Destiny Domain Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Destiny Domain Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
12tanis
03-10-07, 10:46 AM Hi, one my players is going to get himself the Arcane Disciple Feat . His god is Labelas Enorath so he has access to the Destiny Domain (RD). The Destiny Domain from RD states that at 3rd Level Delay Death is available for selection. But since SoC Delay Death is a fourth Lvl spell. So does he now gain Delay Death as a 3rd Lvl Spell ? or as a 4th Lvl spell and what other spell does he get at the apropriate lvls ?.

Second Question related in that matter. Spell access for Wizards gained in this manner does count as a Spell in the Spell book (like the free ones at Lvl Up) ? or can he just miracously prepare them even without his spellbook ?

Third one.. also this is quite clear through the rules for me having a spell on your spell list enables you to use Items without making an Use Magical Device check. So with a Wizard with Arcane Disciple (Healing Domain) could use a Wand of Cure Light wounds and even craft one. But whats with scrolls ? Is there a distinction betweenn Arcane Scrolls and Divine scrolls ? and if there is and i craft an arcane scroll of cure light wounds could another Wizard use it to copy it into his spellbook ?

my guess you can copy but not memorize because the spell is not on your list (like having prohibited school spells in your spellbook).
Japangirl
03-10-07, 12:34 PM 1. It's still a 3rd level domain spell. The domains are allowed to play with spell levels all they like, for example Magic Missile is a 2nd level Force domain spell.

2. He would have to scribe it in his spellbook. He can either buy a scroll of it (assuming access) or take it as one of his free leveling up spells. He has to prepare them in his normal spells slots, and he can only have one per day per spell level. Additionally, he has to have Wis 13 to cast a 3rd level spell from Arcane Disciple.

3. Arcane and Divine scrolls are different, and casters of one cannot use the other. For example, bards can't use divine scrolls of CLW even though it's on their spell list. A wizard with Arcane Disciple (Healing domain) could make arcane scrolls of CLW but another wizard can't scribe them into his/her spellbook or cast them, because it's not on the other wizard's spell list.
Timlagor
03-10-07, 03:11 PM Also: if the spell does not normally appear on any Arcane Spell list then you can scribe it into your book from a Divine Scroll. If it does appear on an Arcane List then you must get the Arcane version.

In any case you can't cast from a Divine Scroll (without UMD or some other method).

Wands do not have an Arcane/Divine classification.
Alpha_Nerd
03-12-07, 12:55 PM Also: if the spell does not normally appear on any Arcane Spell list then you can scribe it into your book from a Divine Scroll. If it does appear on an Arcane List then you must get the Arcane version.

Where are you finding this? Not that I disagree, as it would be very useful for my Divine Oracle.
Timlagor
03-12-07, 08:36 PM Where are you finding this? Not that I disagree, as it would be very useful for my Divine Oracle.

My head...
If I needed the reference I'd check in the following order:
- Complete Divine (bit on non-Divine characters getting domains)
- Complete Divine Errata
- FAQ
- Pale Website.
clik_ml
03-13-07, 08:01 AM A wizard with Arcane Disciple (Healing domain) could make arcane scrolls of CLW but another wizard can't scribe them into his/her spellbook or cast them, because it's not on the other wizard's spell list.

Actually, there is no requirement that a spell learned from an arcane spell be on the wizard spell list. So this would totally fly in a non-LG game, but for LG I wouldn't bother with the headache. Heck, wizards can create their own spells if they wish by the rules in the PHB, but again, not for LG.
Mommy was an Orc
03-13-07, 08:46 AM Actually, there is no requirement that a spell learned from an arcane spell be on the wizard spell list.

If it isn't on your list, you can't cast it. Which arcane disciple overcomes, but a Wizard can't normally learn CLW from an arcane scroll(say that of a Bard)
zigspatty
03-13-07, 08:50 AM Also: if the spell does not normally appear on any Arcane Spell list then you can scribe it into your book from a Divine Scroll. If it does appear on an Arcane List then you must get the Arcane version.

September's Dispel Confusion included a clarification about spell access. While the question concerned wizard spells that are also bard spells, the phrase "as long as the spells are legible to the character" makes it fairly clear that access to any form of the spell will suffice. (Bards or even clerics can gain access to a NONC spell from a wizard's spell book.) Because LG gives us access to scrolls from the DMG below 750gp, purchase of a divine scroll can then serve as access for your arcane caster - but it's not meant to be a cost savings tool. Of course, your loremaster or arcane disciple is not going to be able to cast the spell from a divine scroll without some UMD or an appropriate divine casting class, he'll just be able to copy it into his spellbook.

From Dispel Confusion, Vol. 2, No. 3
Q: I have a bard character. If I find a spellbook that contains sorcerer/wizard spells, and some of them are bard spells as well, does purchasing the spellbook give me access to those spells?

A: Yes. Even though you may not be able to cast the spells from the spellbook, as long as the spells are legible to the character, you have access to the spells that appear on that classes’ list.

Hope this helps.

Patty
Timlagor
03-13-07, 09:24 AM Bard spells are arcane. There is no difference between a Bard Scroll and a Wizard Scroll.

There is a difference between a Wizard Scroll (ARCANE) and a Cleric Scroll (DIVINE). The answer you quote is no help at all in bridgeing the Arcane-Divine Divide.
awroe
03-13-07, 09:32 AM Where are you finding this? Not that I disagree, as it would be very useful for my Divine Oracle.

That would be Complete Divine p20

if she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book.

Note that you can still only memorize one domain spell of each level per day.
clik_ml
03-13-07, 06:41 PM If it isn't on your list, you can't cast it. Which arcane disciple overcomes, but a Wizard can't normally learn CLW from an arcane scroll(say that of a Bard)

Actually, the rules say you can research entirely new spells that don't exist on any list. But again, not for LG.

Arcane Disciple is a crappy feat outside of LG since you can do all that stuff without wasting a feat nor having awful restrictions and wisdom requirements. But we're in LG so the feat does have its place.
Mommy was an Orc
03-13-07, 07:25 PM Actually, the rules say you can research entirely new spells that don't exist on any list. But again, not for LG.

At the discretion of your DM. Most DMs exercise heavy discretion in this area.

Arcane Disciple is a crappy feat outside of LG since you can do all that stuff without wasting a feat nor having awful restrictions and wisdom requirements. But we're in LG so the feat does have its place.

Honestly, any DM that is allowing Wizards to research spells from other lists without spending feats is off his rocker.
clik_ml
03-14-07, 02:28 AM Honestly, any DM that is allowing Wizards to research spells from other lists without spending feats is off his rocker.

Oooooor they're perfectly sane and just following the core rules for wizards laid down in the Player's Handbook.

What I don't get is that if a wizard is casting a cleric spell at the same level as a cleric spell, then they should have just been a cleric in the first place since they'd have better fort saves, undead turning, easy armor casting, better HD, better weapon and armor proficiencies, and no need for arcane material components to boot, whew.

Any time a wizard casts a cleric spell when there's a cleric who could have been doing the same thing, they're usually wasting their superior wizard spell slots. Obviously there are fringe cases where some cleric spell is the right tool for the job, but usually the best tools are in the wizard's shack, or at least they should be since the wizard gets kicked in the nuts over every single aspect except their spells.

Spending a very precious feat to be an inferior cleric is insulting, and I won't make my homebrew players stoop to such levels. If the spell is balanced at whatever level the wizard researches the spell then by koresh I'll let them create it.

All that said, since these options aren't available for LG, the Arcane Disciple feat does have it's place for fringe builds. Especially melee gishes who want the nice divine spells to let them do a fighter's job, or players who want to do something a little unique (like a wizard who can cure wounds for example). I've had a few characters in mind who would make use of it, but only because they were in LG campaign which doesn't allow wizards their full versatility as granted in the player's handbook.
Mommy was an Orc
03-14-07, 09:45 AM Oooooor they're perfectly sane and just following the core rules for wizards laid down in the Player's Handbook.

No, they're not. The section isn't spells in general, it is about how Wizards learn their spells.

The core rules for Wizards allows them to research wizard spells that they don't have scroll or spellbook access to for some reason. Either for free when they level or when they have more time elsewhere. If you disagree on this, you're saying that a Wizard who levels should normally be able to pick any spell they want because both paragraphs use the same language.

And saying the writers intended wizards to pick up any spell from any list they want when they level is crazy in terms of intent.

Any time a wizard casts a cleric spell when there's a cleric who could have been doing the same thing, they're usually wasting their superior wizard spell slots.

You're kidding right? Just because Wizard spells are generally superior in terms of offense/battlefield control, it doesn't mean there aren't any spells a Wizard wouldn't like to cast from another list. Why wouldn't a Wizard learn 'Bard's Otto's Irresistable Dance' as a 6th level spell rather than an 8th level spell? Or a Gish cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor?
Timlagor
03-14-07, 03:33 PM [assorted comments]

Wow. Just wow.

It is very clear from your comments that you don't have a good understanding of power levels and class balance.

There are whole rafts of spells on the Cleric list that a Wizard would like to have but Wizards are already powerful enough: that doesn't mean they can do everything but they can do a lot of things extremely well.

If I was running a game and a Wizard wanted to do something like that I might allow it but there would be a level bump of at least one level on any non-Wizard spell to be replicated exactly (they might lower the spell level again by weakening the effect / increasing the costs etc). It would also require significant investment in the research.
clik_ml
03-14-07, 04:28 PM Uh huh.

To take it to the edge- if I find a wizard who exclusively casts cleric spells, then should I be appalled at how awesome this wizard is, or at how awful he is? To hear you guys, it should be the former.

I will (and did) grant that sometimes the cleric spells are the best tool for the job, especially for gishes (did I need a bigger nod for competition domain spells earlier?). However, by and large, a wizard who casts cleric spells is a much weaker chassis than a cleric who casts cleric spells. This fact isn't even debatable. Without their spell list, a wizard is effectively a commoner with a funny pet.

The player's handbook explicitly says that wizards can learn spells not found on their list (or on any list for that matter). It also says they can learn spells off of scrolls, without any requirement listed that they be from the wizard spell list.

Calling me off my rocker or incapable of assessing balance is a pretty astute form of argumentation though. Props to you good sirs.

For those playing along at home, here's the SRD excerpt regarding wizards learning new spells:

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

Independent Research
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. OMGWTFBBQ!

Okay, maybe that last acronym isn't totally in the SRD. But perhaps it should be :-)

Note how learning from a magic scroll never specifies that a scroll must be of a spell from the wizard list. Only that the scroll must be arcane (which I conclude from the Arcane Magical Writings text, which I'm not quoting mostly due to length).

It should be understood that the only way a wizard is going to do something like learn otto's irresistable dance at 6th level instead of 8th is if he finds an arcane scroll of that spell. So you either need a DM who hands you this item, or a bard player who burned a feat (and the gold and exp for a 6th level scroll at their high caster level) in order to give you their spells.

(I'm gonna bold this so people don't think I'm advocating that wizards should have all spells out there... the only way that happens is if the DM makes it so... I'm just saying that the rules allow the DM to finagle it)

Learning from arcane scrolls is still massively under DM fiat. It's not like you're handing the keys to the universe to the wizard simply by following the PHB as written. The DM still has control over what scrolls the wizard gets to find, and thus learn from.
Mommy was an Orc
03-14-07, 06:58 PM The player's handbook explicitly says that wizards can learn spells not found on their list (or on any list for that matter). It also says they can learn spells off of scrolls, without any requirement listed that they be from the wizard spell list.

No, it doesn't. Notice how what you quote references 'arcane magical writing' and is in the section 'preparing wizard spells'

It should be understood that the only way a wizard is going to do something like learn otto's irresistable dance at 6th level instead of 8th is if he finds an arcane scroll of that spell.

A Wizard gets to research two spells for free every level. If your logic is true for spells that he chooses to spend more time researching, then it is also true for them as well. Meaning any 11th level wizard can pick it right then and there.
Timlagor
03-14-07, 09:33 PM To take it to the edge- if I find a wizard who exclusively casts cleric spells, then should I be appalled at how awesome this wizard is, or at how awful he is? To hear you guys, it should be the former.

No. If he only casts cleric spells then he's pretty darn foolish.

However if he takes the best of both lists then he will be overpowered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
12tanis 03-10-07, 10:46 AM	Hi, one my players is going to get himself the Arcane Disciple Feat . His god is Labelas Enorath so he has access to the Destiny Domain (RD). The Destiny Domain from RD states that at 3rd Level Delay Death is available for selection. But since SoC Delay Death is a fourth Lvl spell. So does he now gain Delay Death as a 3rd Lvl Spell ? or as a 4th Lvl spell and what other spell does he get at the apropriate lvls ?. Second Question related in that matter. Spell access for Wizards gained in this manner does count as a Spell in the Spell book (like the free ones at Lvl Up) ? or can he just miracously prepare them even without his spellbook ? Third one.. also this is quite clear through the rules for me having a spell on your spell list enables you to use Items without making an Use Magical Device check. So with a Wizard with Arcane Disciple (Healing Domain) could use a Wand of Cure Light wounds and even craft one. But whats with scrolls ? Is there a distinction betweenn Arcane Scrolls and Divine scrolls ? and if there is and i craft an arcane scroll of cure light wounds could another Wizard use it to copy it into his spellbook ? my guess you can copy but not memorize because the spell is not on your list (like having prohibited school spells in your spellbook).
Japangirl 03-10-07, 12:34 PM	1. It's still a 3rd level domain spell. The domains are allowed to play with spell levels all they like, for example Magic Missile is a 2nd level Force domain spell. 2. He would have to scribe it in his spellbook. He can either buy a scroll of it (assuming access) or take it as one of his free leveling up spells. He has to prepare them in his normal spells slots, and he can only have one per day per spell level. Additionally, he has to have Wis 13 to cast a 3rd level spell from Arcane Disciple. 3. Arcane and Divine scrolls are different, and casters of one cannot use the other. For example, bards can't use divine scrolls of CLW even though it's on their spell list. A wizard with Arcane Disciple (Healing domain) could make arcane scrolls of CLW but another wizard can't scribe them into his/her spellbook or cast them, because it's not on the other wizard's spell list.
Timlagor 03-10-07, 03:11 PM	Also: if the spell does not normally appear on any Arcane Spell list then you can scribe it into your book from a Divine Scroll. If it does appear on an Arcane List then you must get the Arcane version. In any case you can't cast from a Divine Scroll (without UMD or some other method). Wands do not have an Arcane/Divine classification.
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 12:55 PM	Also: if the spell does not normally appear on any Arcane Spell list then you can scribe it into your book from a Divine Scroll. If it does appear on an Arcane List then you must get the Arcane version. Where are you finding this? Not that I disagree, as it would be very useful for my Divine Oracle.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 08:36 PM	Where are you finding this? Not that I disagree, as it would be very useful for my Divine Oracle. My head... If I needed the reference I'd check in the following order: - Complete Divine (bit on non-Divine characters getting domains) - Complete Divine Errata - FAQ - Pale Website.
clik_ml 03-13-07, 08:01 AM	A wizard with Arcane Disciple (Healing domain) could make arcane scrolls of CLW but another wizard can't scribe them into his/her spellbook or cast them, because it's not on the other wizard's spell list. Actually, there is no requirement that a spell learned from an arcane spell be on the wizard spell list. So this would totally fly in a non-LG game, but for LG I wouldn't bother with the headache. Heck, wizards can create their own spells if they wish by the rules in the PHB, but again, not for LG.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 08:46 AM	Actually, there is no requirement that a spell learned from an arcane spell be on the wizard spell list. If it isn't on your list, you can't cast it. Which arcane disciple overcomes, but a Wizard can't normally learn CLW from an arcane scroll(say that of a Bard)
zigspatty 03-13-07, 08:50 AM	Also: if the spell does not normally appear on any Arcane Spell list then you can scribe it into your book from a Divine Scroll. If it does appear on an Arcane List then you must get the Arcane version. September's Dispel Confusion included a clarification about spell access. While the question concerned wizard spells that are also bard spells, the phrase "as long as the spells are legible to the character" makes it fairly clear that access to any form of the spell will suffice. (Bards or even clerics can gain access to a NONC spell from a wizard's spell book.) Because LG gives us access to scrolls from the DMG below 750gp, purchase of a divine scroll can then serve as access for your arcane caster - but it's not meant to be a cost savings tool. Of course, your loremaster or arcane disciple is not going to be able to cast the spell from a divine scroll without some UMD or an appropriate divine casting class, he'll just be able to copy it into his spellbook. From Dispel Confusion, Vol. 2, No. 3 Q: I have a bard character. If I find a spellbook that contains sorcerer/wizard spells, and some of them are bard spells as well, does purchasing the spellbook give me access to those spells? A: Yes. Even though you may not be able to cast the spells from the spellbook, as long as the spells are legible to the character, you have access to the spells that appear on that classes’ list. Hope this helps. Patty
Timlagor 03-13-07, 09:24 AM	Bard spells are arcane. There is no difference between a Bard Scroll and a Wizard Scroll. There is a difference between a Wizard Scroll (ARCANE) and a Cleric Scroll (DIVINE). The answer you quote is no help at all in bridgeing the Arcane-Divine Divide.
awroe 03-13-07, 09:32 AM	Where are you finding this? Not that I disagree, as it would be very useful for my Divine Oracle. That would be Complete Divine p20 if she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book. Note that you can still only memorize one domain spell of each level per day.
clik_ml 03-13-07, 06:41 PM	If it isn't on your list, you can't cast it. Which arcane disciple overcomes, but a Wizard can't normally learn CLW from an arcane scroll(say that of a Bard) Actually, the rules say you can research entirely new spells that don't exist on any list. But again, not for LG. Arcane Disciple is a crappy feat outside of LG since you can do all that stuff without wasting a feat nor having awful restrictions and wisdom requirements. But we're in LG so the feat does have its place.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 07:25 PM	Actually, the rules say you can research entirely new spells that don't exist on any list. But again, not for LG. At the discretion of your DM. Most DMs exercise heavy discretion in this area. Arcane Disciple is a crappy feat outside of LG since you can do all that stuff without wasting a feat nor having awful restrictions and wisdom requirements. But we're in LG so the feat does have its place. Honestly, any DM that is allowing Wizards to research spells from other lists without spending feats is off his rocker.
clik_ml 03-14-07, 02:28 AM	Honestly, any DM that is allowing Wizards to research spells from other lists without spending feats is off his rocker. Oooooor they're perfectly sane and just following the core rules for wizards laid down in the Player's Handbook. What I don't get is that if a wizard is casting a cleric spell at the same level as a cleric spell, then they should have just been a cleric in the first place since they'd have better fort saves, undead turning, easy armor casting, better HD, better weapon and armor proficiencies, and no need for arcane material components to boot, whew. Any time a wizard casts a cleric spell when there's a cleric who could have been doing the same thing, they're usually wasting their superior wizard spell slots. Obviously there are fringe cases where some cleric spell is the right tool for the job, but usually the best tools are in the wizard's shack, or at least they should be since the wizard gets kicked in the nuts over every single aspect except their spells. Spending a very precious feat to be an inferior cleric is insulting, and I won't make my homebrew players stoop to such levels. If the spell is balanced at whatever level the wizard researches the spell then by koresh I'll let them create it. All that said, since these options aren't available for LG, the Arcane Disciple feat does have it's place for fringe builds. Especially melee gishes who want the nice divine spells to let them do a fighter's job, or players who want to do something a little unique (like a wizard who can cure wounds for example). I've had a few characters in mind who would make use of it, but only because they were in LG campaign which doesn't allow wizards their full versatility as granted in the player's handbook.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-07, 09:45 AM	Oooooor they're perfectly sane and just following the core rules for wizards laid down in the Player's Handbook. No, they're not. The section isn't spells in general, it is about how Wizards learn their spells. The core rules for Wizards allows them to research wizard spells that they don't have scroll or spellbook access to for some reason. Either for free when they level or when they have more time elsewhere. If you disagree on this, you're saying that a Wizard who levels should normally be able to pick any spell they want because both paragraphs use the same language. And saying the writers intended wizards to pick up any spell from any list they want when they level is crazy in terms of intent. Any time a wizard casts a cleric spell when there's a cleric who could have been doing the same thing, they're usually wasting their superior wizard spell slots. You're kidding right? Just because Wizard spells are generally superior in terms of offense/battlefield control, it doesn't mean there aren't any spells a Wizard wouldn't like to cast from another list. Why wouldn't a Wizard learn 'Bard's Otto's Irresistable Dance' as a 6th level spell rather than an 8th level spell? Or a Gish cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor?
Timlagor 03-14-07, 03:33 PM	[assorted comments] Wow. Just wow. It is very clear from your comments that you don't have a good understanding of power levels and class balance. There are whole rafts of spells on the Cleric list that a Wizard would like to have but Wizards are already powerful enough: that doesn't mean they can do everything but they can do a lot of things extremely well. If I was running a game and a Wizard wanted to do something like that I might allow it but there would be a level bump of at least one level on any non-Wizard spell to be replicated exactly (they might lower the spell level again by weakening the effect / increasing the costs etc). It would also require significant investment in the research.
clik_ml 03-14-07, 04:28 PM	Uh huh. To take it to the edge- if I find a wizard who exclusively casts cleric spells, then should I be appalled at how awesome this wizard is, or at how awful he is? To hear you guys, it should be the former. I will (and did) grant that sometimes the cleric spells are the best tool for the job, especially for gishes (did I need a bigger nod for competition domain spells earlier?). However, by and large, a wizard who casts cleric spells is a much weaker chassis than a cleric who casts cleric spells. This fact isn't even debatable. Without their spell list, a wizard is effectively a commoner with a funny pet. The player's handbook explicitly says that wizards can learn spells not found on their list (or on any list for that matter). It also says they can learn spells off of scrolls, without any requirement listed that they be from the wizard spell list. Calling me off my rocker or incapable of assessing balance is a pretty astute form of argumentation though. Props to you good sirs. For those playing along at home, here's the SRD excerpt regarding wizards learning new spells: Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp. Independent Research A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. OMGWTFBBQ! Okay, maybe that last acronym isn't totally in the SRD. But perhaps it should be :-) Note how learning from a magic scroll never specifies that a scroll must be of a spell from the wizard list. Only that the scroll must be arcane (which I conclude from the Arcane Magical Writings text, which I'm not quoting mostly due to length). It should be understood that the only way a wizard is going to do something like learn otto's irresistable dance at 6th level instead of 8th is if he finds an arcane scroll of that spell. So you either need a DM who hands you this item, or a bard player who burned a feat (and the gold and exp for a 6th level scroll at their high caster level) in order to give you their spells. (I'm gonna bold this so people don't think I'm advocating that wizards should have all spells out there... the only way that happens is if the DM makes it so... I'm just saying that the rules allow the DM to finagle it) Learning from arcane scrolls is still massively under DM fiat. It's not like you're handing the keys to the universe to the wizard simply by following the PHB as written. The DM still has control over what scrolls the wizard gets to find, and thus learn from.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-07, 06:58 PM	The player's handbook explicitly says that wizards can learn spells not found on their list (or on any list for that matter). It also says they can learn spells off of scrolls, without any requirement listed that they be from the wizard spell list. No, it doesn't. Notice how what you quote references 'arcane magical writing' and is in the section 'preparing wizard spells' It should be understood that the only way a wizard is going to do something like learn otto's irresistable dance at 6th level instead of 8th is if he finds an arcane scroll of that spell. A Wizard gets to research two spells for free every level. If your logic is true for spells that he chooses to spend more time researching, then it is also true for them as well. Meaning any 11th level wizard can pick it right then and there.
Timlagor 03-14-07, 09:33 PM	To take it to the edge- if I find a wizard who exclusively casts cleric spells, then should I be appalled at how awesome this wizard is, or at how awful he is? To hear you guys, it should be the former. No. If he only casts cleric spells then he's pretty darn foolish. However if he takes the best of both lists then he will be overpowered.