Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 02-16-08, 06:07 AM	Let's say I have critter that has a default touch attack (like a lich for example). If this creature casts a touch spell and then touches another creature, is the target subject to both the spell and touch attack? Or would you make it the caster's choice if both the spell plus default attack or just the spell went off? Haven't found an official ruling on this...hoping it is in the FAQ somewhere. Cheers.
JamesMaissen 02-16-08, 08:08 AM	Let's say I have critter that has a default touch attack (like a lich for example). If this creature casts a touch spell and then touches another creature, is the target subject to both the spell and touch attack? Or would you make it the caster's choice if both the spell plus default attack or just the spell went off? Haven't found an official ruling on this...hoping it is in the FAQ somewhere. Cheers. If it had cast the spell on a prior round and was holding the charge then, imho, it could deliver both (assuming there was no action to charge the touch attack and that it was not spell like). But if it's casting the spell then using the free touch attack to touch I would not deliver both. -James
Timlagor 02-16-08, 01:03 PM	If the touch attack was a normal attack mode then I'd have both get delivered together. Anyone make an unarmed strike to deliver a touch spell and I don't see that as being significantly different. [or is the unarmed strike only for subsequent rounds?]
MwaO 02-16-08, 03:48 PM	If the touch attack was a normal attack mode then I'd have both get delivered together. Anyone make an unarmed strike to deliver a touch spell and I don't see that as being significantly different. [or is the unarmed strike only for subsequent rounds?] I think I'd agree with James. If you can both cast and strike in the same round(as opposed to just a normal touch), then you're in essence getting two standard actions for the price of 1. If you cast it in a previous round, then touch in a new round, then you're allowed to deliver the spell while doing an unarmed or natural attack of some kind. Then you get both.
Koushiro 02-17-08, 03:09 AM	I wouldn't go that way myself. You can deliver a touch spell with either a special melee touch attack, or deliver it with a natural attack. Your doubling up special attacks and no where in the description of delivering touch spells does it say that you can deliver them with other special attacks I believe. No books here in front of me though, so meh. How about the old, "in a few months we won't care anymore?"
Timlagor 02-17-08, 10:38 AM	I was thinking of things where the touch attack is their default attack. Clearly they couldn't do it in the same round if the touch attack was an (Su) ability.
Koushiro 02-17-08, 12:17 PM	Well being their default attack doens't make it their natural attack, it just makes it their preferred tactic. I think that's right at least.
Timlagor 02-17-08, 03:31 PM	Suppose it's a Wraith or Shadow?
Rerednaw 02-18-08, 09:04 AM	Okay taking this one to Infinite Monkeys :p
clannagh 02-18-08, 11:03 PM	This issue is especially significant for clerics with the harm spell charged. If the DM allows both attack and harm damage to apply, hitting unarmed for nonlethal with a harm charged can be used as an easy way of knocking unconscious any opponent of less than 150 HP. This loophole is not such an issue with lethal damage as it is generally assumed the attack damage would occur before the armed attack and harm then reduces hitpoints to 1 as normal.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-18-08, 11:17 PM	This issue is especially significant for clerics with the harm spell charged. If the DM allows both attack and harm damage to apply, hitting unarmed for nonlethal with a harm charged can be used as an easy way of knocking unconscious any opponent of less than 150 HP. This loophole is not such an issue with lethal damage as it is generally assumed the attack damage would occur before the armed attack and harm then reduces hitpoints to 1 as normal. Hmm...neato idea. Need improved unarmed strike for it to be most useful though. And completely doable by raw thanks to page 73 of Complete Arcane.
_metz_ 02-19-08, 12:21 AM	This issue is especially significant for clerics with the harm spell charged. If the DM allows both attack and harm damage to apply, hitting unarmed for nonlethal with a harm charged can be used as an easy way of knocking unconscious any opponent of less than 150 HP. This loophole is not such an issue with lethal damage as it is generally assumed the attack damage would occur before the armed attack and harm then reduces hitpoints to 1 as normal. Shhhh Glenn, no telling other people the trick :P The subdual rules are a bit odd. I know a sorceror that regularly Fires an Orb at something, then activiates the belt of battle, then subdual disintegrates, as by the RAW, it is great at knocking people out. (assuming they fail their save against the disintegrate)
Maesto 02-19-08, 08:16 AM	Hmm, does having 2 hp of subdual damage mean that the Harm spell will render you unconscious if you don't have enough hitpoints?
MwaO 02-19-08, 08:42 AM	Hmm...neato idea. Need improved unarmed strike for it to be most useful though. And completely doable by raw thanks to page 73 of Complete Arcane. Kind of - you need a standard action to cast the spell and a standard action to make the unarmed strike. The ability to deliver the spell as essentially a free action is part of the spell. If you have enough rounds to do it, you probably have enough rounds to knock him out some other way. I wouldn't mind that kind of interpretation, though, speaking as a Monk Caster who wouldn't mind casting touch spells, moving up to an opponent, and then swinging once.
boolean 02-19-08, 06:59 PM	Kind of - you need a standard action to cast the spell and a standard action to make the unarmed strike. The ability to deliver the spell as essentially a free action is part of the spell. If you have enough rounds to do it, you probably have enough rounds to knock him out some other way. Combining a couple of threads, a Cleric 11/Monk 1 with the Sun School feat and an Anklet of Translocation (or the Knight's Move spell) would be able to do it pretty quickly. 1. Standard action: Cast Harm, holding the charge. 2. Move action: Move towards the opponent (if needed). 3. Swift action: Teleport next to target. 3a: (Undefined action type): Take attack granted by Flash of Sunset, hitting the target for 1d6+Str nonlethal and discharging the Harm.
Oaklock 02-24-08, 07:37 AM	I know that Shocking grasp could be delivered delivered through a regular attack with an all metal weapon(like a sword) in first edition. Does that still work in 3.5?