Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 06-22-07, 01:21 AM	OK .. given a Deep Warden with low dex and high con as a f'rinstance lets make her/him DEX 8 (-1 mod) and CON 16 (+3 mod) First Question: Wearing no armor ... is he: a) AC 13 (10 + 3 [con] ) or b) AC 12 (10 - 1 [dex] + 3 [con] ) ??? 2nd Question: This question assumes we agreed on answer b) (its not relevant if the answer to the first part was a) ) Wearing full plate (AC +8, max bonus to AC of +2) is he: a) AC 20 (10 + 8[armor] + 2 [con - dex] ) or b) AC 19 (10 + 8[armor] + 2[con limited by armor] - 1 [dex] Rational discussion please not "all the DM's in my region do it this way".
bitznarf 06-22-07, 01:34 AM	OK .. given a Deep Warden with low dex and high con as a f'rinstance lets make her/him DEX 8 (-1 mod) and CON 16 (+3 mod) First Question: Wearing no armor ... is he: a) AC 13 (10 + 3 [con] ) or b) AC 12 (10 - 1 [dex] + 3 [con] ) ??? Table variation here, as explained somewhat in the Bear Warrior thread. Either version is entirely supportable in my opinion. I personally lean toward 1b. 2nd Question: This question assumes we agreed on answer b) (its not relevant if the answer to the first part was a) ) Wearing full plate (AC +8, max bonus to AC of +2) is he: a) AC 20 (10 + 8[armor] + 2 [con - dex] ) or b) AC 19 (10 + 8[armor] + 2[con limited by armor] - 1 [dex] Thats a weird one. Assuming that we are going with answer 1b, I would probably goth with answer 2a along with it. My rationale would be that if we are going to include a Dex penalty in the AC calculations, we would need to include it everywhere it would normally go. I'm interested in other peoples opinion on this one. By the way, how is this full plate getting a max dex bonus of +2? Heavy Armour Optimization or some such?
GorTeX 06-22-07, 01:46 AM	Lets look at the skill shall we? Stone Warden (EX): Beginning at 2nd level, a Deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC intead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher.... So, the skill says to add your CON Bonus INSTEAD of your DEX bonus to your AC (if your CON is higher than your DEX). that makes the answers: AC 13 And AC 19 --but only because Full Plate has a Max Dex Bonus of +1, not +2, so it's 10+8[armor]+1[CON +3, maxed at 1 due to armor and LGCS rules] DEX does not factor into the AC of a Deepwarden of level 2 or higher (unless his/her DEX is higher than their CON).
_metz_ 06-22-07, 02:22 AM	There are strongly held views either way. There is some argument that as the text specifically mentions a 'bonus' (and the difference between a bonus and penalty having been clearly stipulated in the rules) then you are still stuck with any penalty. Others contest that 'bonus' can be negative and it is the intent of the class to replace dex with con. (e.g: capping armour values, flat footed, etc.) I personally believe this statement to be the clinching factor: "if the character's Constitution bonus is higher...." That means that AS +3 is a higher bonus then -1, it is replaced. This prevents the -1 Bonus form being a PENALTY as well. (A -1 modifier being simultaneously a negative bonus and a penalty) However the treatment of penalties vs bonuses and definitional terms of these in the rules is not entirely clear and until there is a definitive answer there WILL be table variation. This is a core rules issue as well so not solvable by Britt. But having a decent thread on the issues might help sway any prospective DM. As to your question of: a) AC 20 (10 + 8[armor] + 2 [con - dex] ) or b) AC 19 (10 + 8[armor] + 2[con limited by armor] - 1 [dex] As penalties and bonuses are applied PRIOR to the application of things like max dex, (e.g: blinded then primal scream, bonuses/penalties taken into account before application of armour dex cap) it would be: +3-1 =+2 Bonus on your AC from con/dex. SO the answer would be a), to the second Question.
CSHunt68 06-22-07, 09:32 AM	The word "bonus" is used as a generic term to apply to the modifier attached to an attribute. A bonus may be positive or negative. The DEX modifier does not apply to the AC of a Deepwarden with the Stone Warden ability.
KShaver 06-22-07, 09:44 AM	The word "bonus" is used as a generic term to apply to the modifier attached to an attribute. A bonus may be positive or negative. There are clear examples in the rules where this is not true. Example being flat footed, where you lose your dexterity bonus to your ac.
_metz_ 06-22-07, 09:46 AM	The word "bonus" is used as a generic term to apply to the modifier attached to an attribute. A bonus may be positive or negative. The DEX modifier does not apply to the AC of a Deepwarden with the Stone Warden ability. I agree, in mathematics bonuses can be negative or positive, and I believe it is the INTENT to replace the Dex MODIFIER, but that isn't what is written. There are distinctions in the DnD game mechanic between bonus and penalty. The when 'flat footed' you lose your 'bonus' but retain your 'penalty' is an example of this. Your Dex bonus doesn't apply. If in DnD Bonus = modifier then the penalty wouldn't apply either, but it does. Herein lies the RAW issue. This is a precedent of a distinction, and part of the main arguement that a dex penalty is not lost even though the con bonus is added.
_metz_ 06-22-07, 09:47 AM	There are clear examples in the rules where this is not true. Example being flat footed, where you lose your dexterity bonus to your ac. lol posted at the same time with the example hehehe
CSHunt68 06-22-07, 11:53 AM	The problem is, these "clear examples" are so clear that they've been addressed in FAQs and such. That is, where the word "bonus" is only meant to apply to a positive modifier, WotC has cleared that up. I stand by my statement.
bitznarf 06-22-07, 11:58 AM	The word "bonus" is used as a generic term to apply to the modifier attached to an attribute. A bonus may be positive or negative. The problem is, these "clear examples" are so clear that they've been addressed in FAQs and such. That is, where the word "bonus" is only meant to apply to a positive modifier, WotC has cleared that up. I stand by my statement. You're statement (if you are referring to the one I quoted above) is wrong: A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.
CSHunt68 06-22-07, 12:02 PM	In many cases throughout the rules, the word "bonus", as you define it, is used for the word "modifier". Which is why they've felt the need to clarify certain instances.
Mommy was an Orc 06-22-07, 12:04 PM	I'd give him AC 13 - the dex bonus is replaced by the con bonus. This is near-impossible in LG, but suppose some Deep Warden had a 6 Dexterity and 8 Constitution - would people then argue that he should have a -3 penalty or that he can't use his Constitution penalty instead of his Dexterity penalty? I think a better armor choice for your 2nd question is Chainmail - if someone is wearing Chainmail, then they have a max dex bonus of +2. So do they get +1 to AC(max +2 to AC from Con, -1 penalty) or +2 to AC(+3-1) OK .. given a Deep Warden with low dex and high con as a f'rinstance lets make her/him DEX 8 (-1 mod) and CON 16 (+3 mod) First Question: Wearing no armor ... is he: a) AC 13 (10 + 3 [con] ) or b) AC 12 (10 - 1 [dex] + 3 [con] ) ??? 2nd Question: This question assumes we agreed on answer b) (its not relevant if the answer to the first part was a) ) Wearing full plate (AC +8, max bonus to AC of +2) is he: a) AC 20 (10 + 8[armor] + 2 [con - dex] ) or b) AC 19 (10 + 8[armor] + 2[con limited by armor] - 1 [dex] Rational discussion please not "all the DM's in my region do it this way".
King Kashue 06-22-07, 11:41 PM	In many cases throughout the rules, the word "bonus", as you define it, is used for the word "modifier". Which is why they've felt the need to clarify certain instances. And, have they clarified anything in regard to the deepwarden? ;) They've made specific errata/clarifications in specific cases, they have not made a general statement, and until they make a specific mention in regard to deepwarden, the RAW are the RAW...
CSHunt68 06-23-07, 12:05 AM	Fine, so if the Deepwarden has no Constitution bonus, but rather a penalty, then Stone Warden doesn't apply. Makes no sense. I'd argue spirit of the rules on that one - until it comes out in a FAQ. ;)
_metz_ 06-23-07, 12:20 AM	I'd argue spirit of the rules on that one - until it comes out in a FAQ. ;) I totally agree. ANd at this point most DMs don't make the penalty apply in my area. However, he asked for a RAW clarification, not that exact point :) RAW - the penalty can apply, but that doesn't appear to be the intent of the situation. Table Variation for the win. Expect both. Easy way to avoid it is have dex 10.
Zanzibax 06-24-07, 10:41 AM	I'd give him AC 13 - the dex bonus is replaced by the con bonus. This is near-impossible in LG, but suppose some Deep Warden had a 6 Dexterity and 8 Constitution - would people then argue that he should have a -3 penalty or that he can't use his Constitution penalty instead of his Dexterity penalty? I think a better armor choice for your 2nd question is Chainmail - if someone is wearing Chainmail, then they have a max dex bonus of +2. So do they get +1 to AC(max +2 to AC from Con, -1 penalty) or +2 to AC(+3-1) Actually, given the arguments, they'd stack them.
Timlagor 06-24-07, 02:35 PM	Has anyone pointed out that Full Plate has a Max Dex allowance of +1?
clannagh 06-24-07, 08:30 PM	Has anyone pointed out that Full Plate has a Max Dex allowance of +1? yeah .. when i asked the question i was thinking of a character with a heavy armor feat not to matter .. as mommy points out above the question can be formulated with chain mail as an example .. there are actually any number of cases where the decision of whether to apply the dex penalty before or after taking acount of armor will effect AC.
_metz_ 06-24-07, 09:45 PM	yeah .. when i asked the question i was thinking of a character with a heavy armor feat not to matter .. as mommy points out above the question can be formulated with chain mail as an example .. there are actually any number of cases where the decision of whether to apply the dex penalty before or after taking acount of armor will effect AC. They are two modifiers from differing sources, however they are for all intents and purposes treated as Dex when coming to armour caps (LG ruling seems to make this clear in intent) Its like two differing sources of dex combining together: 14 Dex +6 Primal Scream = +5 Mod Armoour allows max +4 If mods are taken into account separately then AS both sources are LESS than +4 then both would seem to apply. However such modifiers are calculated PRIOR to armour so that their combined total is used. AS The deepwarden bonus acts like a dex modifier it should be calculated AS one as there is not statement to any other effect in the stonewarden ability.
lseelba 06-24-07, 11:01 PM	Armor Class Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following: 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC. Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC. (If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.) Ability Modifiers: The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. Stone Warden (EX): Beginning at 2nd level, a Deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC intead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher.... I agree that RAW you can't get rid of that -1 Dex penalty. If Stone Warden was meant to do that, it should have used the word modifier throughout.
clannagh 06-25-07, 12:21 AM	Ability Modifiers: I agree that RAW you can't get rid of that -1 Dex penalty. If Stone Warden was meant to do that, it should have used the word modifier throughout. I am pretty sure the dex penalty applies and most GM's either don't check the PC's exact armor makeup and trust the player .. or simply have never thought about the issue at all. It's the second part of the question I was really interested in. If, as i personally believe, you get the total (con bonus - dex penalty) armor bonus first and check this figure against max dex with your armor, then a middle/high con, dex 8 dwarf can still reach max AC for a given armor class and be viable.
viceregal 06-25-07, 02:38 AM	I am pretty sure the dex penalty applies and most GM's either don't check the PC's exact armor makeup and trust the player .. or simply have never thought about the issue at all. I go with the last bit - never once occured to me that that was an issue - ie just replaced the dex with the con and away. In terms of the order you do it in I would think that you (like in other places) get to chose to apply it in the order most advantageous to you (ie con-dex then capped not con capped then minus dex .....
_metz_ 06-25-07, 07:13 AM	I am pretty sure the dex penalty applies and most GM's either don't check the PC's exact armor makeup and trust the player .. or simply have never thought about the issue at all. It's the second part of the question I was really interested in. If, as i personally believe, you get the total (con bonus - dex penalty) armor bonus first and check this figure against max dex with your armor, then a middle/high con, dex 8 dwarf can still reach max AC for a given armor class and be viable. That is my exact interpretation of the rule, and exactly what I plan to do when my character gets to level 7 :) (At the moment just wears heavy plate and a shield, grins and bears it :)) As the Con bonus is BEING treated as a dex bonus I don't see why it would follow any differing rules to various sorts of dex bonuses in being stacked prior to armour. There is no text in stonewarden to any other effect.