Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 12-21-06, 06:11 PM	In a recent LG mod (Rauxes though its not relevant to the post) the GM ruled that the diehard feat used by one of the PC's to try and escape a bad situation only worked against lethal damage. The argument was that because the PC was on negative hitpoints when diehard kicks in any nonlethal damge at all, even one hit point, exceeds the total current hitpoints and thus renders the PC unconscious as per the description of non-lethal damage. Does this trick actually work ? If so it seems to render diehard even more useless than it already is.
Britt 12-21-06, 07:28 PM	That seems to be the consensus ruling that I've heard.
copper_wyrmling 12-21-06, 07:43 PM	That seems to be the consensus ruling that I've heard. I never saw this ruling until people started asking about Delay Death + Diehard, but it does seem to be a general consensus now. I don't like the logic, though - maybe I'm too much of a mathematician, but you know, 0 points of subdual is also more than any negative number. I think that Diehard fairly clearly overrides that section of the rules, exactly as it overrides the usual rule "you go unconscious when your hit points fall below zero". I think I'm in the minority here though, at least among the people who read Infinite Monkeys.
Madfox11 12-22-06, 05:38 AM	By the RAW: yes. Now personally I would allow a character to remain conscious (albeit staggered) until the non-lethal damage and real damage together gets the character at -10.
solbergb 12-27-06, 01:36 PM	Source of the majority Infiinite Monkeys opinion: Nonlethal doesn't add to real damage. It is a separate track. You compare it to the current hitpoint total If Nonlethal > hitpoint total you fall over thud. Therefore if your nonlethal total is not null, any amount will take out a diehard guy (or boar or frenzied berserker or anything else that fights at subzero hitpoints). Note that diehard, as written, won't keep you awake past -9 hitpoints. So even without this interpretation, delay death+diehard isn't much of a combo...it just means you don't die when you're stupid enough to take actions in the -1 to -9 timescale. It's only boars with the Ferocity trait and a few other things (no core class abilities or feats or spells do this) in the various monster books that can keep fighting once past -10 with delay death. Things like this do exist though, and the nonlethal damage option is there for you if players or authors try to make an unbeatable encoutner.
Nutation 12-28-06, 02:09 PM	It's only boars with the Ferocity trait and a few other things (no core class abilities or feats or spells do this) in the various monster books that can keep fighting once past -10 with delay death. Boar's Ferocity (wild feat in CD) does this. Ferocity itself is a Special Attack (Ex), so it works with wildshape.
copper_wyrmling 12-30-06, 02:45 AM	If Nonlethal > hitpoint total you fall over thud. Therefore if your nonlethal total is not null, any amount will take out a diehard guy (or boar or frenzied berserker or anything else that fights at subzero hitpoints). Solbergb, I understand the first line of your argument. I'm not sure why you claim this applies only "if your nonlethal total is not null". 0 > -1, yes? That's why I think Diehard overrules the usual nonlethal damage rules...
Morgen 12-30-06, 01:37 PM	Your supposed to track Nonlethal and Lethal damage seperately. Take your hitpoints. If you take lethal damage you subract from the current total. When you take nonlethal damage you count up from 0. If at any time your current HP total is less then the ammount of nonlethal damage you've taken your knocked unconcious. (If they are equal you are staggered so you all know.) Your nonlethal damage is /not/ deducted from your current hitpoints so diehard has absolutely no affect on nonlethal damage. If your a fighter with Diehard and 35hp and you've taken 36 points of nonlethal damage you fall unconcious because you've taken no "real" damage. Your not at -1, your at 35 with 36 points of nonlethal. PHB Page 147
Jay_Ibero_911 12-30-06, 06:47 PM	Source of the majority Infiinite Monkeys opinion: Nonlethal doesn't add to real damage. It is a separate track. You compare it to the current hitpoint total If Nonlethal > hitpoint total you fall over thud. Therefore if your nonlethal total is not null, any amount will take out a diehard guy (or boar or frenzied berserker or anything else that fights at subzero hitpoints). Note that diehard, as written, won't keep you awake past -9 hitpoints. So even without this interpretation, delay death+diehard isn't much of a combo...it just means you don't die when you're stupid enough to take actions in the -1 to -9 timescale. It's only boars with the Ferocity trait and a few other things (no core class abilities or feats or spells do this) in the various monster books that can keep fighting once past -10 with delay death. Things like this do exist though, and the nonlethal damage option is there for you if players or authors try to make an unbeatable encoutner. Diehard allows you to auto-stabilize, as well as allowing you to act as if you were only disabled (only standard or move action, no full round) while in negative HP. The only limitation in the feat is that you die if you reach -10. Delay Death removes the risk of death at -10 and beyond. Therefore, with Diehard AND Delay Death, you can continue to act as is only disabled into infinite negatvive HP. To restate it simply, Diehard allows you to remain conscious and act while at negative HP, but you die as normal at -10. Delay Death removes the -10 limit, ergo, you can continue acting as if disabled at -10 and beyond... Solbergb, I understand the first line of your argument. I'm not sure why you claim this applies only "if your nonlethal total is not null". 0 > -1, yes? That's why I think Diehard overrules the usual nonlethal damage rules... That makes a lot of sense....afterall, 0 points of non-lethal damage is still greater than any negative HP...so if you are gung-ho to go by RAW, then die hard wouldn't do ANYTHING except let you auto-stabilize, because it only affects your capacity to act while in negative HP, and makes no mention of overriding the non-lethal damage rules.
Iswald 12-31-06, 04:56 AM	Diehard ... The only limitation in the feat is that you die if you reach -10. Delay Death removes the risk of death at -10 and beyond. Delay Death doesn't remove the normal limitation of the Diehard feat. The spell doesn't keep characters from going into the dieing state at -1 and Diehard doesn't work past -9.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-31-06, 10:43 AM	Delay Death doesn't remove the normal limitation of the Diehard feat. The spell doesn't keep characters from going into the dieing state at -1 and Diehard doesn't work past -9. Diehard [General] Prerequisite Endurance. Benefit When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round. When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die. Normal A character without this feat who is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points is unconscious and dying. Nowhere does it say that if you don't die at -10, then you can no longer continue to act. And since -10 and beyond are still negative hit points last time I checked, then by RAW you can still continue acting as per the feat....I don't see where you are getting that you enter a dying state at -10 and beyond with Diehard and Delay Death. The relevant clause does not specify that it only functions between -1 and -9. Of course, this is all moot because the moment a character with Diehard hits -1 they still fall unconscious because their non-lethal damage is automatically greater than their current HP total. RAW is silly, ain't it?
Reska 12-31-06, 08:11 PM	Of course, this is all moot because the moment a character with Diehard hits -1 they still fall unconscious because their non-lethal damage is automatically greater than their current HP total. RAW is silly, ain't it? Which could be fixed by replacing certain words in the following statement with "Non-Lethal": "No Constitution (Non-lethal damage) is not the same as 0 Constitution (Non-lethal damage)." Italics added by me.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-31-06, 09:47 PM	Which could be fixed by replacing certain words in the following statement with "Non-Lethal": "No Constitution (Non-lethal damage) is not the same as 0 Constitution (Non-lethal damage)." Italics added by me. It certainly could be fixed by that...but unfortunately the rules do not explicitly state that that is the case, like they do in regards to ability scores. It certainly makes sense though. I am also of the mind that, by the spirit of the rules, it makes no sense that while a character with Diehard can remain conscious and act after having suffered large ammounts of LETHAL damage, that he can be made to just fall over if he suffers a single point of non-lethal damage, whereas if that was a single point of LETHAL damage instead, the character would still be able to act, provided it did not reduce him to -10 or less.
clannagh 01-01-07, 06:23 PM	of course its possible to argue that diehard simply has NEVER actually worked because zero nonlethal is always greater than any negative value. The way to avoid this would be to claim that nonlethal damage simply is nonexistant (rather than zero) unless you actually take nonlethal damage.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-01-07, 06:37 PM	of course its possible to argue that diehard simply has NEVER actually worked because zero nonlethal is always greater than any negative value. The way to avoid this would be to claim that nonlethal damage simply is nonexistant (rather than zero) unless you actually take nonlethal damage. Again, it would be a simple fix, but it's not in the RAW...
Reska 01-01-07, 07:14 PM	of course its possible to argue that diehard simply has NEVER actually worked because zero nonlethal is always greater than any negative value. The way to avoid this would be to claim that nonlethal damage simply is nonexistant (rather than zero) unless you actually take nonlethal damage. Which is what I said.....
jhorred 01-03-07, 05:20 PM	Again, it would be a simple fix, but it's not in the RAW... I don't see this. I don't see how taking no nonlethal damage would give you any number, much like the - Con thing. On your character sheet do you write a '0' in the nonlethal damage box when you make the character? You write a number in the box when take actual damage, right? I guess, I'm back to arguing the spirit of the rule, but I think it's weasely to argue that the feat doesn't work as written in the book. Heck, do 1 pt of nonlethal the guys definitely going down, he actually has damage then. Diehard wouldn't protect versus all non lethal, but Is a character that has taken no damage at all, unwounded or has he suffered a 0 points of damage? I would say he's unwounded. Can't really take a 0 point wound AFAIK.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-03-07, 11:58 PM	I don't see this. I don't see how taking no nonlethal damage would give you any number, much like the - Con thing. On your character sheet do you write a '0' in the nonlethal damage box when you make the character? You write a number in the box when take actual damage, right? I guess, I'm back to arguing the spirit of the rule, but I think it's weasely to argue that the feat doesn't work as written in the book. Heck, do 1 pt of nonlethal the guys definitely going down, he actually has damage then. Diehard wouldn't protect versus all non lethal, but Is a character that has taken no damage at all, unwounded or has he suffered a 0 points of damage? I would say he's unwounded. Can't really take a 0 point wound AFAIK. The problem is that the rules only specify the difference between ZERO and NOTHING when it comes to ability scores. Ultimately my point is that Diehard should either be all or nothing when it comes to non-lethal damage. It doesn't really make any sense that a character can take additional LETHAL damage, ie: Chunks of flesh ripped out, but a tiny bruise is going to put him under? Not that I intend to try and exploit it myself, in fact, I'd almost LIKE to see a baddie using the combination, and would be disappointed if a sinlge point of non-lethal damage ended the encounter...
Reska 01-04-07, 12:12 AM	The problem is that the rules only specify the difference between ZERO and NOTHING when it comes to ability scores. Ultimately my point is that Diehard should either be all or nothing when it comes to non-lethal damage. It doesn't really make any sense that a character can take additional LETHAL damage, ie: Chunks of flesh ripped out, but a tiny bruise is going to put him under? Not that I intend to try and exploit it myself, in fact, I'd almost LIKE to see a baddie using the combination, and would be disappointed if a sinlge point of non-lethal damage ended the encounter... It also specifies between Fly 0 and No Fly Speed.
solbergb 01-04-07, 12:23 AM	and being able to cast "0" spells/day and no ability to cast spells.
jhorred 01-04-07, 02:13 AM	These are all abilities or stats, not something that is variable and everchanging.
Japangirl 01-04-07, 03:09 AM	These are all abilities or stats, not something that is variable and everchanging. Have you ever seen a high level wizard walk into and out of an anti-magic field? Talk about variable and everchanging stats!
_m_ 01-07-07, 10:20 PM	i'm inclined to agree with jay. i mean, if i'm on -1 and get hit in the face with an axe, and drop to -8, but am still concious, how does it make sense that the same axe, used subdually (flat side instead of blade) will take me out. i realise the 'that doesn't make sense' argument has little place in d&d, but still. how about, shocking grasp on a fist, used as an actuall attack: shocking fist goes off, takes play to -1. diehard kicks in, they are still ok. then they take 1 subdual damage from the actual fist... and pass out :D
clannagh 01-07-07, 10:34 PM	i'm inclined to agree with jay. i mean, if i'm on -1 and get hit in the face with an axe, and drop to -8, but am still concious, how does it make sense that the same axe, used subdually (flat side instead of blade) will take me out. i realise the 'that doesn't make sense' argument has little place in d&d, but still. how about, shocking grasp on a fist, used as an actuall attack: shocking fist goes off, takes play to -1. diehard kicks in, they are still ok. then they take 1 subdual damage from the actual fist... and pass out :D I agree the result of the current rules is stupid. If a character on 40 hitpoints takes 41 normal damage he walks off but 41 subdual drops him ? that is just odd. The problem is what else to do .. making diehard ignore subdual would make it too powerful. Perhaps subdual should need to drop you 10 below you current hitpoints if you have diehard ???
_m_ 01-08-07, 12:32 AM	I agree the result of the current rules is stupid. If a character on 40 hitpoints takes 41 normal damage he walks off but 41 subdual drops him ? that is just odd. The problem is what else to do .. making diehard ignore subdual would make it too powerful. Perhaps subdual should need to drop you 10 below you current hitpoints if you have diehard ??? seems it would work to me: normaly, -1 to -9 is ok, but -10 kills you, and subdual just drops you: so downgrade both with diehard. i know i didnt describe that very well, but the -1 to -9 range should be applied to subdual. so you function normaly with diehard until you die, but 10 points (0 through to -10) subdual will also kill you: you have already taken a fair beating.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-08-07, 12:47 AM	seems it would work to me: normaly, -1 to -9 is ok, but -10 kills you, and subdual just drops you: so downgrade both with diehard. i know i didnt describe that very well, but the -1 to -9 range should be applied to subdual. so you function normaly with diehard until you die, but 10 points (0 through to -10) subdual will also kill you: you have already taken a fair beating. I think you're on to something. Might make a good bit of erratta to add something like this to Diehard "While you are at negative hit points and still acting, any non-lethal damage you might suffer is converted to lethal damage, as while you struggle to remain conscious any damage takes a serious toll." Then you don't have the issue's with non-lethal damage anymore, and functions without issue with Delay Death.
_m_ 01-08-07, 12:52 AM	I think you're on to something. Might make a good bit of erratta to add something like this to Diehard "While you are at negative hit points and still acting, , as while you struggle to remain conscious any damage takes a serious toll." Then you don't have the issue's with non-lethal damage anymore, and functions without issue with Delay Death. you need to fix that to say: any non-lethal damage you might suffer is converted to lethal damage for the purposes of determining weather you remain concious. otherwise you could get killed by nonlethal damage, which cant happen.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-08-07, 06:48 PM	you need to fix that to say: any non-lethal damage you might suffer is converted to lethal damage for the purposes of determining weather you remain concious. otherwise you could get killed by nonlethal damage, which cant happen. Well, with my version, I actually intended that to be a possibility, to try to balance out the fact that you otherwise can't be knocked out unless you die. I'm not quite sure how your version would work. So you would still die as normal if you reach -10, and you would not go unconscious unless your non-lethal damage subtracted from your current HP was -10 or less?
_m_ 01-08-07, 09:31 PM	Well, with my version, I actually intended that to be a possibility, to try to balance out the fact that you otherwise can't be knocked out unless you die. I'm not quite sure how your version would work. So you would still die as normal if you reach -10, and you would not go unconscious unless your non-lethal damage subtracted from your current HP was -10 or less? it would use the lethal normaly as far as die hard works, but for the purpose of subdual damage, it would assume that you had taken subdual damage aloof from your real damage, up to a total of 10 less than your total hit points, + however far you were below 0 from lethal. i realise that's a very convoluted way of saying it, but what it means is, that the subdual simply adds to the lethal for the purposes of being killed, with the exception that if non lethal takes you to -10, you go unconcious, as if hitting -1 from subdual, and if you go -10 from lethal, you die. make sense? it's as if you have 10 more hp for subdual then you regularly would, due to being hardcore from diehard.