Crafting Wands [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crafting Wands [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maesto
02-21-07, 12:00 AM Hi all,

I'm wondering how this is supposed to work.

I have a 15th level wizard with craft wand, banned necromancy, and a UMD of +21.

I want to craft a 10th level wand of ray of enfeeblement using scrolls. Essentially, I can buy some scrolls of ray of enfeeblement and UMD them to provide the spells.

Now, do I need 50 scrolls, or just 8 scrolls to pull this off? (7500 gp is the wand's cost). If I wanted to do this with limited wish instead, would I need 50 limited wishes, or just 8?

Cheers,

Jolyon
Britt
02-21-07, 12:03 AM 8. You have to cast the spell once per day of crafting. We haven't ruled on UMD and crafting, as it is a very confusing issue with lots of grey areas.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-21-07, 01:05 AM 8. You have to cast the spell once per day of crafting. We haven't ruled on UMD and crafting, as it is a very confusing issue with lots of grey areas.

On another note, can he legally use limited wish for that, what with the XP cost? With the UMD, I didn't think there was anything to rule on. If you can use scrolls for crafting, does it really matter how you use the scroll?
Maesto
02-21-07, 01:44 AM I don't see any problem with using limited wish. You need to provide one spell per day. If your only method of providing that spell is via limited wish, then why not? Not everybody can auto-make a UMD check. It just costs 300 xp per day to use limited wish.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-21-07, 01:40 PM I don't see any problem with using limited wish. You need to provide one spell per day. If your only method of providing that spell is via limited wish, then why not? Not everybody can auto-make a UMD check. It just costs 300 xp per day to use limited wish.

Well yeah, but the problem is getting to spend extra XP to do it. Normally, in a mod, you can only spend 50xAPL in XP on spells like that. By doing as part of crafting, you are getting to spend much more XP than you normally would...2400 extra XP spent is a nice speed bump to retirement.
paigeoliver
02-22-07, 06:59 AM It would buy him ONE MODULE, and a teeny bit of change.

The more important thing to ask is WHY a 15th level character would be crafting ANY wands? With 6 or less modules left to go in his career he probably wouldn't use more than a couple charges off the thing before retirement. And those charges would probably be mistakes (hmmm, level 8 spell or level 1 spell, LEVEL 1 SPELL, YEAH!!).

I'm not trying to be insulting, but you might want to think about that for a minute before crafting any more wands.
chesspiece
02-22-07, 11:11 AM The biggest problem IMO relates to this being Wands specifically.

From d20srd:
"Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite Caster level 5th.
Benefit You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know."

Scrolls & Potions have similar language. So if you don't "know" the spell, then you can't MIC these items. Whether Limited Wish gets around this would be a Circle / DM decision. But you certainly shouldn't be able to MIC the wand via UMD & Scrolls as asked by the OP.
Mommy was an Orc
02-23-07, 07:58 PM The biggest problem IMO relates to this being Wands specifically.

From d20srd:
"Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite Caster level 5th.
Benefit You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know."

Scrolls & Potions have similar language. So if you don't "know" the spell, then you can't MIC these items. Whether Limited Wish gets around this would be a Circle / DM decision. But you certainly shouldn't be able to MIC the wand via UMD & Scrolls as asked by the OP.

Sure you should.

Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

For all the item crafting feats(most, but CWI specifically) that don't specify that you 'know the spell' it should be clear cut - if you use a spell completion or spell trigger item, that provides the prerequisite. UMD is one way of doing that.

Know the spell - when you use UMD to use a scroll, you're using it as if it were on your spell list. i.e. you know the spell for purposes of that specific use of the scroll. Which means as far as the magic item is concerned, the spell is on your spell list. It is a magic item after all - fooling magic items is the business of UMD.

If there's a big problem with UMD, it is what happens when you fail to successfully UMD your spell trigger/completion item. Do you get a 2nd shot with another one? Does that waste the day? Does it waste the TU? Does it waste the entire magic item?

That's the part that needs to be cleared up.
copper_wyrmling
02-23-07, 08:16 PM Know the spell - when you use UMD to use a scroll, you're using it as if it were on your spell list. i.e. you know the spell for purposes of that specific use of the scroll. Which means as far as the magic item is concerned, the spell is on your spell list. It is a magic item after all - fooling magic items is the business of UMD.

You're not emulating knowledge of the spell, you're emulating having it on your class spell list. There's a large difference there ;) Craft Wand specifies "a spell that you know". I don't think a sorcerer can use scrolls to craft a wand of a spell that's on their spell list but not on their list of spells-known. If a sorcerer can't do it, nor can a UMD-monkey who's pretending to have the spell on their list. You can't emulate "knowledge of a spell", any more than you can meet other crafting prereqs via UMD (at least, I'm 99% sure you can't emulate race to meet the prereqs to craft a belt of dwarvenkind).

I agree with you on using scrolls for CWI though, and also on the issues with failing your UMD check.
GreatSiron
02-24-07, 12:56 AM i have a question about wands: Can you make a wand of shield?
Timlagor
02-25-07, 10:17 AM You can make a Wand of Shield (if you meet the normal requirements). You can't use it to cast on anyone but yourself (though someone else could use it to cast on themselves).

I see no problem with emulating knowing the spell. You might argue that it's a different DC but it should certainly be possible and I see no particular reason why the DC should be any different.
chesspiece
02-25-07, 11:44 AM However the skill's name (and purpose) is Use Magic Device, not Create Magic Device. As such, I don't assume that it gives any MIC benefits beyond the ones that are clear.

Many items have a prereq that someone (MICer only in LG) cast needed spells once day. This can be done with scrolls / wands. UMD can allow someone to use the scroll / wand if they otherwise couldn't.

But the Scribe Scroll & Craft Wand feats require that you know the spell and not simply cast it. Since the ability to fake this isn't mentioned in UMD, I don't believe it is intended to give that power.
Mommy was an Orc
02-25-07, 11:59 AM But the Scribe Scroll & Craft Wand feats require that you know the spell and not simply cast it. Since the ability to fake this isn't mentioned in UMD, I don't believe it is intended to give that power.

I think that's taking it a bit literally - the word know means it is on your spell list. If you use UMD, it is on your spell list. I don't think it really matters though - the number of people who want to use UMD to use scrolls to craft a wand should be pretty minimal.

By the time you have a high enough UMD score to count for something, what wand that you can't cast anyway are you looking to create? And using a scroll to craft another scroll or a potion is reasonably pointless.
copper_wyrmling
02-25-07, 01:36 PM I think that's taking it a bit literally - the word know means it is on your spell list.

Do you have a reference for that? *looks hopeful* I always read it to mean that you need to have it in your spellbook or list of known spells - e.g. my sorcerer couldn't craft wands of orb of cold, even though it's on her spell list, because she doesn't know the spell (it's not on her list of "spells known"). If she could make a wand of any spell on the sorc/wiz list, then Craft Wand might actually be somewhat worthwhile... especially since once she buys her cloak upgrade she'll have enough UMD to auto-make the checks to read scrolls of L4 and lower cleric/druid spells.
chesspiece
02-25-07, 05:46 PM I agree that it's only relevant to a small subset. UMD and Sorcerors were already mentioned.

Also: Favoured Souls, Splash-1-level-Casters (with Practiced Spellcaster), and Wizards with poor spellbooks.

I realize there isn't a big balance impact and this isn't a crusade for me. I'd be happy to be proven wrong or have it clarified (Circle, FAQ, or Rules Compenium) but for now I'm sticking with the wording used.

Cheers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maesto 02-21-07, 12:00 AM	Hi all, I'm wondering how this is supposed to work. I have a 15th level wizard with craft wand, banned necromancy, and a UMD of +21. I want to craft a 10th level wand of ray of enfeeblement using scrolls. Essentially, I can buy some scrolls of ray of enfeeblement and UMD them to provide the spells. Now, do I need 50 scrolls, or just 8 scrolls to pull this off? (7500 gp is the wand's cost). If I wanted to do this with limited wish instead, would I need 50 limited wishes, or just 8? Cheers, Jolyon
Britt 02-21-07, 12:03 AM	8. You have to cast the spell once per day of crafting. We haven't ruled on UMD and crafting, as it is a very confusing issue with lots of grey areas.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 01:05 AM	8. You have to cast the spell once per day of crafting. We haven't ruled on UMD and crafting, as it is a very confusing issue with lots of grey areas. On another note, can he legally use limited wish for that, what with the XP cost? With the UMD, I didn't think there was anything to rule on. If you can use scrolls for crafting, does it really matter how you use the scroll?
Maesto 02-21-07, 01:44 AM	I don't see any problem with using limited wish. You need to provide one spell per day. If your only method of providing that spell is via limited wish, then why not? Not everybody can auto-make a UMD check. It just costs 300 xp per day to use limited wish.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 01:40 PM	I don't see any problem with using limited wish. You need to provide one spell per day. If your only method of providing that spell is via limited wish, then why not? Not everybody can auto-make a UMD check. It just costs 300 xp per day to use limited wish. Well yeah, but the problem is getting to spend extra XP to do it. Normally, in a mod, you can only spend 50xAPL in XP on spells like that. By doing as part of crafting, you are getting to spend much more XP than you normally would...2400 extra XP spent is a nice speed bump to retirement.
paigeoliver 02-22-07, 06:59 AM	It would buy him ONE MODULE, and a teeny bit of change. The more important thing to ask is WHY a 15th level character would be crafting ANY wands? With 6 or less modules left to go in his career he probably wouldn't use more than a couple charges off the thing before retirement. And those charges would probably be mistakes (hmmm, level 8 spell or level 1 spell, LEVEL 1 SPELL, YEAH!!). I'm not trying to be insulting, but you might want to think about that for a minute before crafting any more wands.
chesspiece 02-22-07, 11:11 AM	The biggest problem IMO relates to this being Wands specifically. From d20srd: "Craft Wand [Item Creation] Prerequisite Caster level 5th. Benefit You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know." Scrolls & Potions have similar language. So if you don't "know" the spell, then you can't MIC these items. Whether Limited Wish gets around this would be a Circle / DM decision. But you certainly shouldn't be able to MIC the wand via UMD & Scrolls as asked by the OP.
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 07:58 PM	The biggest problem IMO relates to this being Wands specifically. From d20srd: "Craft Wand [Item Creation] Prerequisite Caster level 5th. Benefit You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know." Scrolls & Potions have similar language. So if you don't "know" the spell, then you can't MIC these items. Whether Limited Wish gets around this would be a Circle / DM decision. But you certainly shouldn't be able to MIC the wand via UMD & Scrolls as asked by the OP. Sure you should. Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. For all the item crafting feats(most, but CWI specifically) that don't specify that you 'know the spell' it should be clear cut - if you use a spell completion or spell trigger item, that provides the prerequisite. UMD is one way of doing that. Know the spell - when you use UMD to use a scroll, you're using it as if it were on your spell list. i.e. you know the spell for purposes of that specific use of the scroll. Which means as far as the magic item is concerned, the spell is on your spell list. It is a magic item after all - fooling magic items is the business of UMD. If there's a big problem with UMD, it is what happens when you fail to successfully UMD your spell trigger/completion item. Do you get a 2nd shot with another one? Does that waste the day? Does it waste the TU? Does it waste the entire magic item? That's the part that needs to be cleared up.
copper_wyrmling 02-23-07, 08:16 PM	Know the spell - when you use UMD to use a scroll, you're using it as if it were on your spell list. i.e. you know the spell for purposes of that specific use of the scroll. Which means as far as the magic item is concerned, the spell is on your spell list. It is a magic item after all - fooling magic items is the business of UMD. You're not emulating knowledge of the spell, you're emulating having it on your class spell list. There's a large difference there ;) Craft Wand specifies "a spell that you know". I don't think a sorcerer can use scrolls to craft a wand of a spell that's on their spell list but not on their list of spells-known. If a sorcerer can't do it, nor can a UMD-monkey who's pretending to have the spell on their list. You can't emulate "knowledge of a spell", any more than you can meet other crafting prereqs via UMD (at least, I'm 99% sure you can't emulate race to meet the prereqs to craft a belt of dwarvenkind). I agree with you on using scrolls for CWI though, and also on the issues with failing your UMD check.
GreatSiron 02-24-07, 12:56 AM	i have a question about wands: Can you make a wand of shield?
Timlagor 02-25-07, 10:17 AM	You can make a Wand of Shield (if you meet the normal requirements). You can't use it to cast on anyone but yourself (though someone else could use it to cast on themselves). I see no problem with emulating knowing the spell. You might argue that it's a different DC but it should certainly be possible and I see no particular reason why the DC should be any different.
chesspiece 02-25-07, 11:44 AM	However the skill's name (and purpose) is Use Magic Device, not Create Magic Device. As such, I don't assume that it gives any MIC benefits beyond the ones that are clear. Many items have a prereq that someone (MICer only in LG) cast needed spells once day. This can be done with scrolls / wands. UMD can allow someone to use the scroll / wand if they otherwise couldn't. But the Scribe Scroll & Craft Wand feats require that you know the spell and not simply cast it. Since the ability to fake this isn't mentioned in UMD, I don't believe it is intended to give that power.
Mommy was an Orc 02-25-07, 11:59 AM	But the Scribe Scroll & Craft Wand feats require that you know the spell and not simply cast it. Since the ability to fake this isn't mentioned in UMD, I don't believe it is intended to give that power. I think that's taking it a bit literally - the word know means it is on your spell list. If you use UMD, it is on your spell list. I don't think it really matters though - the number of people who want to use UMD to use scrolls to craft a wand should be pretty minimal. By the time you have a high enough UMD score to count for something, what wand that you can't cast anyway are you looking to create? And using a scroll to craft another scroll or a potion is reasonably pointless.
copper_wyrmling 02-25-07, 01:36 PM	I think that's taking it a bit literally - the word know means it is on your spell list. Do you have a reference for that? looks hopeful I always read it to mean that you need to have it in your spellbook or list of known spells - e.g. my sorcerer couldn't craft wands of orb of cold, even though it's on her spell list, because she doesn't know the spell (it's not on her list of "spells known"). If she could make a wand of any spell on the sorc/wiz list, then Craft Wand might actually be somewhat worthwhile... especially since once she buys her cloak upgrade she'll have enough UMD to auto-make the checks to read scrolls of L4 and lower cleric/druid spells.
chesspiece 02-25-07, 05:46 PM	I agree that it's only relevant to a small subset. UMD and Sorcerors were already mentioned. Also: Favoured Souls, Splash-1-level-Casters (with Practiced Spellcaster), and Wizards with poor spellbooks. I realize there isn't a big balance impact and this isn't a crusade for me. I'd be happy to be proven wrong or have it clarified (Circle, FAQ, or Rules Compenium) but for now I'm sticking with the wording used. Cheers.