you have access to. The rules in the LGCS about what you have access to craft upgrade are rather clear and you are already over a week past the chance to change them. Sorry ot be the bearer of bad news.
Ariel23 02-20-06, 07:58 PM	The rules in the LGCS about what you have access to craft upgrade are rather clear.Actually they're not when it comes to special materials. These are the only items listed in a DMG table for armor, although there is an entire section on special materials at the very end of the Magic Items. All references to magic items/crafting in the LGCS refer to DMG tables. Table 7-7 Mithral Shirt Dragonhide Plate Elven Chain Adamantine Breastplate Dwarven Plate (Adamantine) Mithral Full Plate of Speed Remember, these are specific armors, just like "Banded Mail of Luck." Does this mean that the only mithral armor available is the Mithral Shirt or Full Plate of Speed? If my AR says "Mithral Shirt - 1,100 gp" can I 1) Craft a mwk (non magical) Mithral Shirt? 2) Craft Mithril platemail? 3) Enchant that mithril shirt to +1 without an AR? [There is no "Mithral Shirt +1" on Table 7-7] If my AR says "Adamantine Battle Ax" 1) Craft both adamantine armor and weapons? 2) Further enchant the ax? If I find Full Plate of Light Fortification, can I Put Light Fortification on my Mithral shirt? If so, does that mean that I can put Light Fortification on my Rhino Hide or Banded Mail of Luck, as well? If I have an Adamantine Battle Ax (+1) and find a Vorpal Sword, Can I put "Vorpal" on my Battle Ax? If so, can I put Vorpal on my Flame Tongue?
redgamer 02-20-06, 08:35 PM	Remember, these are specific armors, just like "Banded Mail of Luck." Does this mean that the only mithral armor available is the Mithral Shirt or Full Plate of Speed? If my AR says "Mithral Shirt - 1,100 gp" can I 1) Craft a mwk (non magical) Mithral Shirt? 2) Craft Mithril platemail? 3) Enchant that mithril shirt to +1 without an AR? [There is no "Mithral Shirt +1" on Table 7-7] If my AR says "Adamantine Battle Ax" 1) Craft both adamantine armor and weapons? 2) Further enchant the ax? If I find Full Plate of Light Fortification, can I Put Light Fortification on my Mithral shirt? If so, does that mean that I can put Light Fortification on my Rhino Hide or Banded Mail of Luck, as well? If I have an Adamantine Battle Ax (+1) and find a Vorpal Sword, Can I put "Vorpal" on my Battle Ax? If so, can I put Vorpal on my Flame Tongue? No No No Yes No Yes Yes Only with specificly documented permision Yes Only with specificly documented permision
Samwise 02-20-06, 10:07 PM	If my AR says "Mithral Shirt - 1,100 gp" can I 1) Craft a mwk (non magical) Mithral Shirt? No, you can not craft non-magical items. 2) Craft Mithril platemail? No, you can not craft non-magical items. 3) Enchant that mithril shirt to +1 without an AR? [There is no "Mithral Shirt +1" on Table 7-7] Yes. A mithral chain shirt counts as special material and not a specific item. This is in the item creation rules. If my AR says "Adamantine Battle Ax" 1) Craft both adamantine armor and weapons? No, you can not craft non-magical items. 2) Further enchant the ax? Yes. Any adamantine item counts as a special material and not a specific item and can be further enhanced. If I find Full Plate of Light Fortification, can I 1) Put Light Fortification on my Mithral shirt? No and yes. The mithral shirt must first be +1 or better. If it is, you can then make it light fortification, as once you have access to an enhancement you can put it on anything. 2) If so, does that mean that I can put Light Fortification on my Rhino Hide or Banded Mail of Luck, as well? No. Those are non-standard items with abilities not normally present, and may never be upgraded. If I have an Adamantine Battle Ax (+1) and find a Vorpal Sword, 1) Can I put "Vorpal" on my Battle Ax? Yes, once you have access to an enhancement you can put it on anything. 2) If so, can I put Vorpal on my Flame Tongue? No. Flame tongue is a non-standard item with abilities not normally present, and may never be upgraded.
redgamer 02-20-06, 10:09 PM	Thanks for adding in the details for me Sam.
Ariel23 02-21-06, 12:38 AM	Do you guys know those answers are not the same...? I added in Redgamer's answers in red. People keep telling me these answers are clearly outlined in the LGCS but I do not think it is quite that clear. The DMG "Creating Magic Items" (beginning p. 282) section includes Masterwork and Special Materials before getting into Magic Armor, Weapons, etc. I guess what I am saying is, the (crafting/upgrading) rules would benefit from a section entitled "Special Materials" especially considering that the DMG has one and uses that format. If my AR says "Mithral Shirt - 1,100 gp" can I No 1) Craft a mwk (non magical) Mithral Shirt? No, you can not craft non-magical items. No 2) Craft Mithril platemail? No, you can not craft non-magical items. No 3) Enchant that mithril shirt to +1 without an AR? [There is no "Mithral Shirt +1" on Table 7-7] Yes. A mithral chain shirt counts as special material and not a specific item. This is in the item creation rules. If my AR says "Adamantine Battle Ax" Yes 1) Craft both adamantine armor and weapons? No, you can not craft non-magical items. No 2) Further enchant the ax? Yes. Any adamantine item counts as a special material and not a specific item and can be further enhanced. If I find Full Plate of Light Fortification, can I Yes 1) Put Light Fortification on my Mithral shirt? No and yes. The mithral shirt must first be +1 or better. If it is, you can then make it light fortification, as once you have access to an enhancement you can put it on anything. Yes 2) If so, does that mean that I can put Light Fortification on my Rhino Hide or Banded Mail of Luck, as well? No. Those are non-standard items with abilities not normally present, and may never be upgraded. If I have an Adamantine Battle Ax (+1) and find a Vorpal Sword, Only with specific permission 1) Can I put "Vorpal" on my Battle Ax? Yes, once you have access to an enhancement you can put it on anything. Only with specific permission 2) If so, can I put Vorpal on my Flame Tongue? No. Flame tongue is a non-standard item with abilities not normally present, and may never be upgraded.
Samwise 02-21-06, 01:00 AM	Do you guys know those answers are not the same...? I added in Redgamer's answers in red. People keep telling me these answers are clearly outlined in the LGCS but I do not think it is quite that clear. The DMG "Creating Magic Items" (beginning p. 282) section includes Masterwork and Special Materials before getting into Magic Armor, Weapons, etc. I guess what I am saying is, the (crafting/upgrading) rules would benefit from a section entitled "Special Materials" especially considering that the DMG has one and uses that format. Heh. That's why I didn't say "It clearly says in the LGCS that . . ." You are right, it is a bit ambiguous. I am pretty sure that all my answers are correct. I didn't provide specific page references because they might be changing as soon as the LGCS 5.0 goes live, but: 1. You can't create non-magical items. That requires the crafting rules (and up to several years as you noted), and is simply not used in LG. (That covers anything mithral or adamantine or otherwise.) 2. In the second column, at the bottom, under Table 7-2 of what is currently page 56 of the LGCS 5.0 draft, you will find the note about special material items, including the ones specifically listed in the DMG. This continues in Table 7-3 on page 57. (That covers upgrading a mithral shirt to a mithral shirt +1, or adding vorpal to your adamantine battle axe +1.) 3. That same also covers non-standard items, and not being able to upgrade them. (Which is making your rhina hide light fortification, or your flame tongue vorpal.) 4. At the bottom of the first column of page 54, in the bullet points under Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you will find the note about adding an enhancement to any type of item once you have encountered it. (That covers making your mithral chain shirt +1 into light fortification if you find light fortification plate mail, or your axe vorpal if you find a vorpal sword.) And yes, I agree, that section could use a bit of rewording. Perhaps we can get them to slip it in when the inevitable polymorph/wild shape revision shows up. Otherwise it will have to keep until next year's LGCS review.
Ariel23 02-22-06, 12:42 AM	Actually with the help of your post as a guideline I managed to decipher most of this from the 5.0 draft. I still think there is some room for interpretation on some of these questions, although yours seem likely to be correct. (An old journal did list mundane crafting as possible but they must have figured out how pointless it is and abolished that.) My final two questions: 1) Crafting from scratch (non-upgrades). Lets say you have no ARs with access to items, you can still freely make a +1 weapon, armor, or shield without documentation? (p. 54 bottom left, first bullet)Any weapon, ammunition, or shield/armor up to a +1 enchantment bonus once the character satisfies the prerequisites. All of the following have a +1 enchantment bonus: Dagger of Venom Flame Tongue Javelin of Lightning (Magical but no plus) Life Drinker Shatterspike Shifter's Sorrow Slaying Arrows Sleep Arrows Sword of the Planes Sword of Subtlety Trident of Fish Command Mithral Full Plate of Speed Plate Armor of the Deep Absorbing Shield Caster's Shield Spined Shield 2) Back to special materials It says "A character with this feat can create items [no "magic"] from the DMG, Tables 7-2 through 7-16..." (LGCS p54, first para, "Craft Magic Arms and Armor") Since Adamantine, Mithral (et al) have "an enchantment bonus of up to 1" and are listed in Tables 7-2 through 7-16, wouldn't that mean you could craft a plain Mithral Shirt or Adamantine Battleax?
tilloch 02-22-06, 01:23 AM	Originally Posted By Ariel23 1) Crafting from scratch (non-upgrades). Lets say you have no ARs with access to items, you can still freely make a +1 weapon, armor, or shield without documentation? (p. 54 bottom left, first bullet) All of the following have a +1 enchantment bonus: Dagger of Venom Flame Tongue Javelin of Lightning (Magical but no plus) Life Drinker Shatterspike Shifter's Sorrow Slaying Arrows Sleep Arrows Sword of the Planes Sword of Subtlety Trident of Fish Command Mithral Full Plate of Speed Plate Armor of the Deep Absorbing Shield Caster's Shield Spined Shield I am pretty sure that ends up page 47 in LGCS 5.0. If you read to the third bullet item in that list, second sentence, it states: "Campaign documentation is needed to gain access to create specific magic weapons and armor (such as flametounge or rhino hide)." I am pretty sure that covers all of those items. My guess is that the intent of the "up to +1 enchantment" portion of the bullet item you mentioned would cover most of these items as well. Wouldn't a +1 mithril full plate of speed be "just over" +1 enchantment? Steve Deis
Samwise 02-22-06, 10:54 AM	2) Back to special materials It says "A character with this feat can create items [no "magic"] from the DMG, Tables 7-2 through 7-16..." (LGCS p54, first para, "Craft Magic Arms and Armor") Since Adamantine, Mithral (et al) have "an enchantment bonus of up to 1" and are listed in Tables 7-2 through 7-16, wouldn't that mean you could craft a plain Mithral Shirt or Adamantine Battleax? Well, let's say you can. How do you do it? You don't use the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat to make those since they aren't magical. You can't use Craft (armorsmith) or Craft (weaponsmith) to make them since using those skills in that manner isn't allowed in the campaign. So how will you make such an item? Even if not specifically disallowed, they wind up caught in a Catch-22 of you having permission to do it, but no way of actually doing it. Again though, for clarity, that should be explicity changed to disallow any such crafting.
Ariel23 02-23-06, 07:31 PM	I agree that the rules should specifically address those special materials, even a single bullet would help immensely. I'm not sure that the crafting of those items needs to be banned, the price is quite steep on all mithril and adamantine except perhaps for mithral light armors and shields. But the value of mithral light armor (Chain shirt, etc) is not that great, as the armor can't get any lighter and unless you have a 20+ DEX. In any event, however it is ruled, it should be explicit. I know for a fact that in old versions of the LGCS you could craft using Craft skills. I can only assume that they figured out for 15 TU's to save 150 gp, people weren't interested in that. You would be better off crafting for profit 15 times, then buying the item. I agree completely that you should need permission to make Mithral Full Plate of Speed, it's just funny that it is a +1 item. You know, the cost of "Other Mithral Items" is 500 gp/lb. but mithral items weigh half as much. Do you use the original weight or the mithral weight? :) Well, I will consider this thread closed. It answered most of the questions and leaves only a couple open which we really can't do anything about. I wish I had posted this 2 weeks ago during the review period. The special materials crafting would apply to a lot more than mithral and adamantine once you account for all the non-core books (AEG, Races, Sandstorm, etc). Thanks much for your contributions, this was driving me crazy for several days.
Ariel23 02-23-06, 07:38 PM	I agree that the rules should specifically address those special materials, even a single bullet would help immensely. I'm not sure that the crafting of those items needs to be banned, the price is quite steep on all mithril and adamantine except perhaps for mithral light armors and shields. But the value of mithral light armor (Chain shirt, etc) is not that great, as the armor can't get any lighter and unless you have a 20+ DEX. In any event, however it is ruled, it should be explicit. I know for a fact that in old versions of the LGCS you could craft using Craft skills. I can only assume that they figured out for 15 TU's to save 150 gp, people weren't interested in that. You would be better off crafting for profit 15 times, then buying the item. I agree completely that you should need permission to make Mithral Full Plate of Speed, it's just funny that it is a +1 item. You know, the cost of "Other Mithral Items" is 500 gp/lb. but mithral items weigh half as much. Do you use the original weight or the mithral weight? :) Well, I will consider this thread closed. It answered most of the questions and leaves only a couple open which we really can't do anything about. I wish I had posted this 2 weeks ago during the review period. The special materials crafting would apply to a lot more than mithral and adamantine once you account for all the non-core books (AEG, Races, Sandstorm, etc). Thanks much for your contributions, this was driving me crazy for several days.
deusxmachina 02-23-06, 11:33 PM	My final two questions: 1) Crafting from scratch (non-upgrades). Lets say you have no ARs with access to items, you can still freely make a +1 weapon, armor, or shield without documentation? (p. 54 bottom left, first bullet) All of the following have a +1 enchantment bonus: Dagger of Venom Flame Tongue Javelin of Lightning (Magical but no plus) Life Drinker Shatterspike Shifter's Sorrow Slaying Arrows Sleep Arrows Sword of the Planes Sword of Subtlety Trident of Fish Command Mithral Full Plate of Speed Plate Armor of the Deep Absorbing Shield Caster's Shield Spined Shield You can freely make +1 items, but since an item has to already be +1 before getting an enhancement, you'd be trying to craft, in effect, a +2 item. Apparently, according to the rules, my character can craft +1 stuff all day long, but he can't even make plain ol' +2 armor unless he gets an a/r at some point that has +2 armor on it.