Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 08-30-07, 08:52 PM	I've run across this in a few modules and was looking for some opinions. An encounter, as written is built so well to the point that you think it is designed to take out a min-maxed party. Then the author adds a note along the lines of "because if creature X used his actual ability he would become too powerful, we are removing/limiting it." Now if a player character were in a similar situation, he would actually be able to do what the author has taken away from the NPCs. He'd probably appeal all the way up if one of his character's inherent abilities was arbitrally removed. Along the lines of "casting is too powerful, so for the duration of this module, all casting is disabled." Or "favored enemy makes this encounter too easy, so all foes of the ranger are automatically immune to it." And so on. In another case, I ran into the situation where a party of characters can take out an untiered enounter of well, EL+14. If I was playing a high-level game, I would pretty upset if I had a 15+ level character got taken out by a party of baseline orcs. Unless the character was being grossly incompetent and stupid, in which case he'd deserve it. Which begs the question how did he survive to high level anyway? Or maybe this is more of the 'it's the last year, let's go out with wacky stuff' syndrome. Thoughts?
jstorrie 08-30-07, 10:56 PM	I don't see anything wrong with this.
jhorred 08-31-07, 01:26 AM	The author can hamstring the bad guys all he wants, but the GM can't hamstring the PCs in a similar manner. So I see nothing wrong and I think I know what mod you are talking about with the EL +14 thing. I thought that was really cool. It's not the first time I've seen something along that lines, like a CR12 bad guy with a +0 BAB. Things like this set up situations where the PCs can take on baddies that they wouldn't normally be able to take on. It makes for a good story.
Iswald 08-31-07, 11:11 AM	Then the author adds a note along the lines of "because if creature X used his actual ability he would become too powerful, we are removing/limiting it." Now if a player character were in a similar situation, he would actually be able to do what the author has taken away from the NPCs. He'd probably appeal all the way up if one of his character's inherent abilities was arbitrally removed. Along the lines of "casting is too powerful, so for the duration of this module, all casting is disabled." Or "favored enemy makes this encounter too easy, so all foes of the ranger are automatically immune to it." And so on. You've considered druids in your equation? How often to authors take away animal companions? Mounted characters? These things happen regularly. It would perhaps be better to say that the NPC has used their special abilities or spells already for some other purpose. Still, the result would be the same.
Vamroc 09-03-07, 07:08 PM	You want to talk unfair who put's a full Vampire with seven levels of Wizard in to a APL6 encounter. No joke we had to walk down a ten foot wide forty foot long hallway. He openned up with Evard's Black Tentecles placing it in the hallway near the entrance. Then he almost got off Summon Undead IV but we had a ranger who would ready to attack untill the silence went up. That fight took us over an hour because we only had two people and one animal who made the grapple check. Of those two people they had to share one magic weapon. The weapon wasn't even silver and the Vampire had a DR of like ten. So if a DM wants to weaken an encounter be my guest
control freak 09-03-07, 07:29 PM	CR 19 dragon untiered, brought down by 1 5th level cleric via a max damage shivering touch (he had access) and the dragon didnt have SR listed in his stat block even though it should have so the dragon got stomped by a APL6 party playing up because dragon -17 dex isnt a dragon at all, just a shell lol and since our rogue was a really nasty SAer he goes coup de gra and rolls up max damage full PAing.... guess what not even dragons can take a X3 coup de gra with full PA... as for DM softballing i believe that it should only occure on APL + 4 or more encounters as those shouldnt occure very often or should include good things for the PCs
JamesMaissen 09-03-07, 07:45 PM	CR 19 dragon untiered, brought down by 1 5th level cleric via a max damage shivering touch (he had access) Funny I thought the spell was closed. Wonder what gave him access... -James
Hariman 09-03-07, 08:22 PM	You want to talk unfair who put's a full Vampire with seven levels of Wizard in to a APL6 encounter. No joke we had to walk down a ten foot wide forty foot long hallway. He opened up with Evard's Black Tentecles placing it in the hallway near the entrance. Then he almost got off Summon Undead IV but we had a ranger who would ready to attack untill the silence went up. That fight took us over an hour because we only had two people and one animal who made the grapple check. Of those two people they had to share one magic weapon. The weapon wasn't even silver and the Vampire had a DR of like ten. So if a DM wants to weaken an encounter be my guest Oof. I know that encounter. You're lucky/good if it didn't kill you. It nearly TPK'd my party. The only thing that saved us was a Time Stop favor. And even then we had 2 or 3 deaths. It's manageable, but brutal. And it wasn't even a well written mod.
_metz_ 09-04-07, 02:37 AM	Funny I thought the spell was closed. Wonder what gave him access... -James Its easy to do silly stupid things when you ignore the rules. Its also very easy for Dms to kill PCs. Deliberately weakening encounters is when a mod writer thinks EL adjustment is not properly calculated, or a beastie is under CRed, yet for some reason, it fits well with the mod. Hence you just nub it a bit so the module still plays well. Examples of under CR beasties: Anything with unassociated levels and Practiced Spellcaster/Spell like abilities, Mobs, certain Demons (Succubus summoning a Vrock anyone?) and so on. ITs a good way to ensure you put in monsters that make sense/flow with the story, whilst still catering for a balanced module that non optimised parties can deal with.
KShaver 09-04-07, 09:05 AM	Now if a player character were in a similar situation, he would actually be able to do what the author has taken away from the NPCs. He'd probably appeal all the way up if one of his character's inherent abilities was arbitrally removed. Theres plenty of encounters/mods that remove specific abilities from the PCs, from dissalowing teleportation spells to making your summons work against you.
Rerednaw 09-04-07, 10:33 AM	Theres plenty of encounters/mods that remove specific abilities from the PCs, from dissalowing teleportation spells to making your summons work against you. Okay let me rephrase...all your class abilities will be removed for this encounter. Except for hit points. All of your 'panic button items' will not function. I'm not talking about a single spell, or even a mount for a charge build (though to be honest while I hear players complain about it a lot, IME it has never happened.) I've only run into an animal companion being excluded once...and even that didn't happen because the character had access that allowed him to bring his AC along anyway. I'm only talking about my limited experience of course, everyone else may have a different story. The encounter I am referring to, the party had a 0% chance of failure. So we won...it just did not feel like a hard-won, epic victory. I felt like I was walking Pelennor Fields coming across Angmar just as Eowyn drives her sword through his head, kicking some dirt on him, and suddenly, woo-hoo I beat the encounter! We won, now gimme my access! I wasn't the only one at the table who felt that way.
jhorred 09-04-07, 05:27 PM	I think I know what encounter you are talking about. I see that part of the mod as more of a story encounter than a true combat encounter.
solbergb 09-05-07, 01:32 PM	You want to talk unfair who put's a full Vampire with seven levels of Wizard in to a APL6 encounter. Don't actually see anything wrong with that. He's a CR7 monster with a +2 CR template attached, and APL6 supports CR9. Typical anti-wizard tactics (eg, silence spell or readied actions to interrupt spellcasting) will swiftly reduce him to his template powers, probably not optomized as wizards don't tend to have str or cha which power most of the vampire tricks and offense. I'd rather face the vampire/wizard than a level 9 wizard, quite frankly. Even if he opens up with an evards (a perfectly normal thing to expect to encounter at APL6 vs a wizard) the Vamp/wiz's grapple check is two less than the L9 wizard doing the same thing (and the L9 guy can follow up with a quickened spell, or sculpt the evards or do other ugly things, plus has an extra feat to play with) I also really don't have any sympathy for level 6 PC's that can't manage to come up with a way to defeat silver+magic DR. As for druids, I haven't seen anything explicitly excluding animal companions since year 3. Authors got less stupid about that. Sometimes the better combat forms may not be socially acceptable, or have trouble fitting in confined spaces, but savvy druids usually have a plan for that (bring a dog or horse to city adventures, use reduce animal for confined spaces, encourage the party arcanist to use "Veil" to make the reduced giant crocodile look like a horse in Greyhawk, etc)
Mattastrophic 09-05-07, 03:21 PM	I'd rather face the vampire/wizard than a level 9 wizard, quite frankly. Seriously. If you're having trouble with a Vampire Wizard7, then you're probably also going to have the same troubles with a Human Wizard7. Consider yourselves lucky, in fact, that it wasn't a Human Wizard9. -Matt
jstorrie 09-05-07, 04:32 PM	Well, the vampire wizard has DR and enough special abilities to be a melee threat–so the usual 'charge up and grapple/smack the wizard' strategy that would work okay against a Wiz7 may fail completely against a Vampire Wiz7, who is more than capable of smacking the tank around with energy draining AoOs and dominates...
solbergb 09-05-07, 05:18 PM	If he's energy draining or dominating the melee, he's not evardsing the party....and the described problem was the evards and the DR. It's pretty much inexcusable for an archer to not have a magic bow and silver arrows by APL6...and it is also pretty much inexcusable for a melee character to not have a silver weapon and oil of bless weapon by APL6. Or at least some holy water. This is basic stuff that is available on your first AR. Sometimes a party needs its tail kicked in order to learn better tactics or preparation next time. (whose BBEG in the last APL6 mod I ran had his keystone spell foiled by a readied silence spell from a PC cleric....who learned the tactic by getting his cure spell disrupted with a silence by an enemy beguiler in a prior encounter...)
copper_wyrmling 09-05-07, 05:48 PM	It's pretty much inexcusable for an archer to not have a magic bow and silver arrows by APL6...and it is also pretty much inexcusable for a melee character to not have a silver weapon and oil of bless weapon by APL6. Or at least some holy water. This is basic stuff that is available on your first AR. Amen. A couple of years ago, I ran a certain APL 2-12 Perrenland mod at multiple slots at a convention - the first encounter involved fiends, the second involved swarms, and the third involved vampires (or vampire spawn at the lowest APLs). The first table I ran was APL 6. They got comprehensively beaten up in every encounter, and failed the mod. In the fiend encounter, only one person in the party had cold iron (the archer - cold iron arrows); in the vampire encounter, only one person had a silver weapon (the monk, with a silver kama). They thought the mod was insanely tough. The second table I ran was APL 2. Every single PC on that table, including the arcanist, had at least a nonmasterwork silver and cold iron weapon (or silver + cold iron arrows). When we got to the swarm encounter, it turned out they also had acid and alchemist's fire. They thought the mod was an utter cakewalk. It's really sad when the APL 2 party could probably have done a better job with the APL 6 encounters than the APL 6 party managed, but it was a very good demonstration of (a) how easy it is to cover the basics, and (b) how fast the situation can go downhill without them.
clannagh 09-05-07, 07:07 PM	Ironically for melee fighters the DR reducing stuff is more important at mid and low levels as by the time you are doing 2d6 +38 evey hit DR10 is not a huge inconvenience. DR is always an issue for an archer.
Hariman 09-07-07, 08:13 PM	Amen. A couple of years ago, I ran a certain APL 2-12 Perrenland mod at multiple slots at a convention - the first encounter involved fiends, the second involved swarms, and the third involved vampires (or vampire spawn at the lowest APLs). The first table I ran was APL 6. They got comprehensively beaten up in every encounter, and failed the mod. In the fiend encounter, only one person in the party had cold iron (the archer - cold iron arrows); in the vampire encounter, only one person had a silver weapon (the monk, with a silver kama). They thought the mod was insanely tough. The second table I ran was APL 2. Every single PC on that table, including the arcanist, had at least a nonmasterwork silver and cold iron weapon (or silver + cold iron arrows). When we got to the swarm encounter, it turned out they also had acid and alchemist's fire. They thought the mod was an utter cakewalk. It's really sad when the APL 2 party could probably have done a better job with the APL 6 encounters than the APL 6 party managed, but it was a very good demonstration of (a) how easy it is to cover the basics, and (b) how fast the situation can go downhill without them. Which is why my sorcerer has Burning Hands, and my other characters carry alchemist's fires and acid flasks and often holy waters. Even a wizard or sorcerer should carry a silver sickle and cold iron sickle. (Or daggers, for wizards) The ability to hand them to party members who DON'T have them in invaluable. Heck, you could justify a sorcerer buying an adamantine longspear, just in case. Also, buying wands of Cure Light Wounds, Enlarge Person, and Magic Missile doesn't hurt. Melee characters should provide their own enlarges instead of asking the caster to buy a scroll. And Happy Sticks are a must for everyone. Also, if you get access to a Lesser Vigor Wand, BUY IT. It's worth far more than a cure light wand for out of combat healing. Seriously. If you're having trouble with a Vampire Wizard7, then you're probably also going to have the same troubles with a Human Wizard7. Consider yourselves lucky, in fact, that it wasn't a Human Wizard9. -Matt *Snicker* You haven't played the mod! (I mean no offense by this, but his is a mean, vicious, set the party up for a long/hard encounter and watch them suffer kind of situation.) You'll know it if you play it and you'll probably not like it either. It is a BRUTAL encounter. Even well equipped parties can have trouble with it. I'll tell you about it next year, as it should retire at the end of this year. And a Human Wizard 9 would have been easier to deal with, because the vampire slam (1d4 negative levels) and the spells cast are decidedly anti party. Actually, they're tactics a PC would use in the same situation. And yes, I am taking into account that some parties will cakewalk the encounter. BUT they'll need to be both lucky and well equipped. Or very, very lucky.
control freak 09-07-07, 09:15 PM	And a Human Wizard 9 would have been easier to deal with, because the vampire slam (1d4 negative levels) and the spells cast are decidedly anti party. no fort save o.O strange and if it only had 7 wizard levels it can be vaporized by any resonably built 7th level (or even just 6th with good gear) and a decent turning check (as 11th level cleric or even HIGHER if phyliac or tally of undead turning)
solbergb 09-07-07, 11:28 PM	And a Human Wizard 9 would have been easier to deal with, because the vampire slam (1d4 negative levels) and the spells cast are decidedly anti party. Vampire slams do 2 neg levels. not 1d4. 1d4 is enervation. A round he's slamming is a round he's not casting. Frankly I'd be more worried by evards or solid fog followed up by cloudkill at APL6. Which is something a L9 caster can do that a vampire/l7 caster can not. Indeed I was playtesting somebody's module at APL10 recently and recommended a combatant get moved to a different encounter because the opening tactic (evards+cloudkill) was sufficient to challenge the party (with the other stuff going on in later rounds) without adding a third participant. Plus the next encounter was understrength.
Hariman 09-08-07, 03:19 AM	Vampire slams do 2 neg levels. not 1d4. 1d4 is enervation. A round he's slamming is a round he's not casting. Frankly I'd be more worried by evards or solid fog followed up by cloudkill at APL6. Which is something a L9 caster can do that a vampire/l7 caster can not. Indeed I was playtesting somebody's module at APL10 recently and recommended a combatant get moved to a different encounter because the opening tactic (evards+cloudkill) was sufficient to challenge the party (with the other stuff going on in later rounds) without adding a third participant. Plus the next encounter was understrength. Sorry, can't say more than I already have. But those 2 negative levels were enough to kill my character after what had already happened. It's a long story, which I can't fully tell without spoiling the mod. But trust me on this, even a well equipped/lucky party will get hurt. The vampire wizard uses VERY good tactics as written. And, on a different note, this mod killed 3 party members and it took a timestop favor to prevent a TPK. Some bad tactics and bad luck didn't help. And lacking a cleric didn't help. (Having no cleric NEVER helps.) But it's still an ugly fight in an ugly mod. Let me put it this way: One of the DMs in my area refuses to run certain mods because he's killed too many PCs with Killer Mods. THE MOD WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ONE OF THOSE MODS! Not to mention that DMs are SUPPOSED to run encounters "as written" in the mods. Really, just take my word for it. It's a rough fight that is more likely to kill SOMEONE than many other fights. Hariman PS: As for the original issue, as this thread has developed wanderlust, it's perfectly fine to have certain abilities crossed off to prevent TPKs. Blasphemy on advanced fiends, the succubus' "summon vrock" BS, and other such abilities are all fair game for removal. After all, we're supposed to have fun, not beat our heads off of walls. PPS: As a side note, I don't blame the DM for my character's death in the mod in question. The F**** WRITER, a bad choice of a spell, multiple failed will saves, and a number of other spoileriffic factors.
Mattastrophic 09-09-07, 12:59 PM	But trust me on this, even a well equipped/lucky party will get hurt. If the rest of the module was what did you in, why complain about a Vampire Wizard? Anyways, yes, I've dealt with quite a few Vampires before, particularly in Gran March, including several Wizards. They rolled over just fine, by readying to interrupt spellcasting mainly, as well as stuff like Magic Circle and ProtEvil for the domination. Death is a learning experience, not a complaint opportunity. By complaining, you're claiming that there was nothing you could've done differently, when in reality you probably could've, but either you didn't know what to do, or you were focusing on animosity towards the author rather than finding a solution. It's a pet peeve of mine to see "If someone dies, it's always the author's fault." Case in point: Recent Duchy of Urnst convention. My table plays smart and takes out an encounter, while I soon hear whining and complaining from the more powerful table beside us playing the same module at the same APL. Maybe, if they would've actually tried to survive rather than sit there complaining about the author (always the author) while the combat was happening, they would've made it. -Matt
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-07, 02:13 PM	I've gotta say, I'd much rather fight a Vampire Wizard 7 than a Wizard 9 at APL 6. What a standard Wizard 9 has access to is just so much more superior than whatever a Vampire Wizard 7 can do. If anything, I think the RPGA tends to put in templates so they don't TPK parties on a regular basis where Wizards are involved. Look at the following spells a 20 Int run of the mill Wizard 9 can cast straight out of PHB: Evard's with a +17 check vs +15 check - a +6 BAB Fighter who started with an 18 Str and has Reckless Rage/Gauntlets +2 only has a +14. The +15 will probably be broken out of within a round. The +17 is a different story. And that's the tweaked BDF we're talking about here, not the run of the mill one you typically play with. Most characters are going to be truly stuck. Invisibility + Silenced Improved Invisibility = instead of starting the encounter immediately, the Wizard pops off the Silenced Improved Invisibility. Then the Wizard casts Evard's. This isn't the weird 'oh, we happened to cast Improved Invisibility the round before you came through the door. Good thing you came right in...' Cloudkill - anyone playing up? Whoops - how many DC 20 Fort saves can you make? Anyone haplessly stuck in an Evard's while a DC 20 Cloudkill passes through for 3-8 rounds? Empower Fireball - everyone got 40 hp for that DC 18 Fireball? How about after taking 1d6+4 from the Evard's? If we want to be really mean, Metamagic School Focus for Maximize Fireball. Everyone got 54 hp for that Fireball? Wall of Force - hey, why are only the 2 frontliners able to get to the wizard. Anyone got a scroll of Disintegrate or Dimension Door to use after we get out of this Evard's? Fly/Overland Flight - hey, why can't those 2 Fighters up front by themselves reach the Improved Invisible Flying Wizard who is throwing 12d6 Empowered Scorching Rays at them, while we're mostly stuck in this Evard's and behind this Force Wall. And hey, can anyone see them? Anyone? I can't see through this Cloudkill? Anyone at all?
Mattastrophic 09-09-07, 07:04 PM	BRAVO for those descriptions! You're right about "nerfing" spellcasters with templates and prestige classes, too. See a certain Y7 Blood Magus for an excellent example. If anything, I think the RPGA tends to put in templates so they don't TPK parties on a regular basis where Wizards are involved. -Matt
Hariman 09-10-07, 12:29 AM	If the rest of the module was what did you in, why complain about a Vampire Wizard? Anyways, yes, I've dealt with quite a few Vampires before, particularly in Gran March, including several Wizards. They rolled over just fine, by readying to interrupt spellcasting mainly, as well as stuff like Magic Circle and ProtEvil for the domination. Death is a learning experience, not a complaint opportunity. By complaining, you're claiming that there was nothing you could've done differently, when in reality you probably could've, but either you didn't know what to do, or you were focusing on animosity towards the author rather than finding a solution. It's a pet peeve of mine to see "If someone dies, it's always the author's fault." -Matt Read my above posts. I do acknowledge that my own mistakes didn't help. And if you ever play the module, make sure you get to read the instructions for the DM and you'll understand why I blame the author as much as I do. I've gotta say, I'd much rather fight a Vampire Wizard 7 than a Wizard 9 at APL 6. What a standard Wizard 9 has access to is just so much more superior than whatever a Vampire Wizard 7 can do. If anything, I think the RPGA tends to put in templates so they don't TPK parties on a regular basis where Wizards are involved. Look at the following spells a 20 Int run of the mill Wizard 9 can cast straight out of PHB: Evard's with a +17 check vs +15 check - a +6 BAB Fighter who started with an 18 Str and has Reckless Rage/Gauntlets +2 only has a +14. The +15 will probably be broken out of within a round. The +17 is a different story. And that's the tweaked BDF we're talking about here, not the run of the mill one you typically play with. Most characters are going to be truly stuck. Invisibility + Silenced Improved Invisibility = instead of starting the encounter immediately, the Wizard pops off the Silenced Improved Invisibility. Then the Wizard casts Evard's. This isn't the weird 'oh, we happened to cast Improved Invisibility the round before you came through the door. Good thing you came right in...' Cloudkill - anyone playing up? Whoops - how many DC 20 Fort saves can you make? Anyone haplessly stuck in an Evard's while a DC 20 Cloudkill passes through for 3-8 rounds? Empower Fireball - everyone got 40 hp for that DC 18 Fireball? How about after taking 1d6+4 from the Evard's? If we want to be really mean, Metamagic School Focus for Maximize Fireball. Everyone got 54 hp for that Fireball? Wall of Force - hey, why are only the 2 frontliners able to get to the wizard. Anyone got a scroll of Disintegrate or Dimension Door to use after we get out of this Evard's? Fly/Overland Flight - hey, why can't those 2 Fighters up front by themselves reach the Improved Invisible Flying Wizard who is throwing 12d6 Empowered Scorching Rays at them, while we're mostly stuck in this Evard's and behind this Force Wall. And hey, can anyone see them? Anyone? I can't see through this Cloudkill? Anyone at all? Eh. I'd rather see a level 8 caster with proper adjustments for situational advantage and terrain advantages taken into account. And templates are a pet peeve of mine. I've seen far too many fiendish or dire or other templated enemies for any "nerfing" to be justifiable. Also, if you add abilities that cover one weakness of an enemy via a template, doesn't that make the "template weakened" NPC worse? From what I saw, adding Vampire to a level 7 wizard made him a credible melee threat (what with that slam attack) and provided a number of defensive abilities that made up for wizard weaknesses. Oh, yeah, and changing those 7d4HP (21 HP) to 7d12HP (49) while adding fast healing 5 is surely an added weakness. Why, it can't help him at all. Not one bit. I would rather have heard "he's Tiefling" or "he's Fiendish", cause vampire ain't fun, not when it doubles the HP you'd have to deal with AND includes fast healing. So kiddies, remember your silver weapons, bring oils of bless weapon, always have a potion or scroll of fly. Among other things.
Iswald 09-10-07, 09:06 AM	It's a pet peeve of mine to see "If someone dies, it's always the author's fault." Case in point: Recent Duchy of Urnst convention. My table plays smart and takes out an encounter, while I soon hear whining and complaining from the more powerful table beside us playing the same module at the same APL. Maybe, if they would've actually tried to survive rather than sit there complaining about the author (always the author) while the combat was happening, they would've made it. -Matt It's not always the author's fault but, it's pretty common. There was a year 5 Highfolk mod which contained crystal golems or some such. The only way we could have damaged them is using sonic weapons or spells. Our BDF did something retarded (well, a kid was playing him) and died. It would not have mattered though, since he wouldn't have been able to do more damage to them than he would have taken. Not to mention they had fast healing. Or, consider another mod where the party is in a room filling with water. The only way out is by using magic or beating your way through a stone ceiling and then a closed trap door. Another case of poor writing is having an NPC join and aid the party if they roll 50+ on a diplomacy check. Otherwise, they are either attacked immediately or ambushed shortly later. Authors include a lot of stupid things. So, yeah, they should expect to take some heat for doing so. But, again, it's not always the authors at fault. It could be the players have poor tactics, bad luck or maybe the DM is really out to get one of them.
copper_wyrmling 09-10-07, 10:04 AM	Eh. I'd rather see a level 8 caster with proper adjustments for situational advantage and terrain advantages taken into account. And templates are a pet peeve of mine. I've seen far too many fiendish or dire or other templated enemies for any "nerfing" to be justifiable. Also, if you add abilities that cover one weakness of an enemy via a template, doesn't that make the "template weakened" NPC worse? From what I saw, adding Vampire to a level 7 wizard made him a credible melee threat (what with that slam attack) and provided a number of defensive abilities that made up for wizard weaknesses. Oh, yeah, and changing those 7d4HP (21 HP) to 7d12HP (49) while adding fast healing 5 is surely an added weakness. Why, it can't help him at all. Not one bit. I would rather have heard "he's Tiefling" or "he's Fiendish", cause vampire ain't fun, not when it doubles the HP you'd have to deal with AND includes fast healing. So kiddies, remember your silver weapons, bring oils of bless weapon, always have a potion or scroll of fly. Among other things. Well, to be fair, comparing creatures of equal EL, it's not 7d4 -> 7d12, it's 9d4+9*(Con modifier) -> 7d12. My gnome sorceress at L9 will have 55 HP if she hasn't bought a Con-booster by then, 64 HP if she has - if she had 7d12 HD and was using PC generation rules, she'd have 12+6*7 = 54. (I'm not sure precisely what the rules for NPC hit-point generation are in LG at the moment, so I'm comparing using PC numbers.) I do agree with your last sentiment though :) EDIT: Also, getting back to the original topic of the thread - I played one game like this, and what I took away from the final encounter was "If you can catch a L15 wizard immediately after he's blown his Moment of Prescience and then his Contingency: Teleport in a tough fight (because you, thanks to deific assistance, knew exactly where and when he was going to show up), said wizard has a disfavor from an angry god that causes him to (once ever) automatically go last on initiative, and you manage to get him in a Silence field, dimensionally anchored and grappled by a Large monster before he can act, then he is, indeed, probably going to die." I don't see that as breaking immersion in the game, I see that as demonstrating (a) why arcanists generally like to travel in a party and (b) why angering the gods is not something you want to do on a regular basis.
Rerednaw 09-10-07, 10:59 AM	I've gotta say, I'd much rather fight a Vampire Wizard 7 than a Wizard 9 at APL 6. What a standard Wizard 9 has access to is just so much more superior than whatever a Vampire Wizard 7 can do. If anything, I think the RPGA tends to put in templates so they don't TPK parties on a regular basis where Wizards are involved. Look at the following spells a 20 Int run of the mill Wizard 9 can cast straight out of PHB:...Cloudkill - anyone playing up? Whoops - how many DC 20 Fort saves can you make? Anyone haplessly stuck in an Evard's while a DC 20 Cloudkill passes through for 3-8 rounds? ... Fly/Overland Flight - hey, why can't those 2 Fighters up front by themselves reach the Improved Invisible Flying Wizard who is throwing 12d6 Empowered Scorching Rays at them, while we're mostly stuck in this Evard's and behind this Force Wall. And hey, can anyone see them? Anyone? I can't see through this Cloudkill? Anyone at all? Cloudkill in 3.5 has a lot of issues, including table variation. However it is no longer the kill them all spell it once was. With a movement-inhibitor it is still quite nasty. Without anything to hold targets in place, most likely they only have to make a single save. A nasty one to be sure, but only one. I do agree that a 9th level caster is generally worse than a 7th level templated one.
_metz_ 09-10-07, 11:42 AM	I have little sympathy for unprepared parties. Being a fighter at level 6 WITHOUT a cold iron or silver backup weapon, and oils of bless weapon etc are not given any soft balling by me as a DM. (Unless the player is new to DnD) Vampire Wizard 7 is not scary at all. I have seen much worse. In Perrenland, vampires are stock standard, every adventurer in my area has a mirror, NOT to look around corners, but to present to a vampire if there is a problem! Wizard 9 is much worse. Oh, and Spell Turrets too... Give me a vampire any day!
the_redbeard 09-10-07, 01:20 PM	The second table I ran was APL 2. Every single PC on that table, including the arcanist, had at least a nonmasterwork silver and cold iron weapon (or silver + cold iron arrows). When we got to the swarm encounter, it turned out they also had acid and alchemist's fire. They thought the mod was an utter cakewalk. It's really sad when the APL 2 party could probably have done a better job with the APL 6 encounters than the APL 6 party managed, but it was a very good demonstration of (a) how easy it is to cover the basics, and (b) how fast the situation can go downhill without them. Then there are times that you do take reasonable precautions that weren't enough. My rogue/swashbuckler has a -1 will save, so I purchase and drink Protection from Evil potions quite regularly. We were about to encounter the bigbad in a mod last Saturday, so I got out my potion and drank it. Unfortunately, the bigbad wasn't evil. But it did have an attack that did 1d4 wisdom damage. Most of the party was in a coma by the time it was finally defeated. So, now what? I carry Protection from Chaos potions as well?
solbergb 09-10-07, 01:38 PM	Prot evil will still suppress dominate type abilities and fend off summoned things that aren't good aligned. That's really what the potion is for. It won't do anything against wisdom drain except maybe raise your touch AC a little (as would shield of faith).
Hariman 09-10-07, 10:46 PM	I have little sympathy for unprepared parties. Being a fighter at level 6 WITHOUT a cold iron or silver backup weapon, and oils of bless weapon etc are not given any soft balling by me as a DM. (Unless the player is new to DnD) Vampire Wizard 7 is not scary at all. I have seen much worse. In Perrenland, vampires are stock standard, every adventurer in my area has a mirror, NOT to look around corners, but to present to a vampire if there is a problem! Wizard 9 is much worse. Oh, and Spell Turrets too... Give me a vampire any day! I believe the fighter was pretty well equipped. He just failed that crucial will save. Spell Turrets? OUCH! I've encountered them twice, and they've been tough both times. There are ways to defeat them easily, but they're not always easy to do. But Spell Turrets are usually a matter of either making the disable device roll or beating on them till they break. (Adamantine weapons and melee powerhouses help. Also, making those saves helps too.) A vampire wizard can do many things a spell turret can't. And fast healing increases a vampire wizard's HP by 5 for each round he is up. So a fight that lasts ten rounds might mean 100+hp instead of that paltry 60+ of a regular wizard.
_metz_ 09-11-07, 12:37 AM	A vampire wizard can do many things a spell turret can't. And fast healing increases a vampire wizard's HP by 5 for each round he is up. So a fight that lasts ten rounds might mean 100+hp instead of that paltry 60+ of a regular wizard. Fights with wizards should not last that long. Even if they have the vampire template.
the_redbeard 09-11-07, 12:48 AM	Prot evil will still suppress dominate type abilities and fend off summoned things that aren't good aligned. That's really what the potion is for. It won't do anything against wisdom drain except maybe raise your touch AC a little (as would shield of faith). The DM for the mod explained that the ability was " entranced, which is not a game term per se. It's not dominate, charm, or defined as a spell effect with mind-affecting/compulsion. It's largely a made-up effect which has no affiliation with a game mechanic" and on that basis ruled that my protection from evil did not protect me from this effect. After being "entranced" and helpless, I was hit by a melee touch attack (or was it auto-success, don't recall). The "thing" in question was on the prime material but had come through a rift and was a native to the far realms. Thus, it was not a "summoned" creature and could touch attack me before I'd made an attack (attacks break the touch protection). Despite the DM's explanation, I am a bit annoyed. I bought that measly 50 gp potion to be prepared for such effects (to be more on topic). Maybe I'm expecting too much for a 50gp potion! No harm no foul, as we did survive (close to a TPK, but not quite and the wisdom damage healed). I'm also still new to LG so perhaps playing this close to the letter is normal.
solbergb 09-11-07, 12:41 PM	The prot evil protection is pretty specific. It has to be something like a dominate, something that gives ongoing control. Fascinate effects, hold person, stuff like that which is "fire and forget" it only gives the resistance save bonus to, and only if the enemy is evil. And yeah, if the enemy isn't summoned, it doesn't protect at all. (summoned monsters aren't "real" - they don't leave bodies, loot, can be dispelled, etc)
Vamroc 09-11-07, 04:13 PM	Fights with wizards should not last that long. Even if they have the vampire template. The whole point was the way the fight is set up. He just sits in this room invisible and waits till the PC's open the door. Then whammo every member of the party gets hit with Evards and you bettter roll high and the DM rolls low. Because its really the only way to escape. Unless you have the travel Domain or a Cape of The Montebank it's almost pointless even trying. What 4th level player can make 32 grapple check answer none. For that matter even on a 20 the best one can hope for is a tanked out 29. If the player had improved grapple then he would need a nat 20. The odds of having a fighter with +5 strength and improved grapple rolling a nat 20 in your party is very slim. Then it would get to make another grapple check the next round. I'm sorry DM rolls an Eighteen giving it a 33 grapple now take your beating like a good little Orc
solbergb 09-11-07, 05:43 PM	Ok, here goes. A L7 evards is grapple check +15. (to get a 32, he has to roll a "17") Typical grapple checks for level 6 characters. Raging Barbarian (Kruskin) with 17 starting strength, str bump at 4 and gaunts ogre power: +13 Typical rogue with 15 starting dex + bump or 16 dex and maxed escape artist: +12 Typical monk or grapplefighter, 15+str bump or 16 starting strength +11 Typical sword/board fighter or archer (Tordek) with 15 starting str, str bump at 4 or 16 starting str, no help from equipment +9 These guys have a decent chance to resist (except rogue, small chance), and with two grapple attempts each round to break out will likely only be held for 1-2 rounds even if they fail. (+9 gives roughly a 30% chance of winning the opposed check...given two rolls that's a coin toss on winning it) They're probably better off than if the bad guy lead with a glitterdust and a lot better off than if he lead with confusion. Primary casters are going to have more problems. Arcanists have a lot of NONC spells and MIC equipment that help in this situation, but the only useful core spell is dim door. Grease only helps if they aren't in the area (hanging back might help in a door situation) or they have a wand ready, Enlarge similar. Enlarging fighters could also help them. See invisible though, could have prevented suprise entirely, at least for the arcanist, allowing possible disruption of the spell. Divine casters again have main remedies being travel domain and free movement (again, L7 at earliest). Some casters can contribute without casting spells (wands in hand, bardsongs, some divine feats, turn undead). Divine casters also have handy spells like detect undead or even detect evil which may have revealed the vampire before you opened the door. Versus non-undead, they've got command ("approach") and blindness both of which can contribute against the enemy caster even when grappled. The easiest remedy is to not be in fireball formation. That leaves some outside the evards, able to help those inside or take the fight to the enemey The thing is....evards is allowed by the CR system as early as level 4 although like Hezrou +blasphemy at APL8 it is rarely used at those levels because the damage isn't just annoying, it can kill. The evards you should be facing at level 6 is +17 not +15. You're being cut a break having it only at +15. I'm sorry...I just can't get worked up about a caster who drops a CL7 evards on a L6 party. Coping with grapplespells and grapplemonsters is part of playing at APL's higher than 2. I also can't get too worked up about the party getting into trouble because the DM has hot dice. If he rolls 18's on the power attack full falchion giant you're gonna have dead people too. (veteran of quite a few evards in the level 6-8 range over the past few years on both sides of table. Party won every time with no deaths, but I don't dispute that it is a top tier spell in that range that does a lot to mitigate the party "action advantage" when faced with numerically inferior but more powerful arcanists)
Mattastrophic 09-11-07, 06:35 PM	It's interesting how arcane-caster encounters seem to always generate complaints. I'll say it again... don't whine about it, deal with it. -Matt
Morgen 09-11-07, 08:34 PM	Well if it's not a construct or an elemental it's just not broken enough. Louse stupid miss CRed elementals.... Honestly though, where have you been? The wacky stuff has been around for years and years. -.-;
Vamroc 09-11-07, 10:38 PM	Typical grapple checks for level 6 characters. Raging Barbarian (Kruskin) with 17 starting strength, str bump at 4 and gaunts ogre power: +13 Typical rogue with 15 starting dex + bump or 16 dex and maxed escape artist: +12 Typical monk or grapple fighter, 15+str bump or 16 starting strength +11 Typical sword/board fighter or archer (Tordek) with 15 starting str, str bump at 4 or 16 starting str, no help from equipment +9 This is great if your all sixth I was talking about those people forced to play up. Our party consisted of two sixes, a five, 2 fours, a two, and two level 1s. A Vampire has an level adjustment of +5 before you add class levels. This would make him a 12th level charactor that's twice the APL. A human ninth level Wizard is a worthy challenge and level appropriate. Yes he has more powerful spells but no DR 10 Magic and Silver ect... in the end He just a guy reading from a "phone book". On most occasions you have maybe one or two players who "Macguyver" their charactors. A player never knows what their gonna fight at the end of a mod. Adventurers should have Silver Sheen, or Magic Weapon prepared. But most take the view if the mod doesn't travel in that direction I'm not gonna bother. The Vampire was a summoner starting with Evards then Summon Undead IV. We managed to stop him from casting mostly because he failed his concentration check. If he managed to cast Summon Undead IV and bring a Zombie Wyrven to the fight no doubt it's a TPK. Raging Barbarian (Kruskin) with 17 starting strength, str bump at 4 and gaunts ogre power: +13 Typical rogue with 15 starting dex + bump or 16 dex and maxed escape artist: +12 Typical monk or grapple fighter, 15+str bump or 16 starting strength +11 Typical sword/board fighter or archer (Tordek) with 15 starting str, str bump at 4 or 16 starting str, no help from equipment +9 Also even if you've mapped out every level of a charactor to fight Undead and Wizards. The instant the barbarian walks in to the room and has to make a will save or be dominated. Make sure the rouge has a +1 Sponge to clean up the blood stains left by the decapitated Cleric
Hariman 09-11-07, 11:19 PM	Fights with wizards should not last that long. Even if they have the vampire template. But when the BBEG leads with evards in an enclosed space, then flies around with Improved Invisibility, and half the party is caught and your best fighter is a melee build, it's not that easy. Not to mention my string of bad luck with missing TOUCH attacks for orbs and Rays. And glitterdust. That REALLY pooched us. Because too many of us failed the glitterdust save. But glitterdust has pooched more than one party that I've been in. So remember your Remove Blindness potions. Just don't bring a remove blindness scroll, even if you can cast it.
_metz_ 09-12-07, 12:27 AM	well sounds like you had bad dice rolls. I don't think the encounter was the wizard's fault. As for the Evards, IT HAPPENS :) Welcome to the world of APL 6 and Above.
Mattastrophic 09-12-07, 01:39 PM	Our party consisted of two sixes, a five, 2 fours, a two, and two level 1s. Hmm... an eight-player table... and 29/8 = 3.625, I guess you could do +1 = 4.625, rounds to APL 5... and it's somehow the author's fault that you had trouble at APL 6... Yeah, you can stop complaining now. -Matt
_metz_ 09-12-07, 01:55 PM	Hmm... an eight-player table... and 29/8 = 3.625, I guess you could do +1 = 4.625, rounds to APL 5... and it's somehow the author's fault that you had trouble at APL 6... Yeah, you can stop complaining now. -Matt Seconded. No complaining if you were playing up dangerously. EVER.
awroe 09-12-07, 02:54 PM	Spell Turrets? OUCH! I've encountered them twice, and they've been tough both times. There are ways to defeat them easily, but they're not always easy to do. But Spell Turrets are usually a matter of either making the disable device roll or beating on them till they break. (Adamantine weapons and melee powerhouses help. Also, making those saves helps too.) They can be quite nasty, but there are some straight-forward ways of bypassing them - a smoke stick will mean they can't see you, as will a blanket place over them by a friendly unseen servant. Then you can just walk past. A even better strategy might be to carve the turret out of the wall and walk along pointing it ahead of you :)
solbergb 09-12-07, 03:41 PM	Also even if you've mapped out every level of a charactor to fight Undead and Wizards. The instant the barbarian walks in to the room and has to make a will save or be dominated. Make sure the rouge has a +1 Sponge to clean up the blood stains left by the decapitated Cleric No he doesn't. Because round 1 the vampire is casting evards. It isn't a free action or automatic, the vampire has to use a std action to dominate. He can dominate or cast evards or level drain. His main constriant is actions, where he's outnumbered 4-6 to one. All the barbarian has to do to prevent being dominated in round 2 while struggling with the evards is close his eyes. Or if he's free, drink his potion of prot evil. Or just rage and make the will save.
solbergb 09-12-07, 03:45 PM	This is great if your all sixth I was talking about those people forced to play up. Our party consisted of two sixes, a five, 2 fours, a two, and two level 1s. Dude...this is why you should NOT bring level 2s and 1s to an APL6 party. One fireball would have just killed them all dead. Evards+glitterdust was being merciful in comparison. One consequence of playing up is subpar saves. A party of five level 6s (or even 5-7s) would have both had more free of the grapple and fewer blind. Plus wouldn't be in rescue mode on the babies getting the life squeezed out of them....nobody would be in immediate danger of death just from the evards. Your real party was two 6s, a 5 and two 4s. That's an APL5 party, which will get its rear handed to it at APL6 quite often. That is why you're allowed to play down. Don't play at APL6 when you can play APL4 or alternately don't complain when it goes badly, because those EL+3 encounters are now EL+4 and have a 50/50 chance of TPKing a 4 person party. Also with eight people you should have played two tables, APL4 and APL2. (two 6s a 5 and a 2 for the APL4, both 4s and both 1s at APL2) If the mod only supports APL6, you should have waited to play it or accepted the consequences of being over-eager. Not to mention that your table as played was actually illegal.
Hariman 09-13-07, 12:01 AM	Don't play at APL6 when you can play APL4 or alternately don't complain when it goes badly, because those EL+3 encounters are now EL+4 and have a 50/50 chance of TPKing a 4 person party. I agree with the rest of your post, but I just have to say: Man oh man, I wish I could convince some of the players in my area that playing down is a GOOD idea! I'm getting sick and tired of having a choice between lower and higher APLs and having the other players call me chicken for wanting to play the lower APL. Especially when they know damn well that my character is a multiclass Horizon build that won't hit his stride until around level 8 or 9. The table of the Vampire Wizard mod actually had a decent party, we were just short on healing and on arcane power. Oh, and for that vampire wizard, he comes right after another encounter (situational +1 CR for coming after another encounter.), and has a terrain advantage for another +1 to CR. And he's set at APL +3. Is it any wonder there are complaints about bad CR ratings around when terrain and circumstances are missed pretty often?
_metz_ 09-13-07, 12:22 AM	The table of the Vampire Wizard mod actually had a decent party, we were just short on healing and on arcane power. Thats not a decent party. Thats missing more than 50% of what you need for a balanced party. (Rogues are less required than the other 3 in LG) Thats not a decent party at all. Again, not the mod/authors fault.
Hariman 09-13-07, 03:31 AM	Thats not a decent party. Thats missing more than 50% of what you need for a balanced party. (Rogues are less required than the other 3 in LG) Thats not a decent party at all. Again, not the mod/authors fault. Semi-Decent. No in combat healing but at least two characters who could use CLW wands. It's better than some parties I've been in. Glitterdust really did us in. Let me correct myself. We did have some arcane power. Just not the arcane power that we needed. And the author did the typical "stack two encounters in a row at the end of a module" BS that seems designed to eat the party's resources as soften them up for the climactic APL +3 encounter.
Mommy was an Orc 09-13-07, 09:22 AM	Semi-Decent. No in combat healing but at least two characters who could use CLW wands. It's better than some parties I've been in. Glitterdust really did us in. Let me correct myself. We did have some arcane power. Just not the arcane power that we needed. And the author did the typical "stack two encounters in a row at the end of a module" BS that seems designed to eat the party's resources as soften them up for the climactic APL +3 encounter. Okay, let's get this straight: No divine caster No pure arcane caster No characters above APL At least half the party playing up 2 People not having silver weaponry I'm just going to guess here, but I bet you didn't have a BDF with +6 BAB. That's not a semi-decent party. That's a party asking for exactly what happened to it. If your party was semi-decent, you wouldn't have had so many issues with resources. Why don't you guys list the actual builds at the table so we're not guessing at what you did and did not have.
Mattastrophic 09-13-07, 11:22 AM	And the author did the typical "stack two encounters in a row at the end of a module" BS that seems designed to eat the party's resources as soften them up for the climactic APL +3 encounter. And now you're calling multiple encounters a day BS? After playing up without a cleric or a wizard, and probably without a fully-functional anything, either? Seriously, it's not the author's fault here! If anything, I applaud the author for teaching your group a much-needed lesson! It's merely up to you to treat it as one. -See earlier post about Matt's pet peeves.
solbergb 09-13-07, 12:54 PM	Ok, first of all there was no "favorable terrain". It was a wizard in a room behind a door. that is NOT a +1. Favorable terrain also is not a creature using its abilities in its native terrain (like a druid in a forest or a monster with icewalking on ice). Favorable terrain is something like four orcs in a tower with boiling oil attacking through murder holes as the party must go underneath vs four orcs standing in front of you. It has to be as significant as adding two more orcs, or in the case of a vampire wizard7, adding a second nonvampire level 7 char, or a second vampire with class levels adding to 5. A shut door doesn't pass this bar. Second of all, it was not one encounter immediately after another. The door was shut. you were free to heal, buff, do anything you want given the vampire's tactics (be invis, wait for door to open, blast party). If the vampire opened the door and blasted the party when he heard the last couple enemies of prior fight go "thud' that would be one encounter stacked on another. So it was a straight EL+3. The problem was the party and the players, not the author.
copper_wyrmling 09-13-07, 01:48 PM	Favorable terrain also is not a creature using its abilities in its native terrain (like a druid in a forest or a monster with icewalking on ice). Favorable terrain is something like four orcs in a tower with boiling oil attacking through murder holes as the party must go underneath vs four orcs standing in front of you. It has to be as significant as adding two more orcs, or in the case of a vampire wizard7, adding a second nonvampire level 7 char, or a second vampire with class levels adding to 5. A shut door doesn't pass this bar. Hmmm... what do you think about spring-attacking incorporeals with blindsight in a blizzard (in the sense of "can't see the squares next to you") on slippery ice? I've seen this in play, and it was pretty nasty. I tend to think it justifies an EL increase, even though it is just terrain where the creature's natural abilities give it an advantage. I guess the distinction is that the CR for certain monsters is based on the assumption that you'll face them in their favored terrain, whereas generic incorporeals are not CR'ed on the assumption that they'll be fought in difficult terrain where nobody can detect them.
solbergb 09-13-07, 07:29 PM	that's the difference yes. Incorporeals assume the'll have a solid object they can move into and will usually get surprise barring funky detects or odd things like all the animals suddenly panicing. The CR assumes though, that the party can strike back with readied actions, or in case of those without spring attack, every other round and there usually isn't an assumption of favorable terrain where their perfect flight is an unusually good advantage. OTOH , if some template made something incorporeal (ghost?) which normally exploits blindsight as part of its CR (Grimlock, as an example) then the template adjustment is supposed to take care of it. Likewise a ghost druid who casts wall of thorns so his spectre minions have a big advantage should be handled by normal CR mechanics. Teamwork between bad guys is assumed in the adjustment for adding more critters to the fight, most of the time. Unusual synergies are supposed to be eyeballed, and is the weakness of the CR system. I remember incorporeal will-o-wisps in one mod that were unusually hard because incorporeal removes most defensive weaknesses of will-o-wisps (which are defense-heavy bad guys anyway)
_metz_ 09-13-07, 10:14 PM	Unusual synergies are supposed to be eyeballed, and is the weakness of the CR system. I remember incorporeal will-o-wisps in one mod that were unusually hard because incorporeal removes most defensive weaknesses of will-o-wisps (which are defense-heavy bad guys anyway) Yeah, practically only thing that could get the buggers was a magic missile, (Or hitting it ofc) I remember that mod, expired Iuz. (Gotta love Iuz mods)
copper_wyrmling 09-13-07, 10:27 PM	Yeah, practically only thing that could get the buggers was a magic missile, (Or hitting it ofc) I remember that mod, expired Iuz. (Gotta love Iuz mods) Are you sure? The incorporeal will o' the wisps I met were in a Core, Frozen Spire. I've played every expired Iuz back to Year 3, and I've met ordinary will o' the wisps in Iuz games, but not incorporeal ones that I remember (although they might have been templated at higher APLs I guess) - even for the ordinary ones, magic missile is the best way to damage them.
_metz_ 09-13-07, 11:44 PM	Are you sure? The incorporeal will o' the wisps I met were in a Core, Frozen Spire. I've played every expired Iuz back to Year 3, and I've met ordinary will o' the wisps in Iuz games, but not incorporeal ones that I remember (although they might have been templated at higher APLs I guess) - even for the ordinary ones, magic missile is the best way to damage them. I could be wrong, it was a long time ago, I just remember lots of Undead, so maybe thats why I am automatically assuming Iuz...
clannagh 09-14-07, 12:38 AM	Frozen Spire rings a bell, year 4 Core I believe, one of Creightons. It lso featured some Caryatid Columns just to make things interesting.
_metz_ 09-14-07, 12:57 AM	Frozen Spire rings a bell, year 4 Core I believe, one of Creightons. It lso featured some Caryatid Columns just to make things interesting. Ah yeah, thats the one. Caryatid Columns in LG is quite frankly being an absolute **** of an author. I know most of this post has been telling people they shouldn't criticise Authors, but those things are ridiculous. There, I've said it. I am sticking to it as well. They don't belong in LG.
Hariman 09-14-07, 01:08 AM	And now you're calling multiple encounters a day BS? After playing up without a cleric or a wizard, and probably without a fully-functional anything, either? Seriously, it's not the author's fault here! If anything, I applaud the author for teaching your group a much-needed lesson! It's merely up to you to treat it as one. -See earlier post about Matt's pet peeves. Actually, we were mostly at APL or above. Only the wizard was playing up. Evard's and the Fireball got him. And that was before the swarms arrived. There was no door in the hallway, only an invisible vampire wizard waiting to surprise round evard's the hallway. Followed by a fireball. Advantage = Writer/Monster. Circumstance and Terrain Advantages to CR are things that are supposed to be eyeballed. And too many writers and editors don't take them into account. I can't tell anyone about the mod yet. But I can say that the most experienced players in the area agree that the mod sucks. There isn't just a vampire wizard at the end of the hallway, there's also an undead troll. You ONLY have time for healing after the prior encounter. Better parties than mine got pounded hard by that encounter. Heck, the mod has it's own nickname which plays on it's title because of how lethal that encounter is. (At least in this area.) Much of the point I'm trying to make is: There are some mods that are so bad that they invite TPKs. So they'll TPK even average parties with bad luck and have a better chance of TPKing sub-optimal parties. I'll tell you all about it once it's no longer an active mod. But for now, just trust me on this. The author wrote a brutal encounter into a bad mod, and that contributed as much to the deaths as our own mistakes. If not more.
_metz_ 09-14-07, 04:36 AM	PCs can cast self buff spells like Invisibility. So can NPCs. Nothing you have said thus far has convinced any of us that it was as bad as it could of been. An invisible level 9 Wizard would have been WORSE. Please stop complaining about the writer, email your triad or the mod writer if necessary, as NONE of us have seen why its a bad encounter thus far. If you still feel it is, contact the appropriate people. We'll wait till he mod has expired if necessary, but I am tired of hearing how a frankly NOT dangerous encounter was overpowered. Come complain to me if you were fighting 3 Ghast mobs stacked on top of each other or something. Thats not a broken encounter, you guys just aint used to APL 6. 1. You had a non balanced party. When half the people who post regurlarly in the character development boards tell you your party was unbalanced and too weak for the APL, listen. 2. The Wizard had a Template which made him LESS Dangerous 3. Your 'difficult terrain' was a Hallway 4. You had time to heal/Buff, so in fact you are criticizing having more than one encounter a day, which is rubbish and I won't even acknowledge it 5. Your essential arguement was he was invisible and cast Evards, which is a standard PHB ability which is catered to in the Wizard's CR. There is a BIG jump from APL 4, and only through these situations will you learn how to play. This is a reason Plot ending arcs start at 6. Its when stuff starts actually happening. Don't claim its the mod writer's fault. It angers me, especially if its unfounded. Too many people are doing that these days, when dealing with pretty standard stuff like invisibility, flying critters, etc.
Mommy was an Orc 09-14-07, 10:12 AM	Man oh man, I wish I could convince some of the players in my area that playing down is a GOOD idea! Actually, we were mostly at APL or above. Only the wizard was playing up. Evard's and the Fireball got him. And that was before the swarms arrived. Really, you need to tell us what the general builds at the table(s) were. At the moment, we're all more than convinced that you nerfed yourself. Change that Evard's to be harder to escape Change that 7d6 Fireball into a 13.5d6 Empowered Fireball That's the results of having a 9th level wizard vs a 7th level vampire. Did anyone miss their save against the fireball? With the 9th level Wizard, it isn't only the Wizard playing up who is dying on the 2nd round if they miss their save. But you're also ignoring reality here - in an APL 6 party, you could have a Wizard 7 in your party casting Evard's at your opponent - the Vampire Wizard isn't doing anything to you that you couldn't be doing back to him(until he decided to start going for slams)
solbergb 09-14-07, 01:34 PM	If there was no door, then the party could have detected the vampire. See invisible. Maybe detect spells. Arcane sight. Blindsense or blindsight from familiar or listening lorecall. The party also could likely have spread out and not been in "fireball formation". Also if there was no door, you were very fortunate the vampire didn't choose to do all his nastiness while you were wrapping up the other fight (which would probably violate CR guidelines but is clearly a missed opportunity from an incharacter "what the vampire should have done to win" standpoint)
Timlagor 09-14-07, 04:19 PM	The wisps you are thinking of were indeed in Frozen Spire and they were Dreamstealers -a nice template that I believe was invented by the Onnwal Triad. (fortunately we haven't had to fight that many of them ...yet)
solbergb 09-14-07, 04:25 PM	to be fair, one reason dreamstealer on will-o-wisp seemed especially "synergistic" to me was that my character deals with those stupid things by grappling them. (meaning you can do a bunch of attacks and only one has to hit to get control of the monster). Obviously not an option for an incorporeal. I'm not sure they were actually much worse than a normal will-o-wisp for most characters, although the fact that incorporeals don't make noise, don't have scent, etc does mean that if they go invisible your options for locating them are sharply reduced.
copper_wyrmling 09-14-07, 05:26 PM	Obviously not an option for an incorporeal. I'm not sure they were actually much worse than a normal will-o-wisp for most characters, although the fact that incorporeals don't make noise, don't have scent, etc does mean that if they go invisible your options for locating them are sharply reduced. The thing that made them worse than a normal wisp for our table was the increased offensive options that the dreamstealer template gave - our method for dealing with ordinary wisps would've been "keep the sorcerer alive while she magic missiles them to death", which isn't nearly so easy when they're doing Wisdom drain instead of just damage (especially when your sorc starts with Wis 8 - Az ended that encounter on Wis 1, and would've been out earlier if not for some very lucky rolls).
Hariman 09-14-07, 10:56 PM	Really, you need to tell us what the general builds at the table(s) were. At the moment, we're all more than convinced that you nerfed yourself. Change that Evard's to be harder to escape Change that 7d6 Fireball into a 13.5d6 Empowered Fireball That's the results of having a 9th level wizard vs a 7th level vampire. Did anyone miss their save against the fireball? With the 9th level Wizard, it isn't only the Wizard playing up who is dying on the 2nd round if they miss their save. But you're also ignoring reality here - in an APL 6 party, you could have a Wizard 7 in your party casting Evard's at your opponent - the Vampire Wizard isn't doing anything to you that you couldn't be doing back to him(until he decided to start going for slams) I've admitted that the party wasn't perfect, and that there were mistakes made. But Y'know what? I'm beating my head off a wall here. I can't say what I need to say to have any chance of convincing you, because it's an active mod. And it's not just the final encounter that made me hate the mod in question. I'm only frustrating myself trying to convince you of something that you blame solely on the party without actually reading the mod. It's all I can do not to post something I'd regret out of frustration. You've only convinced me that you'll blame me and the party unless I post "Caryatid Columns, multiple mobs, Dominion over Bright Sands." or some other broken BS. I'm unsubscribing from this thread, and if any of you encounter a Vampire Wizard that kicks your butt at APL 6 (And APL 6 is the killer APL for the mod.) PM me, and then we'll talk. Just remember to ask the DM what his instructions are for much of the mod. (or just read the mod.)
bitznarf 09-15-07, 12:40 AM	Then I guess anything 'wrong' about the encounter/mod would contain spoilers, as nothing I've seen in this thread look particularily 'wrong' or 'broken' about that encounter. It looks like an EL9 to me.
Mommy was an Orc 09-15-07, 10:23 AM	I've admitted that the party wasn't perfect, and that there were mistakes made. But Y'know what? I'm beating my head off a wall here. I can't say what I need to say to have any chance of convincing you, because it's an active mod. And it's not just the final encounter that made me hate the mod in question. Take the fireball damage roll and multiply it by 1.65 and lower the DC by one. Assume anyone imprisoned by the Evard's is still stuck and anyone who got out has roughly a 25% chance of still being stuck(that's being generous, but...) - do the same damage that Evard's did to each party member. What condition is every member of your party in? That's what happens when you swap out the Vampire Wizard 7 for a Wizard 9. The continuing problem with your description is that you've essentially said: We got Evard'd We couldn't act We got Fireballed We still really couldn't act We got Glitterdusted Then we could act and after a very tough fight had several deaths. None of which until the very last line is really influenced by him being a vampire.
Mattastrophic 09-15-07, 12:23 PM	You've only convinced me that you'll blame me and the party unless I post "Caryatid Columns, multiple mobs, Dominion over Bright Sands." or some other broken BS. What's wrong with a Caryatid Column? Both times I've seen them, they went down like, heh, boxes of rocks. Their HP values are incredibly low, and they get so few attacks. Also, they have a very distinct appearance, so you know they're coming. Multiple mobs? Area-of-effect spells FTW. Mass Fly also tends to deal with them. Dominion? The encounters themselves aren't bad, the problem ends up being poor knowledge on the author's part. Hehehe, Creighton can't write worth a junk, that's what's going on there. Last time I played one of his, he stacked Headband of Intellect with Fox's Cunning. That's just inexcusable. See? There are lessons here to be learned, not complaints to be made. In the third case, the lesson is "Edit Creighton's encounters to make them legal." -Matt
copper_wyrmling 09-15-07, 01:00 PM	What's wrong with a Caryatid Column? Both times I've seen them, they went down like, heh, boxes of rocks. Their HP values are incredibly low, and they get so few attacks. Also, they have a very distinct appearance, so you know they're coming. Well... not the first time the PCs encounter them, generally, unless someone has a good Knowledge check. But yeah, I've never found them especially problematic: the weapon-breaking effect is frustrating, but it does work off a Fort save iirc (which tends to be high for frontliners), and now that magic weapons can be repaired in LG it's not nearly as big a deal as it used to be. Multiple mobs? Area-of-effect spells FTW. Mass Fly also tends to deal with them. As has been pointed out by others, area-effect spells don't always work very well, as while they do extra damage, mob saves are based off their HD and tend to be pretty high (especially mobs of outsiders or other creatures with all favored saves - at 30 HD, all saves start at +17 before stat modifiers). There are also such things as flying mobs (I've met some). The problems with mobs are typically: (a) The save DC of special attacks is based on HD and becomes ridiculously high: see the ghoul/ghast mobs with DC 26 save-or-be-paralyzed (no attack roll required) at APL 6 for an example. (b) GMs, even good GMs, often don't know the rules for them very well, because (1) the mob rules are confusing, and (2) authors seem to frequently fail to include the full mob rules in the module. This means PCs get an inflated idea of their defences, because some of the things that SHOULD work well against them get disallowed. Dominion? The encounters themselves aren't bad, the problem ends up being poor knowledge on the author's part. Hehehe, Creighton can't write worth a junk, that's what's going on there. Last time I played one of his, he stacked Headband of Intellect with Fox's Cunning. That's just inexcusable. Can't comment, haven't played Dominion - but from what people have said on public lists, one of the encounters has the wrong CR listed at APL 6, and the creature's actual CR (before terrain or circumstance modifiers) is higher than would normally be allowed at that APL.
Timlagor 09-15-07, 07:48 PM	That encounter in Dominion: - has the correct CR listed - has the EL listed at CR-1 (for all APLs iirc) even though: - happens in circumstances that significantly penalise the PC without affecting the enemy (except beneficially). ...and the module really has nothing to recommend it anyway. [there's one really cool thing in it but the chances are that only the GM will ever know about it] [I think I've played Hariman's module and 'whomped' that fight utterly but at higher APL ..and it might have been a different module anyway.]
Madfox11 09-17-07, 02:00 AM	Dominion? The encounters themselves aren't bad, the problem ends up being poor knowledge on the author's part. Hehehe, Creighton can't write worth a junk, that's what's going on there. Last time I played one of his, he stacked Headband of Intellect with Fox's Cunning. That's just inexcusable. See? There are lessons here to be learned, not complaints to be made. In the third case, the lesson is "Edit Creighton's encounters to make them legal." I find this a rather simplistic view on things. I know that some of the biggest mistakes in Core adventures are not the result of the Core team's editing skills. It is also really unfair to Creighton. Editing and writing adventures takes a lot of time and energy, and by the time you do get at the final stages you tend to overlook some very simple stuff that are hidden behind the big things. Virtually all adventures I have seen, do have minor errors in them, even those I have editted myself and which I would have sworn at the time where errorless. Besides, people rarely get killed over the small errors... (Note that in case of Dominion it is besides the point. The killer encounter is correctly designed by the book. Whether or not the PCs or monster has favorable circumstances depends highly on the DM and the PCs' actions. The real question is (a) whether the book is right in this particular case and (b) whether the authors should have made it this difficult. Commenting on the first probably contains too many spoilers and it is not my position to comment on (b).)
Timlagor 09-17-07, 02:48 AM	Err...? You must be looking at the wrong encounter because even ignoring the Environment altogether gives you an EL 1 higher than listed (at all APLs I believe: check the CRs which are "correctly designed by the book"). No reason is given for reducing the EL and all the factors (several of them) favour the 'monsters team'. [..and then there's the synergies] There is no way that the PCs could gain actually favourable circumstances for that encounter. -they might expend a lot of resources on buffs etc but that's a whole different category.
solbergb 09-17-07, 12:53 PM	I've admitted that the party wasn't perfect, and that there were mistakes made. But Y'know what? I'm beating my head off a wall here. I can't say what I need to say to have any chance of convincing you, because it's an active mod. And it's not just the final encounter that made me hate the mod in question. There may be other stuff that made you hate the mod, but the fact remains that an invisible vampire casting evards down a corridor just isn't broken. That's why you are beating your head against the wall. You are saying something is broken that in our experience isn't broken, it's a normal encounter that is sometimes dangerous for certain party mixes (eg, much more danagerous for a mostly size small party) I have seen probably a dozen encounters on both sides of the table with all or most of the party getting stuck in evards as first action by the bad guy in APL6-8. By far the more dangerous encounters were with single-classed EL+3 casters, next most danagerous was single classed EL+1 caster with single-classed EL+1 rogue who could take advantage of the loss of dex bonus to AC. A templated EL+1 caster doesn't rate.
Hariman 09-18-07, 10:50 PM	There may be other stuff that made you hate the mod, but the fact remains that an invisible vampire casting evards down a corridor just isn't broken. A templated EL+1 caster doesn't rate. Grrrrrr. I know I said I wasn't going to post here again... But don't you mean CR+2 level 7 vampire with accompanying large undead? (At apl 6, with buffing and a room which favored the vampire.) Because that's what the encounter was.
solbergb 09-18-07, 11:37 PM	nobody said anything about accompanying undead. The vampire with L7 caster is CR9 by himself. (the room and buffing don't change that....you can detect him invisible or hear him casting etc...if he can detect you and buff without you detecting him, it's figured into his CR by skill choicees and template abilities and class abilites). There is nothing wrong with that for a APL6 party if there are other monsters present and they're CR7+, it should bump the EL just from the formulas. If they aren't CR7+ people argue about that but I consider that kind of cheesy unless they are extremely weak (eg, 4 commoner human zombies in the vampire encounter). Cheesy on par with adding 1 warrior level to a L1 fighter to make it a CR1 monster with twice the hitpoints. Briefly, if the minions are strong enough to take meaningful actions/resources to defeat or are strong enough to hurt the party significantly then they should affect the CR. (level 1 wizards with fireball scrolls are not ignorable in a CR9 encounter. Level 1 wizards who are only casting magic missile out of their head probably are ignorable, unless there are enough of them to make their volley remove a big chunk of a level 6 PC's hitpoints) Likewise if "room favoring him" means "the party is trapped in an area smaller than the evards, while the vampire is in another room with a 1'x1' hole in the wall allowing him to cast spells without any chance of getting at him" then ok, sure. But I've not heard any indication that the situation was anything other than "wizard in an open-plan dungeon".
copper_wyrmling 09-18-07, 11:38 PM	...
Madfox11 09-19-07, 04:10 AM	Well, you could always argue Evard's black tentacles is too powerful as a 4th level, especially in crowded circumstances where the PCs have to stick in a small group. The one time I did put in that spell at APL 6 I deeply regretted it, and since than I just don't do it anymore. Even if the PCs are strong enough to deal with it, it just slows down the game too much. By the book it is possible, and there are much worse things out there.
Mattastrophic 09-19-07, 12:51 PM	But don't you mean CR+2 level 7 vampire with accompanying large undead? So now he had a buddy? If that's true, then I'd say good writing decision. Single-spellcaster encounters are super-easy and they tend to go down in the opening round; they need things to body-block for them. -Matt
Hariman 09-19-07, 11:30 PM	nobody said anything about accompanying undead. The vampire with L7 caster is CR9 by himself. (the room and buffing don't change that....you can detect him invisible or hear him casting etc...if he can detect you and buff without you detecting him, it's figured into his CR by skill choicees and template abilities and class abilites). There is nothing wrong with that for a APL6 party if there are other monsters present and they're CR7+, it should bump the EL just from the formulas. If they aren't CR7+ people argue about that but I consider that kind of cheesy unless they are extremely weak (eg, 4 commoner human zombies in the vampire encounter). Cheesy on par with adding 1 warrior level to a L1 fighter to make it a CR1 monster with twice the hitpoints. Briefly, if the minions are strong enough to take meaningful actions/resources to defeat or are strong enough to hurt the party significantly then they should affect the CR. (level 1 wizards with fireball scrolls are not ignorable in a CR9 encounter. Level 1 wizards who are only casting magic missile out of their head probably are ignorable, unless there are enough of them to make their volley remove a big chunk of a level 6 PC's hitpoints) Likewise if "room favoring him" means "the party is trapped in an area smaller than the evards, while the vampire is in another room with a 1'x1' hole in the wall allowing him to cast spells without any chance of getting at him" then ok, sure. But I've not heard any indication that the situation was anything other than "wizard in an open-plan dungeon". I believe the buddy was a troll skeleton. (Possibly advanced.) It did take a significant number of actions to eliminate. The room is NOT just an open dungeon. There's a 20 foot drop into the room and the only way down is via a ladder past the skeleton. Or jumping. Or flying.
KarmaInferno 09-20-07, 06:01 PM	I still don't see how this is a "killer" encounter. One invisible caster. The fact that he's a vampire actually makes him a WEAKER spellcaster than he could be. One possibly advanced troll skeleton. A 20 foot drop to get into the room. Still not seeing how this is anything but a fairly normal encounter. A party of level 4-6 characters should be up for a middling fight, but not a deadly one. The drop is nothing, barely 7 points of fall damage on average. The melee characters should have no problems with it, the casters/ranged folks should stay in the hallway and blast from there. Heck, even back at level six my cleric probably could have dusted one each round. Or possibly both in the starting round if he's lucky. Without leaving the hallway. He don't have to see an undead to turn it, he just needs line of effect. My warmage would have just started blasting away without leaving the hallway. The other party described was just underpowered and undergeared. There's no excuse for not having cold iron and silver weapons by APL 6. Even the level one and two characters could have been purchased them by the second or third AR. And they played UP to APL 6 with three characters below level three. The encounter did not screw you. In both cases, it was either poor planning or bad luck. -karma
Mommy was an Orc 09-20-07, 06:26 PM	The party described was just underpowered and undergeared. There's no excuse for not having cold iron and silver weapons by APL 6. Even the level one and two characters could have been purchased them by the second or third AR. And you played UP to APL 6 with three characters below level three. Just as a note, there appear to be 2 parties, both which had trouble. Vamroc's very unbalanced one and Hariman's roughly at APL party. They're not stating what builds were actually being played. Although the general lack of silver/cold iron weapons is a dead giveaway of inexperienced players running into a tactically adept monster.
KarmaInferno 09-20-07, 06:41 PM	Yeah, I edited my post after I noticed that. I will have to say that Hariman's party was more the victim of a series of bad rolls than a 'killer' encounter. That doesn't have anything to do with the encounter itself. I still stand by my assertion that the encounter, as described, is not an unreasonable one for the APL. Me, these days I ASSUME the bad guys will have crowd control abilities, and plan for it. -karma
copper_wyrmling 09-20-07, 08:03 PM	Heck, even back at level six my cleric probably could have dusted one each round. That's pretty anomalous: a L7 vampire has effective HD 11 for turning, so you would need to have Improved Turning to have a chance at all, and I've never seen a cleric who automatically turned HD = level+4 at L6. Most of the really good turn-boosting items are too expensive at that stage, unless you've gotten extremely lucky with access (e.g. a lyre of the restful soul when you play with a regular group that includes someone with good perform (string instruments)). If you have two greater turnings at that level, you've probably also invested a feat in Disciple of the Sun, and most likely Extra Turning. I agree the encounter doesn't sound that bad, but the fact that a L6 cleric with Extra Turning, Improved Turning and Disciple of the Sun can end it inside two rounds if they roll high (and the monsters don't have Improved Turn Resistance or a desecrate field or anything of that nature) doesn't really say very much about its lethality ;)
JamesMaissen 09-21-07, 12:05 AM	I still don't see how this is a "killer" encounter. One invisible caster. The fact that he's a vampire actually makes him a WEAKER spellcaster than he could be. One possibly advanced troll skeleton. A 20 foot drop to get into the room. I believe I've played this mod (and then later ran it). As it sounds very familiar. If it's the one I think of the Troll skeleton wasn't in the EL as it would have been summoned. (And quite possibly with the casting for that heard). There were some undead from a prior encounter, but I don't believe it was a Troll Skeleton. The only problem that I recall from the module is the possible problems with the prior encounter giving the Vampire a good 'terrain' kind of effect. I know I caused the group I ran through it to eventually run from him (he was tapped and his melee wasn't able to handle the dwarven clerics he was facing). But then again the party did some things poorly as well. It just felt like a reasonable encounter both to play and to run. If you screw up then you get smacked for it. (I played my warmage when I played.. and yeah I just blasted and kept blasting between commiserating with the poor small sized fighter/tank of ours that he wasn't going to be able to do much that combat). -James
ShinAkuma2 09-21-07, 03:05 AM	You know, it took me a while to realize it, but I actually ran this for a group of friends. I tried to go full-tilt to make it a hard encounter, and they had no problems...It was an average, on-APL party. Heck, they even had a Bard in the party that couldn't contribute since most of his spells were mind-affecting. It took time, to be sure, but they did end up getting around everything, and I don't think I even KO'd anyone. If your party by APL 6 is not prepared with things like Silence (1st lvl cleric spell!), Fly (on-APL Arcane spell, scrolls and potions are cheap!) , or even appropriate-material ranged weapons, then it is certainly not the mod's fault. As I ran it, and as I played it, it was an exciting and difficult, but not killer fight.
_metz_ 09-21-07, 03:45 AM	Silence is a 2nd level cleric spell.
bitznarf 09-21-07, 03:00 PM	Heck, they even had a Bard in the party that couldn't contribute since most of his spells were mind-affecting. A bard that can't contribute is a bard that is poorly played. So he couldn't use his spells. That just leaves... everything else. Like bard song.
ShinAkuma2 09-21-07, 10:53 PM	Silence is a 2nd level cleric spell. Whatever, the spell level isn't relevant when you're talking about APL 6. It's something you should have. A bard that can't contribute is a bard that is poorly played. So he couldn't use his spells. That just leaves... everything else. Like bard song. Ok, so that is one action...What does a bard without spells and already singing have? Uh...nothing! He was a backup archer.
_metz_ 09-21-07, 11:06 PM	Whatever, the spell level isn't relevant when you're talking about APL 6. It's something you should have. Agreed. Was just pointing that out.
JamesMaissen 09-22-07, 01:31 AM	Whatever, the spell level isn't relevant when you're talking about APL 6. It's something you should have. Ok, so that is one action...What does a bard without spells and already singing have? Uh...nothing! He was a backup archer. Umm.. shouldn't the bard be able to read an arcane scroll of silence? (Or is that not on the DMG random scroll list?) Bards should always be able to contribute. -James
Timlagor 09-22-07, 10:23 AM	Whatever, the spell level isn't relevant when you're talking about APL 6. It's something you should have. Ok, so that is one action...What does a bard without spells and already singing have? Uh...nothing! He was a backup archer. Not every table has a Cleric and it should not be assumed that they do. The Bard who is singing is already contributing. They should also have chosen their spells known better and/or bought a few scrolls/tanglefoot bags/alchamists fire/acid/holy water/... Every character should think about what they can do to make themselves useful in combat against any category of enemy they have a reasonable chance of encountering ...mostly if you've got 'DR', 'Golem', 'Incorporeal' and 'Swarm' covered you're going to be ok.
ShinAkuma2 09-22-07, 10:33 AM	Umm.. shouldn't the bard be able to read an arcane scroll of silence? (Or is that not on the DMG random scroll list?) Silencing a bad guy more than once doesn't really do anything. Not every table has a Cleric and it should not be assumed that they do. I'd say it's a bigger assumption to say that a table doesn't have a cleric. Most of the time, if there's no cleric, there's no party. The Bard who is singing is already contributing. They should also have chosen their spells known better and/or bought a few scrolls/tanglefoot bags/alchamists fire/acid/holy water/... Yeah, yeah, sure. You can chuck items all day long, it doesn't mean you're really accomplishing anything. Besides, he was, at best Bard3/Paladin1 or 2, so he had no real options for spell selection.
Mommy was an Orc 09-22-07, 10:43 AM	Ok, so that is one action...What does a bard without spells and already singing have? Uh...nothing! He was a backup archer. Yeah, yeah, sure. You can chuck items all day long, it doesn't mean you're really accomplishing anything. Besides, he was, at best Bard3/Paladin1 or 2, so he had no real options for spell selection. He's below APL, he's a mutt, and he's an archer 4 or 5 without bonus feats. This is the context that if he fires magical silver arrows at a vampire, it ought to help out. I think his reasons for not contributing after singing have very little to do with him being a bard...
copper_wyrmling 09-22-07, 11:19 AM	I'd say it's a bigger assumption to say that a table doesn't have a cleric. Most of the time, if there's no cleric, there's no party. Really, in your experience? That's odd - probably more than half the tables I've played on were cleric-less, once you discount the ones where I played my cleric. There's a reason all my PCs tend to invest early in consumable healing ;) Also, tossing tanglefoot bags is generally a reasonably effective use of an action at APL 6, especially if you're L4 playing up: vampire wizard ref saves are unlikely to be high, and even if they pass, they then have penalties to AC and attacks and a concentration check required to cast any spells.
Timlagor 09-22-07, 12:53 PM	I'd say it's a bigger assumption to say that a table doesn't have a cleric. Most of the time, if there's no cleric, there's no party. Well that's a nice false dichotomy. I neither made nor supported such an assumption. My position is that it is wrong to assume anythign about the number of clerics at an arbitrary table. I do dispute your assertion here nonetheless. I've played at plenty of tables without Clerics -if you're going to pick a single role, I find tables without arcanists to be more likely to fail in practice because people are always aware of the absence of the Cleric in a way that they don't seem to be for arcanists even though arcanists can completely transform combats.
Samwise 09-22-07, 01:59 PM	Yeah, yeah, sure. You can chuck items all day long, it doesn't mean you're really accomplishing anything. Besides, he was, at best Bard3/Paladin1 or 2, so he had no real options for spell selection. Tanglefoot Bag = -2 to hit and AC for 2-8 rounds. Follow it up with a flank and aid another, and that is +4/+6 to hit the bad guy and -2/-4 to be hit by the bad guy for up to 7 rounds. That can be critical against a creature with DR you can not bypass. Alchemist's Fire = 2d6 with no DR. If the bad guy is not merely entangled but pinned, that means everyone can step back and throw fire for several rounds without retaliation, particularly if the bad guy does not have a slashing weapon. You can accomplish a lot with consumables if you buy them and use them, particularly against something like a vampire.
clik_ml 09-22-07, 04:11 PM	Tanglefoot Bag = -2 to hit and AC for 2-8 rounds. Follow it up with a flank and aid another, and that is +4/+6 to hit the bad guy and -2/-4 to be hit by the bad guy for up to 7 rounds. That can be critical against a creature with DR you can not bypass. Minus the tanglefoot bag, that's what my bard often does when he is outclassed as he regularly plays up with my wife's barbarian who is of higher level. Against stuff that I didn't have a hope of harming from level 3 on (since I had to wait for 3rd level for Inspire Courage) I would pair up with the BDF and give +2 bardic music, flank, aid another for +6 attack/+2 damage (which often converted into +0 atk/+14 damage via power attack). Big bad monsters were too worried about the greatsword wielding barbarian to even bother my enabler during their short, short life spans. With Silence, Glitterdust and Grease as my other spells and being fairly melee capable myself, I pretty much never run out of good options for my bard/paladin. On a side note, most of my favorite tables that I play on actually have zero clerics. This is usually because there is at least one arcanist, often more than one that filled that gap. I miss having a good arcanist more than I miss having a cleric.
copper_wyrmling 09-22-07, 04:25 PM	On a side note, most of my favorite tables that I play on actually have zero clerics. This is usually because there is at least one arcanist, often more than one that filled that gap. I miss having a good arcanist more than I miss having a cleric. I think that's more true at the high levels, not so much at the mid levels. I'll happily play on all-arcane tables from about APL 10 onwards, but it's a bit scarier at 2-6 (8 seems in-between, depending mostly on whether the table is APL 7.5 or APL 9.4 or something in between). At APL 12+, I'm very reluctant to play on a table with zero arcane, unless the divine is something like a druid plus a cleric with Domain Spontaneity (Travel), but lacking arcane doesn't seem to cause many problems at APL 2-4, and at 6-10 the divine casters can often compensate if they realize they need to. Fortunately the issue has never come up, but I don't think I'd be willing to play APL 8+ with no spellcasters at all. The closest I've come was playing the climactic finale to a regional story arc at APL 4 with a zero-casting table, and that was also the closest thing to a TPK I've ever seen (healing was one CLW wand and several people with levels of ranger/paladin/etc - I was pretty annoyed at the rest of the table for refusing to buy CLW wands at the start of the mod, despite several of them having access).
Iswald 09-22-07, 11:48 PM	Silencing a bad guy more than once doesn't really do anything. It depends upon how you do it. Silence has a will save and most casters are going to make their saving throw. I silence areas. In many cases, the caster can move and then cast again, which requires another silence spell. I'd say it's a bigger assumption to say that a table doesn't have a cleric. Most of the time, if there's no cleric, there's no party. Up until this last year, I played at only a couple tables without clerics. Being the player of a cleric makes a difference. ;) More recently, having a druid or druid levels makes often makes my PC the healer when there hasn't been a cleric. Yeah, yeah, sure. You can chuck items all day long, it doesn't mean you're really accomplishing anything. Besides, he was, at best Bard3/Paladin1 or 2, so he had no real options for spell selection. Alchemicals are heavy, especially tanglefoot bags. Most arcane casters do have a good dex but, how many can throw into melee without taking -4 or -8 to their attack? How bad is it going to be when you miss?
Samwise 09-22-07, 11:53 PM	It depends upon how you do it. Silence has a will save and most casters are going to make their saving throw. I silence areas. In many cases, the caster can move and then cast again, which requires another silence spell. Yep. I have run one adventure where the PCs did just that. At one of them it was a bard doing it. He cast silence, the bad guy moved, he readied and cast it again, and then again. Fortunately, the bad guy was run down before the PCs ran out of silence spells, but it made the encounter significantly easier.
ShinAkuma2 09-23-07, 03:02 AM	*sigh* You're all nitpicking, and completely missing the point of my posts. All I wanted to share is that, based on my experience, the fight was not particularly tough. Whether or not throwing consumables is a valid course of action is irrelevant to this point. The bard did the best he could and with the small spell selection and poor attack rolls he had, he wasn't able to do much. All I wanted to illustrate was that a normal party, 5 or 6 people, had no major hang-ups with the fight, even with 1 person not being able to do all that much. Even the most twinked out killer in the game can't contribute if he rolls nothing but ones or gets KO'd in the first round, so every point you try to make is not really important considering the mechanics in place.
solbergb 09-24-07, 12:31 PM	Whatever, the spell level isn't relevant when you're talking about APL 6. It's something you should have. Ok, so that is one action...What does a bard without spells and already singing have? Uh...nothing! He was a backup archer. He has silence spell. For you know...shutting down undead spellcasters :) Unless of course somebody else beat him to it. In which case he could grease the vampire to make it stop sticking to the ceiling or be flatfooted if on the ground or glitterdust it to keep it from going invisible etc....these spells are available in open access scrolls if he doesn't happen to know them. He could even UMD scrolls of prot evil or magic weapon to help the party fighters do their thing.
solbergb 09-24-07, 12:34 PM	I'd say it's a bigger assumption to say that a table doesn't have a cleric. Most of the time, if there's no cleric, there's no party. I also have played in many successful parties that had no cleric, or even divine caster. In combat healing is very nice but there are other ways to protect the party that are usually available to parties unbalanced in ways other than divine casters. Between combat healing is, of course, essential and things like level drain and ability drain are the reason favors and LGCS rules exist for NPC clerics to cast spells other than raise dead (although they often aren't handy in a multi-encounter situation)
solbergb 09-24-07, 12:39 PM	[QUOTE=ShinAkuma2;13876929Even the most twinked out killer in the game can't contribute if he rolls nothing but ones or gets KO'd in the first round, so every point you try to make is not really important considering the mechanics in place.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Most really dangerous situations I've been in have been a combination of a moderately dangerous encounter combined with at least one bad character or party decision, backed by some ugly dice (usually on both sides of the table, GM rolling hot, players rolling cold) The same deadly encounter, with normal dice OR better player decisions would have been routine or even easy. Now some encounters just aren't dangerous for some party mixes...so even bad dice and decisions won't endanger a party in those. (as an example, that vampire encounter in a party that has a cleric capable of greater turning it routinely, or that encounter in a party who somehow had the ability to detect the vampire before the combat started, got the drop on it and shut it down quickly with readied silence and movement inhibiting, plus a plan for gaseous form. what is one party's TPK is another's walkover....four elder frost elementals in a party with mass fly and decent ranged attacks are facing an enemy helpless to counterattack after the first round of attacks. In a party without that kind of mobility or without battlefield control capable of dealing with 40' tall creatures with huge reach who are forced to slug it out are going to get mauled) You need a moderately dangerous encounter, enough that the party can't just muscle past all mistakes and bad luck.