Demons Summoning Demons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demons Summoning Demons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gwumph
05-29-07, 05:38 AM Well I just tried that new search, didn't turn up what i want.

I have read the MM I and it still didn't answer everything to my tables satisfaction.

When a Demon summons another Demon, they owe a debt to the Demon that came and have a percentage chance of no demon answering their call. OK

The summoned Demon stay for 1 hour. OK.

If the summoning is successful....

1. Does the summoning Demon have to make Concentration checks for damage taken between the successful summoning and the new demon appearing?

2. Does the summoned Demon disappear if the summoning demon is killed?

For number 1, I would say no, since it is more like a deal between 2 people, than a spellcaster summoning a dire weasal.

and for 2 I would say no since in the MM I pg. 315 it says summoned demons remain for 1 hour.

Thanks for you help guys

Cheers
Gwumph
Maesto
05-29-07, 05:44 AM From memory, the summon ability is described in the back of the monster manual, p315.

It's a spell-like ability, so it can be disrupted if you take damage while casting it. Also, it behaves like summon monster spells - the creature appears instantly and acts immediately.

There is some debate as to how long the summoning actually takes. Given that most spell like abilities take a standard action, and this one doesn't state that it takes longer, a number of people think it takes a standard action to attempt to summon, which is mitigated by the failure chance. The other half says that it's "much as though casting a summon monster spell", so it takes one full round to cast (full round action or two standard actions), and can be interrupted without needing a readied action or an AoO.
King Kashue
05-29-07, 05:50 AM 1. Does the summoning Demon have to make Concentration checks for damage taken between the successful summoning and the new demon appearing?

For number 1, I would say no, since it is more like a deal between 2 people, than a spellcaster summoning a dire weasal.

Summoning is a spell like ability. Spell like abilities can be disrupted unless otherwise stated. Since it's not otherwise stated, it can be disrupted.

And specifically, the Summon ability entry says An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks... (MM p.315)

So, not only is it a spell like ability, and thus normally subject to disruption and Concentration checks, the checks are explicitly mentioned in the ability text.

2. Does the summoned Demon disappear if the summoning demon is killed?

and for 2 I would say no since in the MM I pg. 315 it says summoned demons remain for 1 hour.

Indeed. Nothing in either the Summon ability description, in the Summon Monster spell (which the Summon ability references), nor in the Summoning sub-school or Conjuration school descriptions say anything about Summoned creatures disappearing when the summoner dies.
_metz_
05-29-07, 06:44 AM On a simaler note - want to know how to kill an APL 6 party?

put a succubus in there.

"Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a succubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell."

Nothing like getting a CR 9 buddy 30% of the time...

(I always felt that their summoning ability wasn't fully taken into account into CR, and the succubus summoning a vrock makes no sense)

I know of at least one module where its a TPK if the DM rolls that percentile dice right... (encounter is over EL anyways...)
gomeztoo
05-29-07, 08:27 AM Indeed. Nothing in either the Summon ability description, in the Summon Monster spell (which the Summon ability references), nor in the Summoning sub-school or Conjuration school descriptions say anything about Summoned creatures disappearing when the summoner dies.

The lastest FAQ on Summon Monster explicitly states that when the caster dies they do NOT disappear.
Timlagor
05-29-07, 12:22 PM NOTA BENE because of the debt they end up owing for using this ability demons are very reluctant to use it and will only do so if they are in trouble (see the MM entry for Demon).

1) They can be disrupted and most people who examine it seem to think it's a full round action. (some don't and many GMs assume standard action and change their mind upon closer examination)

2) They definitely don't disappear.

Effects from a summoned creature do disappear when the Summoning spell runs out but that is not relevant to this situation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 05-29-07, 05:38 AM	Well I just tried that new search, didn't turn up what i want. I have read the MM I and it still didn't answer everything to my tables satisfaction. When a Demon summons another Demon, they owe a debt to the Demon that came and have a percentage chance of no demon answering their call. OK The summoned Demon stay for 1 hour. OK. If the summoning is successful.... 1. Does the summoning Demon have to make Concentration checks for damage taken between the successful summoning and the new demon appearing? 2. Does the summoned Demon disappear if the summoning demon is killed? For number 1, I would say no, since it is more like a deal between 2 people, than a spellcaster summoning a dire weasal. and for 2 I would say no since in the MM I pg. 315 it says summoned demons remain for 1 hour. Thanks for you help guys Cheers Gwumph
Maesto 05-29-07, 05:44 AM	From memory, the summon ability is described in the back of the monster manual, p315. It's a spell-like ability, so it can be disrupted if you take damage while casting it. Also, it behaves like summon monster spells - the creature appears instantly and acts immediately. There is some debate as to how long the summoning actually takes. Given that most spell like abilities take a standard action, and this one doesn't state that it takes longer, a number of people think it takes a standard action to attempt to summon, which is mitigated by the failure chance. The other half says that it's "much as though casting a summon monster spell", so it takes one full round to cast (full round action or two standard actions), and can be interrupted without needing a readied action or an AoO.
King Kashue 05-29-07, 05:50 AM	1. Does the summoning Demon have to make Concentration checks for damage taken between the successful summoning and the new demon appearing? For number 1, I would say no, since it is more like a deal between 2 people, than a spellcaster summoning a dire weasal. Summoning is a spell like ability. Spell like abilities can be disrupted unless otherwise stated. Since it's not otherwise stated, it can be disrupted. And specifically, the Summon ability entry says An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks... (MM p.315) So, not only is it a spell like ability, and thus normally subject to disruption and Concentration checks, the checks are explicitly mentioned in the ability text. 2. Does the summoned Demon disappear if the summoning demon is killed? and for 2 I would say no since in the MM I pg. 315 it says summoned demons remain for 1 hour. Indeed. Nothing in either the Summon ability description, in the Summon Monster spell (which the Summon ability references), nor in the Summoning sub-school or Conjuration school descriptions say anything about Summoned creatures disappearing when the summoner dies.
_metz_ 05-29-07, 06:44 AM	On a simaler note - want to know how to kill an APL 6 party? put a succubus in there. "Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a succubus can attempt to summon 1 vrock with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell." Nothing like getting a CR 9 buddy 30% of the time... (I always felt that their summoning ability wasn't fully taken into account into CR, and the succubus summoning a vrock makes no sense) I know of at least one module where its a TPK if the DM rolls that percentile dice right... (encounter is over EL anyways...)
gomeztoo 05-29-07, 08:27 AM	Indeed. Nothing in either the Summon ability description, in the Summon Monster spell (which the Summon ability references), nor in the Summoning sub-school or Conjuration school descriptions say anything about Summoned creatures disappearing when the summoner dies. The lastest FAQ on Summon Monster explicitly states that when the caster dies they do NOT disappear.
Timlagor 05-29-07, 12:22 PM	NOTA BENE because of the debt they end up owing for using this ability demons are very reluctant to use it and will only do so if they are in trouble (see the MM entry for Demon). 1) They can be disrupted and most people who examine it seem to think it's a full round action. (some don't and many GMs assume standard action and change their mind upon closer examination) 2) They definitely don't disappear. Effects from a summoned creature do disappear when the Summoning spell runs out but that is not relevant to this situation.