Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Baron_VonWarhammer 02-10-07, 10:31 PM	Hello I'm a little new to the 3.5 rules, so I applogize in advance if my questions have obvious answers. I was playing at a table with a 10th level Sorcerer/Mindbender who had really maxed out his diplomacy modifier, i.e. 13 ranks, +6synergy, skill focus, 20Cha, greater choker of eloquence, etc. His modifier was about +40. The mindbender class gives him telepathy, so every combat we had he would ask the GM if they spoke a language, and if they did, he would do a hasty diplomacy (-10) to make them friendly. Needless to say he could easily get a roll high enough to shift the attackers attitude to friendly and combat was over. To me this seems wrong, but no one at the table, including me, could find anything specific that he was incorrectly using the skill. So the mod was pretty much over before it began. Obvioiusly this wouldn't work on most undead or some other mindless creature, but he used it on a chain devil, an earth elemental, and an ogre mage because they all "speak a language." The other "strategy" used was good ol' charm monster. Obviously his DC was crazy high so that pretty much everything would fail, but then the charmed monster had pretty much no chance of beating him on an opposed charisma test so it would do what he asked. Because the duration of the spell is quite long, we had a nice little entourage following us around the dungeon. So when we came across some oozes, which he couldn't diplomasize, we had plenty of monsters to hide behind. In his defense, when he charmed a monster he usually just had it protect him and not do anything crazy, nor did he make it go far from it's home. When he diplomacized something he usually just asked to let us go in peace. So is this guy doing everything correct? Once again I admit to being fairly new to 3.5, but this really seems like some kind of rule abuse. Thanks for any input you can give me Baron VonWarhammer
Iswald 02-10-07, 11:55 PM	It depends upon the NPCs motivations. Sometimes, the NPCs have to try to kill you even if you do change their attitude to friendly. Just how friendly are chaotic evils towards their friends?
clik_ml 02-11-07, 12:13 AM	It sounds like the only diplomacy oddity here is that he only has a +40ish bonus. What, he couldn't find a metaorg and dip in marshal? Yeesh. Honestly, this character has sunk a lot of investment into having this ability, which does not work on all creatures. I wouldn't be worried about it. He's even got to be careful with the telepathy (and I'm not saying that this guy isn't) since some regions can get you jail time for using it indiscriminately. If he is just getting them into the friendly zone (which is what charm monster does also), then they are just going to offer limited help, which doesn't include protection or even healing- mostly just advice and non-confrontation (which can be totally worth it anyway). For him to be scoring protectors just from diplomacy, he needs to beat a DC 60 check (after including penalty for hasty diplomacy, assuming hostile target). However, shifting them from friendly (after being charm monster'd) to helpful is automatic for any decent diplomancer. Be advised, at the APLs you seem to be playing at, you may find folks wandering around with significantly higher diplomacy bonuses than what you found here.
Maesto 02-11-07, 01:03 AM	A couple of points... Diplomacy is a silly skill by the way it's written, because the DCs don't change by level. What most DMs do when confronted by such a diplomacy check in combat is to look at the motivations of the attackers. For example, if you're being attacked by a wizard, then maybe his master is being held hostage and he's forced to take you out to save him, so no matter how friendly he may be towards you, he's still going to try to take you out. A chain devil, well, I seriously doubt you can appeal to a chain devil's motivations and convince him that it's not in his interest to kill you, no matter how friendly he will be as he does it. As one DM I've had said: "he'll kill you while he smiles at you". Ogre magi are similar in that I wouldn't even bother trying to diplomacise with them. You might get away with the earth elemental, depending on why it's there. Charm monster, on the other hand, has some serious limitations. I think it's a +4 or 5 bonus to the save when used in combat to start with, and it's difficult to ask the charmed monster to do anything other than not hit the caster. It would be a very well phrased request that would make him not attack the rest of the party. Remember, charm monster just makes the monster take what you say in the most positive possible way - it's not usually an encounter stopper. Cheers, Jolyon
Morgen 02-11-07, 02:01 AM	That doens't make much sense. Things like Chain Devils and Ogre Mages ususally have the least reasons to kill you. They're just murderous, not like they've got some huge agenda. That's pretty much how Diplomacy works. Synergy makes it bad, the greater choker makes it worse. Heck, my 9th level Paladin of Bahumat only has a +24. :(
Shieldhart91 02-11-07, 04:13 AM	Wow that was quick. I was the DM, and I am slightly inexperienced. Having Skip at my table is definetly a learning EXPERIENCE =D So I'll begin with my reasoning. It's in my rationale that Kytons, who are simply defending a keep would help in minor ways. I probably shouldn't have had the lesser chain devil attack his boss, but...again, inexperience roots it's ugly head in here. The Ogre Mage? Well...gee. He's in a tribe, and I don't really see why not. Sure- he's Lawful Evil, but it's not like they were telling the mage to pray to Heireonous (sp?) or anything. They just wanted a spell-buffer meat-shield. I tried justifying all of the actions in my head, and there's at least one encounter I would've changed around. Which was probably the Chain Devils. Then again, if the Mind Bender (who was a L5 Mind Bender, FYI) did use his little ouija magick...all bets are off. I think. I'm not that familiar with the Pres Class.
gomeztoo 02-11-07, 04:43 AM	Diplomacy always needs *some* rationalization. Just saying 'i'm a cool guy, don't kill me', generally won't do it (well, ok, maybe he'll kill you last). There are probably lots of situations where the rigth word will cause the diplomacy to succeed. It simply depends on the monsters' motivation and what the PC knows of the situation. I had one scenario where a blighter was out to kill her sister with a wasting disease. Early on, she had brutaly tortured an elf woman, cutting out her eyes before murdering her, and sealing her soul in a weapon. This girl was Evil. She was out to kill her sister and no babbling idiot no matter how wellspoken was going to stop her. The only way to befriend her was if you helped her kill her sister (which was an evil act, of course). This is an extreme example, but there are lots of others that demand you know what is going on.
Timlagor 02-11-07, 04:52 AM	The other thing to bear in mind is that if you talk your way out of a fight you don't get the loot.
Southernskies 02-11-07, 07:43 AM	The other thing to bear in mind is that if you talk your way out of a fight you don't get the loot. And potentially don't get any XP either. Look carefully at the wording of the Experience Point Summary. Many times it requires you to "defeat" or "kill" your opponent to earn xp. Simply getting them to let you past means it often becomes a non-encounter (no risk, no reward). This can be a little open to DM interpretation. If the encounter is only there to stop you getting from Point A to Point B, then talking your way out of it would be "defeating" it. If it is just some random mook wandering around a dungeon, then talking doesn't gain you anything, as they weren't there to stop you in the first place.
gomeztoo 02-11-07, 07:51 AM	That could be a fault of the scenario though. It depends: getting 'past the guard' should do, whether by Diplomacy or fighting. 'Stoppign the high priest from enacting his evil ritual' similarly, though I dare say diplomacy is a lot less likely to work there. In general, when you encounter an opponent, you should get xp. If you avoid it entirley (i.e. by teleporting past it) you shouldn't. One thing people didn't mention: An occasional succesful Diplomacy check may speed up things and can be a welcome deviation. Occasionally it may also be the 'right' thing to do. But if it ends every combat every time, only the diplo-monkey has fun. That is something to watch out for.
Mortepierre 02-11-07, 07:58 AM	Not to mention that there are still a lot of people out there who mistake Charm Person/Monster for Dominate. That's simply not the case! If you charm someone, that person now considers you her best buddy. That doesn't mean she is going to treat your friends the same way, or that she'll desert her post just to please you, or even that she is going to help you injure her boss. Duty wins over personal feelings most of the time (at least with non-Chaotic opponents).
Simpi 02-11-07, 07:59 AM	A couple of points... Diplomacy is a silly skill by the way it's written, because the DCs don't change by level. What most DMs do when confronted by such a diplomacy check in combat is to look at the motivations of the attackers. Agreed. I am the really the guy who likes creative solutions and non-combat solutions to things but anyone who insists on applying Diplomacy skill as RAW* is simply asking for trouble, both from DM and fellow players, simply because it is written in such a way that optimized diplomancer would simply end any combat by the time 3rd level comes along, even if it's a 1000 strong horde of Stoneholder Barbarians intent on destroying everything they see or a Mind Flayer who has decided that your brains will make an excellent cuisine if eaten with a bottle of red wine. When there is a reasonable method on arguing an end to combat, such as someone who has been tricked into attacking you, then of course I write diplomatic or bluff option there or take it into account as DM. If the attacker is some half-crazy guy who is beyond rational thought or group of people looking to settle scores with a particular PC (this has happened in our region), then diplomatic options are of course slightly limited or at best "We take this guy and leave rest of you alone". * I have read enough smug messages on Character Optimization boards which suggest wrecking campaigns with diplomancer and changing your DM if he does not let you do it so I am naturally biased towards such individuals. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
amnuxoll 02-11-07, 08:17 AM	This has already been said by others, but Diplomacy has its limits. The bottom line is circumstances. In some circumstances there is no reason even a helpful critter has no choice but to attack you (though he may adjust his tactics to "help"). In most circumstances there is a circumstance penalty (often a hefty one) for "Diplomacizing" someone who has decided to kill you. In this particular case, Sin has a holy symbol of Wee Jas writhing about on his forehead *and* he is "speaking" to the target via invading his mind. In my mind, that's another circumstance penalty (probably about -6 in my book unless talking to someone else who also uses telepathy and/or is friendly toward Wee Jas). All these penalties *stack* because they are different circumstances. As a DM, you have to be careful to balance the needs of all the players. Sin has a maxed out Diplomacy score. As a DM, you should nod to the effort he's put into that and allow Diplomacy to be effective when it can. Certainly, he should slam dunk any encounters that are specifically set out to be Diplomacy encounters. However, if you let it work every time, then you're ruining the fun for other players. Skip understands that. He won't get mad. :AMN:
gomeztoo 02-11-07, 08:20 AM	Not to mention that there are still a lot of people out there who mistake Charm Person/Monster for Dominate. That's simply not the case! Even charm person is not all powerful. You can charm my PC, but how well it works really depends on your own smarts and how well you 'play with others'. If you charm my dragon disciple, for instance, and then continue to fight her friends, expect to be grappled so you'll stop your stupid actions that are surely going to get you killed. Just because you're my friend doesn't mean you can kill people willy-nilly.
astromist 02-11-07, 11:26 AM	What errks me is the Knight dosn't get diplomacy. Come on he is a Knight! :rolleyes:
Sieylianna 02-11-07, 11:45 AM	I was playing at a table with a 10th level Sorcerer/Mindbender who had really maxed out his diplomacy modifier, i.e. 13 ranks, +6synergy, skill focus, 20Cha, greater choker of eloquence, etc. His modifier was about +40. The mindbender class gives him telepathy, so every combat we had he would ask the GM if they spoke a language, and if they did, he would do a hasty diplomacy (-10) to make them friendly. Needless to say he could easily get a roll high enough to shift the attackers attitude to friendly and combat was over. Diplomacy is not a class skill for sorcerers, neither is sense motive or knowledge (Nobility & Royalty). If I were judging the character, I'd take a close look at his skills to see if everything was in order. I'd also ask about mindbender access since that is limited (and the use of its abilities is against the law in some regions). That said, you can't take their stuff if you make them friendly, so the loss of loot will eventually defeat the tactic. Ed
Bold 02-11-07, 01:03 PM	Note also that there are a number of ways that combat can still result even after a successful Diplomacy roll changing the NPC's attitude to "Friendly", or even "Helpful". Perhaps the bad guy says, "Okay, I like you, and you're very persuasive, but I'm still going to have to kill your friends. Don't worry, I'll spare your life. I'll even split the loot with you!" Or maybe: "Sorry, but I still can't let you past this guardhouse since my boss would surely execute me. However, I'll let you go back the way you came and I'll even give you a head start before I raise the alarm..." Or perhaps: "I'll kill you! Haha, just kiddin', meatbag. I'll only knock all of you unconscious and steal your stuff. But for doing you the favor of not eating your brains, you owe me a solid." Of course, if a an über-Diplomat succees on his check, you should reward them somehow. After all, they did spend all the skills/feats/gold on achieving such an astronomical bonus. Maybe NPCs in roleplaying encounter tell them everything they know. Maybe opponents (like in the examples above) refuse to target their new friend, even after combat breaks out. "Hey, man, let's stop fighting each other, and concentrate on disemboweling your barbarian friend together. I told you we could split your friends' loot, didn't I? I love you, man."
Baron_VonWarhammer 02-11-07, 02:01 PM	First, I wanted to clarify that my intention of this post is not to say the DM did a poor job, or that the player I'm talking about is a big cheater, but rather to find out what actual guidelines exist to govern these situations. The only real help we could find at the table was the diplomacy description in the PHB which is what the player kept refering to. The chart indicates a "helpful" NPC will take risks to help you and might protect and heal for you. Some people noted in previous posts penalties for using telepathy and other reasons, and someone indicated the DC to actually make someone defend you would be 60. Are these arbitrary values that they feel are reasonable or are there guideline written somewhere that I can't find? I can tell from previous posts that this is not an original problem, so it seems like there would be some guidelines somewhere, other than "DM common sense." Second, my intent is not to say that diplomacy can never be used to talk your way out of an encounter. I have a character with a decent diplomacy mod and when an encounter starts with something like "Hey what are you doing here?" the diplomacy/bluff gets let loose. However when an encounter starts with save vs. fireball, I think diplomacy is probably over. Finally, I would like to give 2 (not the only 2 either) examples that happened at the table to demonstrate what I'm talking about: Diplomacy: A chimera was flying in to eat us and then one telepathic hasty diplomacy roll later was appologizing for bothering us and flying back to it's lair. Charm Monster: Cast charm monster on an ogre magi then pulled out the monster manual and ran it as a cohort for the rest of the mod, buffing party members with invisibility and attacking who he saw fit as desired. So, are there written guidelines somewhere that can be referenced to help adjudicate these situations? Thanks again The Baron
clik_ml 02-11-07, 02:39 PM	The only real help we could find at the table was the diplomacy description in the PHB which is what the player kept refering to. The chart indicates a "helpful" NPC will take risks to help you and might protect and heal for you. Some people noted in previous posts penalties for using telepathy and other reasons, and someone indicated the DC to actually make someone defend you would be 60. Are these arbitrary values that they feel are reasonable or are there guideline written somewhere that I can't find? ... So, are there written guidelines somewhere that can be referenced to help adjudicate these situations? Thanks again The Baron Everything I posted about diplomacy on its own was drawn from the skill description & table. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm The DC 60 I quoted was the DC to change a hostile enemy to helpful (DC 50 per the table) along with the -10 penalty for doing a hasty check. Just because someone is helpful doesn't mean that they necessarily will be your bodyguard, but if the diplomancer was managing to score some protectors then that is the minimum category required by the descriptions in the diplomacy skill of what people will do. Friendly:[Wishes you well]... Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate Helpful: [Will take risks to help you]... Protect, back up, heal, aid
Mattastrophic 02-11-07, 04:09 PM	Being someone who has a decent-sized Diplomacy check, what really gets to me are DMs who refuse to allow me to do anything with it. What ALSO gets to me are players who just say "I Diplomacize" and roll a d20. What it comes down to is that the Diplomacy skill is a part of the game that cannot be ignored. Experience has also shown me that if someone wishes to expend significant resources into Charisma-based skills, then that is a valid option. Just because the example Mindbender doesn't make attack rolls doesn't mean he is doing something wrong and is a cheesy broken-ass evil powergaming monkey who ruins the game for everyone. And after seeing how the LGCS is being handled, this campaign really really needs a wakeup call in that department. Attack rolls and damage rolls are not the only way to resolve combats. -Matt
Sieylianna 02-11-07, 04:47 PM	Diplomacy: A chimera was flying in to eat us and then one telepathic hasty diplomacy roll later was appologizing for bothering us and flying back to it's lair. A Chimera is a magical beast with an INT of 4. It's barely above an animal and I question whether it could be affected by Diplomacy. Ed
Timlagor 02-11-07, 05:36 PM	If I'd been the DM I'd have insisted that the PCs either feed the Chimera or help it hunt something else. The Ogre Mage would have wanted a share (not necessarily equal) of the loot (you're supposed to be his friend too!) and would have been inclined to stay out of the front lines but could certainly have been persuaded to go along and buff if he didn't have other things to do or an allegiance to the party's other enemies.
garyjohnson 02-11-07, 05:54 PM	A Chimera is a magical beast with an INT of 4. It's barely above an animal and I question whether it could be affected by Diplomacy. If it has an INT of more than 2, it's intelligent and can be negotiated with. In this particular case, chimeras can speak Draconic - the SRD describes it as speaking infrequently, "except when toadying to more powerful creatures". Its priorities may be very different to a more intelligent creature, but I don't see any obvious reason to nerf a character speaking Draconic and using the Diplomacy skill because of that. Cheers, Gary Johnson
solbergb 02-11-07, 06:18 PM	You do have to meet the needs of the monster being diplomacized. Chimera "HUNGRY!" Diplomonster (tailoring his approach to the int 4 monster:__ "Me taste bad and my friends hurt you if you hurt us. Stop attacking" Chimera "But I'm HUNGRY!" "Me give food and you go away " Chimera "Where food?!" (Diplomonster points at the packhorse of the annoying dwarf who ruined his last attempt to diplomacize a monster") "There, once I get rid of bad stuff hard to eat covering it. Real quick!" (to the dwarf) "I'll pay you back later. Get those saddlebags off!" Dwarf "Give him your own horse" Diplmomonster curses the inabilty to use diplomacy on PC's and feeds the Chimera his own horse. It goes away. Everybody's happy. There really isn't much chance you can get the chimera to go away while hungry, unless you intimidate it (they back down to those stronger than them, but usually you'd need diplomacy to stop the fight before you could attempt it - combat intimidate is much weaker) or you bluff it "There's a really yummy bunch of fat defensless cows back the way we came. We taste bad and hurt you. They taste good and don't fight." There aren't any cows back that way. So you'd better be somewhere else once the Chimera realizes it's been fooled. But it is int 4, so it might not take vengeance on you. Just the next set of humanoids it runs into. That would be a funny hook for an encounter actually. Some dumb critter bluffed by a NPC diplomonster that mistakes the PC's for its party.
qstor 02-11-07, 08:47 PM	What errks me is the Knight dosn't get diplomacy. Come on he is a Knight! :rolleyes: No he's a Sorercer 5/Mindbender 5. Mike
qstor 02-11-07, 08:51 PM	This has already been said by others, but Diplomacy has its limits. The bottom line is circumstances. In some circumstances there is no reason even a helpful critter has no choice but to attack you (though he may adjust his tactics to "help"). In most circumstances there is a circumstance penalty (often a hefty one) for "Diplomacizing" someone who has decided to kill you. Right. And some of the Diplomacy rolls came after party members decided to attack some the monsters. Mike
Timlagor 02-12-07, 01:37 PM	Right. And some of the Diplomacy rolls came after party members decided to attack some the monsters. Mike Well that's a huge circumstance penalty.
Cardinal Teplin 02-14-07, 01:33 PM	Moreover, if the diplomacy is taking place after other party members have already attacked, then the monster will be friendly towards you, and only you. Since you're obviously surrounded by homocidal idiots, killing the rest of the party is doing you a favour. In all seriousness, there are no really effective limits to the diplomacy skill in the way the skill is calculated, only in interpreting the results. The best result you can get is a monster who is friendly or helpful to the diplomat, in which case they should be roleplayed as a character with, at best conflicting motivations. A friendly or helpful chain devil, for example, will do it's best to help you. 'Help' in this case may involve all sorts of things you don't want it to do. Like getting rid of all your annoying inhibitions by changing your alignment, or getting you to relocate to a better place, in one of the 9 hells. Heck, if a you make a friend in a mod, you want to change his alignment to something compatible with your own, and take him home with you. (like a cohort favour on an AR) If he just says 'hi' and wanders past you, would you call that friendly? Basically, if you end up with monsters simply obeying the PCs, then you're probably doing something wrong. These are independent creatures with their own motivations, and they have no more reason to tag along with the PCs on their mission then the PCs do to tag along with him and despoil a nearby town.
Rerednaw 02-14-07, 04:04 PM	I think part of the issue lies with how Diplomacy is used. In some circumstances, Bluff may be a better fit. Especially the way many players I have witnessed try to use Diplomacy.
gomeztoo 02-14-07, 04:12 PM	The point with Diplomacy is that it implies honesty - you *want* to be friends - or at least you want nobody get hurt. That is why motivation and argumentation are important. Diplomacy is a powerful skill but it doesn't work as a mere skill roll.
Mortepierre 02-14-07, 06:02 PM	The point with Diplomacy is that it implies honesty - you *want* to be friends - or at least you want nobody get hurt. Critical difference, I agree. If you're trying to fast-talk a monster into not hurting you while lying about your intention, then it's Bluff, not Diplomacy. That said, there are PC out there with as big a score in Bluff as in Diplomacy...
paigeoliver 02-15-07, 07:39 AM	I do believe "The Princess Bride" has a scene in it that shows exactly how two characters who appear to have HELPFUL attitudes towards each other can still be locked in a battle to the death. When Wesley and Inigo dueled each other, they started out with Diplomacy, both moved to helpful, and then still battled because they still had mutually exclusive goals. Wesley left Inigo alive because Wesley's goals did not require Inigo's death. Had Inigo won he would almost certainly have killed Wesley, because Inigo's goals did require Wesley's death. Actually, come to think of it, the Princess Bride had several fights like that. Moving someone to helpful does NOT make them drop their previous alliances, beliefs, goals, or personality. It means they will "Protect, back up, heal, and aid", and all of that will still be tempered by their existing goals, alliances, nature, and duties. That might simply mean they will leave the characters alive if they can, it might mean they will give the characters a chance to walk away without a fight, it does not mean they are going to give up the keys to the kingdom, nor does it mean they will instantly turn against their allies, kind, or cause.
GrahamWills 02-16-07, 05:15 PM	Rushed diplomacy before a fight to stop it starting seems liek a very reasonable thing to attempt. In a fight, people are likely to get hurt, and even if you think you are going to win, you know that two consecutive criticals with that scythe would really spoil your day. So as a GM I'd generally be pretty responsive to any attempt to stalll a fight. As othrs have pointed out, the critical issue is what happens next. The ogre magi is listening to you, with a friendly look on his face (although lookign very worried about the company you keep). If you don't treat him as a friend, you will need to make bluff roles to keep him friendly. Treat him well though, and why shouldn't he come adventuring with you ... assuming he can overcome his dislike of your friends. And, on the other hand, just because soemone is your friend, doesn't you won't kill him. In Ireland's civil war there were families which would eat dinner together and then leave by separate doors, each ging out to fight for what they thought was right. My Lawful Neutral Warmage believes that if he takes a contract to do something, then he *does* it. Killing his friends would be bad, but if it has to happen, it will happen: "You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you"