Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 01-21-07, 01:54 PM	How and when do u call for a disbelief roll? Do you even get one w/o a reason to disbelieve? for instance, if an evil wizard used a silent image of a wall to hide the corridor he escpaed down making you turn right instead of left do you get to try and disbelieve? I'm just asking when disbelief should be rolled
Some_call_me_Tim 01-21-07, 04:54 PM	I'm just asking when disbelief should be rolled Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief) Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. So, in your case they would not get a saving throw at all as they didn't interact with it in any meaningful way. If they stop to search the area (for footprints, secret doors or the like) then they get a saving throw. If one of the party notices the illusion he can tell the others, who then get a second saving throw with a +4 bonus. If they still fail and the one who found the illusion simply walks through the solid wall then they realize it is an illusion no saving throw needed.
zigspatty 01-21-07, 05:06 PM	There is no such thing as a "disbelief roll" in 3.5. If a character interacts with an illusion or studies it carefully, then he gets to make a saving throw. So, the baddie makes an illusory wall so that the corridor seems to have an opening only to the right instead of straight ahead and to the right. The PCs come along. If they stop to carefully examine the corridor, you can give whomever is examining them a saving throw to see if they notice that something is amiss with the left wall. Making the save means they disbelieve. Failing it means that it still looks like what it appeared. If two pcs squeeze into a single square (say to let the rogue get by the dwarf) so that they're likely to touch/interact with that wall, then they get a saving throw. When the rogue shouts "Hey, my shoulder went through the wall, it must be an illusion!" then everyone checking it out gets a +4. If they watch the rogue walk through the wall, then it's obvious, and no saves are necessary (unless he's an Earth Dreamer and earth glides through them all the time....) Illusions can be powerful. If the PCs just race on through without stopping, they don't even get a save - there's no chance to examine or interact. But that's balanced by how easy it is to get through them if even one PC successfully saves. Patty
The_Jester 01-21-07, 05:55 PM	The illusion questions that bugs me are: * If an illusion is tactile, can you touch it? Can you walk across an illusionary bridge as long as you voluntarily fail the will save? * If you encounter an illusionary Medusa and fail your will save, do you believe you've been turned to stone?
awroe 01-21-07, 06:16 PM	* If you encounter an illusionary Medusa and fail your will save, do you believe you've been turned to stone? Even better, if you encounter a real Medusa can you put an illusionary bucket over your head that you voluntarily fail the save with so you don't see it? Or create an illusionary mirror to use while fighting? AW.
Britt 01-21-07, 06:19 PM	One of my pet peeves is when players say "I attempt to disbelieve." There is no such thing in 3rd edition. You either believe it or you don't.
Japangirl 01-21-07, 07:05 PM	One of my pet peeves is when players say "I attempt to disbelieve." There is no such thing in 3rd edition. You either believe it or you don't. The joys of a poor will save. I stab it, thus interacting with it. I fail the will save and believe it's real. Someone else realizes it's fake, and says so. I still fail the will save and continue attacking the illusion . . . I hate being a rogue sometimes.
zigspatty 01-21-07, 07:19 PM	* If an illusion is tactile, can you touch it? Can you walk across an illusionary bridge as long as you voluntarily fail the will save? You can touch it. It feels like a bridge. (You failed your save.) You begin to walk out on it. Step one feels solid (you're standing on the rocks "supporting" the bridge) Step two is a doozy, though. It'll become obvious as you fall through that the bridge is illusory. With luck, you'll get a reflex save or dex check to grab the edge before you plumment into the raging river below. * If you encounter an illusionary Medusa and fail your will save, do you believe you've been turned to stone? No. You believe that you managed to avert your gaze in time so that she didn't turn you into stone THIS round. You figure you'd better shut your eyes and fight blind next round or you'll be stoned for sure. Patty
Samwise 01-21-07, 07:35 PM	/me disbelieves that he can't disbelieve :D
zigspatty 01-21-07, 07:42 PM	Even better, if you encounter a real Medusa can you put an illusionary bucket over your head that you voluntarily fail the save with so you don't see it? Because you created it, you KNOW it's not real and can automatically see through it. Besides, outrageous speculation aside, there are NO Illusion spells that have a tactile component. If someone else creates it, as soon as your hands grasp the bucket to pull it over your head, you notice that you don't feel the bucket and automatically have its illusory nature revealed. Or create an illusionary mirror to use while fighting? Except that it's not really a mirror, so its images may have zero relation to the actual reality that you're fighting. (I guess you're assuming your wizard friend is holding up a large mirror pulled from his bag of holding for you to gaze into?) As a DM, I'd treat it like averting your gaze. Patty
Mommy was an Orc 01-21-07, 07:52 PM	The illusion questions that bugs me are: * If an illusion is tactile, can you touch it? Can you walk across an illusionary bridge as long as you voluntarily fail the will save? * If you encounter an illusionary Medusa and fail your will save, do you believe you've been turned to stone? It depends on the nature of the illusion: Figment of a Medusa - looks like one. What you believe is dependent on you. Figments are generally better to be used in a way that makes the viewer think they lucked out. i.e. fearsome creature who happens to miss is much more effective. Figments don't support weight. A Phantasm or Glamour might convince you that it is a real Medusa. Phantasmal Killer as an example. But the bridge is just in your mind. You fall like a rock and you may or may not be aware of doing so depending on the specific effects. A Shadow Medusa or Bridge can have real effects. A Shadow Wall of Stone used as a bridge won't support the full weight a normal wall would. A Shadow Medusa can actually turn you into stone.
Mommy was an Orc 01-21-07, 07:59 PM	Because you created it, you KNOW it's not real and can automatically see through it. Besides, outrageous speculation aside, there are NO Illusion spells that have a tactile component. If someone else creates it, as soon as your hands grasp the bucket to pull it over your head, you notice that you don't feel the bucket and automatically have its illusory nature revealed. Sure there are - Shadow Conjuration can be used to create Summon Monster III as an example. Even if you make your save, they can still be felt. Phantasm can have a tactile component - it can convince you that it has an apparent tactile one. Glamers have tactile - Mirage Arcana as an example.
zigspatty 01-21-07, 08:08 PM	Sorry. Forgot about those shadow conjuration spells. Guess I was thinking they were conjurations... Mommy is right. :embarrass Patty
Mommy was an Orc 01-21-07, 08:14 PM	Sorry. Forgot about those shadow conjuration spells. Guess I was thinking they were conjurations... Mommy is right. :embarrass Patty No problem - the various Shadow spells are my favorite to pick when my character's a Sorcerer. Completely blew up my 1st character into a million pieces when I realized that Shadow magic is considered illegal in Keoland and therefore Shadowcraft Mage was also illegal.
Stormydoom 01-21-07, 08:59 PM	The joys of a poor will save. I stab it, thus interacting with it. I fail the will save and believe it's real. Someone else realizes it's fake, and says so. I still fail the will save and continue attacking the illusion . . . I hate being a rogue sometimes. My fighter keeps failing will saves to disbelieve illusions (+4 will at apl 10) and it's funny to see my fighter keep attacking the nonexistent enemies when everyone else is still yelling "It doesn't exist".
JohnduBois 01-21-07, 09:43 PM	This is why gnome illusionist is amazing... Last night at an interactive, my PC had the rest of the party swinging at illusionary crocodiles (originally designed to distract orcs and gnolls) for many rounds after the combat ended... Nobody could make their Will saves, or figure out why the crocs were all ignoring the gnome...
LGMoses 01-21-07, 10:39 PM	One of my pet peeves is when players say "I attempt to disbelieve." There is no such thing in 3rd edition. You either believe it or you don't. "Britt didn't say that, that post does not exist." :noway:
LGMoses 01-21-07, 10:43 PM	When you make the will save to disbelieve an illusion such as the Silent Image wall, does it mean that you "know" in your head it is just an illusion but the image is still there blocking vision? Or does it mean that the image "physically" dissipates revealing the passage?
The_Jester 01-21-07, 11:24 PM	It depends on the nature of the illusion: Figment of a Medusa - looks like one. What you believe is dependent on you. Figments are generally better to be used in a way that makes the viewer think they lucked out. i.e. fearsome creature who happens to miss is much more effective. Figments don't support weight. A Phantasm or Glamour might convince you that it is a real Medusa. Phantasmal Killer as an example. But the bridge is just in your mind. You fall like a rock and you may or may not be aware of doing so depending on the specific effects. A Shadow Medusa or Bridge can have real effects. A Shadow Wall of Stone used as a bridge won't support the full weight a normal wall would. A Shadow Medusa can actually turn you into stone. But Shadow Conjuration only acts like a summon monster spell pulling monsters from said list. Last I checked "Medusa" ain't on it. ... Thank Odin.
zigspatty 01-22-07, 12:05 AM	When you make the will save to disbelieve an illusion such as the Silent Image wall, does it mean that you "know" in your head it is just an illusion but the image is still there blocking vision? Or does it mean that the image "physically" dissipates revealing the passage? From the SRD... A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. I've seen this played a variety of ways, depending on circumstances. Since the illusion continues for others who don't make a save, I'd say that it's rather like looking through a reflection in glass - you can still see the illusion but you know how to see through it. (Or maybe it's like taking off your red/blue glasses in the 3-D movie?) Most of the time, it's not really important because your next step is to go through the wall to get the caster who must be concentrating nearby. I've also seen them ruled as concealment. You can see through, but there's still some obscurement of what's behind. Some illusion spells specify what happens when you save or destroy an image (mirror images pop when hit) Patty
Reska 01-22-07, 01:36 AM	One of my favorite "disbelieving" encounters was at last year's Winter Fantasy. One specific module had a nice illusory terrain (not the spell, just a big illusion). When someone would interact with said illusion, I pulled them off to the side (after making their saving throw), and explained what it was. Then had them react accordingly. This could either be "Hey, it's an illusion!" (which at least one person did...to no enjoyment from me) to the best one where the guy who made his save threw the half-orc who didn't into the "moat"...the half-orc then started swimming around...in dirt. Much laughs and enjoyment by all....he never did make his save even after all the party members went on through. And before you say "But he would have automatically!", remember, if it's fun for the players, what's the harm? Especially since it was only a deterrent factor, and not something that was going to change the entire module or any other encounters.... --Reska Hoping that the mod he runs this year is equally as fun...
Samwise 01-22-07, 01:49 PM	Some of the most fun I had was back in 2001 with Never Mined. The kobold sends an image of a crazed half-dragon "thing" to tear up the PCs. Everyone fails their saves but refuse to flee (unless they also fail a save versus cause fear that is) and so the critter starts attacking. I make a few random rolls, ask the player for a will save, then announce to the others "OK, it comes up, bites, claws, and . . . rips him to shreds and stomps on the pieces. Next!" The players asks me if he's dead and I tell him directly that he's not, it's just everyone else seems to think he is. I'd go through an entire party, with everyone waiting to get torn to pieces, failing all their saves when they attack it, it was great. And then one evil player put up an illusion of the other wall in front of the arrow slits the kobold was using so the PCs could walk down without any more harasmment. Illusion vs illusion! I loved that adventure. Especially the bunnies. :D
Madfox11 01-23-07, 08:04 AM	Unless that illusion is able to make the "dead" PC invisible the others would still see the corpse walking around. What is more, once cast most illusion spell cannot create new images, so they cannot make the PC look wounded either. The only time I saw an Illusion used quiet well by showing a monster that was not there was when one monster was quiet real and going through the PCs at that side of the cliff as a knife through butter. The illusionary monster on the other side though just missed the PCs (one of the benefits of a DM rolling behind a screen) and luckily enough the PCs managed to roll crap for two rounds on a row (both for the Will saving throws and the to-hit rolls). The PCs were seriously considering surrendering, until in the third round they finally realized it was an illusion. Illusions are really difficult to deal with as a DM, and you should always be very careful not too make them either too powerful or too weak. I don't there are any hard and fast rules, but I usually look at the level of the Illusion used and compare it to what real spells of the same level can do to decide when a character interacts with it or when that interaction is almost automatic.
LGMoses 01-24-07, 12:00 AM	I usually combine how they use it with enemy int/magical awareness and go from there. Also, when u detect magic, illusions glow like xmas trees rite?
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 12:44 AM	I usually combine how they use it with enemy int/magical awareness and go from there. Also, when u detect magic, illusions glow like xmas trees rite? After 3 rounds, they do. Until you discover location, you just know there's magic in the area.
Akhamshyy 01-24-07, 05:09 PM	Hmmm, I wish we could dis-believe. All the mages stuck in zones of silence would love to be able to dis-believe it too.
KarmaInferno 01-31-07, 07:32 PM	I've ended a few encounters before they even began with my Church Inquisitor. An automatic Will save to see through damn near any illusion, on a class that likely has VERY good will save bonuses... let's just say the PC in question hasn't had any problems with those greater invisible rogues that other folks have complained bitterly about. It's gotten to the point where I hand the DM a card at the beginning of the round letting him know that I have that ability, so he can quietly adjust without being surprised (which can really throw some people off and impact on their judging quality). Also, I've bitten my lip and played dumb at the behest of DMs on a couple of occasions, to allow the table to actually play the event. Nothing worse than seeing a whole table of folks get a itemless AR because the bad guy was revealed in encounter one. So, occasionally I get delayed or distracted so I never see the illusion. So there is the other end of the "can't make a save to disbelieve ever" spectrum. -karma