Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zoinks69 02-27-07, 01:33 PM	I didn't see this posted previously -- Can you use Divine Ward in conjunction with a metamagic rod of Chain to effectively chain a touch spell?
AnexCDC 02-27-07, 01:42 PM	Its kinda a gray area. Divine Ward unlike most other methods of making touch spells in to reach spells does explicitly say that the range becomes short. This does make it into a legit target for chain, but the question becomes when the range changes and when the rods affect should take place. I do not have my books on me atm, but I am guessing it will fall into one of two situations: first, that there is a specific order and it works or doesn't work; second, the order is not specific resulting in a chicken or egg situation.
bitznarf 02-27-07, 03:47 PM	Its kinda a gray area. Divine Ward unlike most other methods of making touch spells in to reach spells does explicitly say that the range becomes short. This does make it into a legit target for chain, but the question becomes when the range changes and when the rods affect should take place. I do not have my books on me atm, but I am guessing it will fall into one of two situations: first, that there is a specific order and it works or doesn't work; second, the order is not specific resulting in a chicken or egg situation. A third way to look at it is similar to the FAQ regarding practiced spellcaster and wild mage: you apply them in the order most beneficial to the PC (or NPC) who has the feat (or special ability).
Mattastrophic 02-27-07, 04:05 PM	Divine Ward specifically tells us that the spell cast must only have one target. Thus, no Chaining. -Matt
bitznarf 02-27-07, 04:22 PM	Darn. Ah well, I don't have my books with me so I couldn't look it up.
KarmaInferno 02-27-07, 04:35 PM	Divine Ward specifically tells us that the spell cast must only have one target. Thus, no Chaining. -Matt Here's the rub. What order do you apply the effects? If you apply Divine Ward first, it's a single target spell. It does not become multi-target til after the Chain Spell rod is applied. As pointed out, the FAQ has stated in a similar case that effects are applied in the most beneficial manner to the user. -karma
Mattastrophic 02-27-07, 05:22 PM	Here's the rub. What order do you apply the effects? If you apply Divine Ward first, it's a single target spell. It does not become multi-target til after the Chain Spell rod is applied. As pointed out, the FAQ has stated in a similar case that effects are applied in the most beneficial manner to the user. I like where this is going. Also, we know we have to apply Divine Ward first, as Chain Spell can't be applied to mere (pre-Ward) Touch range spells. I'll look into it. -Matt's nerfed cohort may find a new purpose!
Timlagor 02-27-07, 05:24 PM	It is a Divine Ward spell all the time. There is no order for effects in D&D.
KarmaInferno 02-27-07, 05:27 PM	From the D&D FAQ: As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature. -karma
JJeff 02-27-07, 07:45 PM	So the question now is whether once you apply China Spell to the spell that you are casting through the Divine Ward, it stops becoming a single target spell and the Divine Ward fails. Like you suddenly losing a pre-req that you once had. I mean, the Prac Spellcaster + Wild Mage is merely a timing thing, when both effects don't prevent the other from happening, but here, once the spell is Chained, it isn't a legal target for the Divine Ward. Even though the Divine Ward is applied first, the "Single Target" thing is like a pre-req, right? Once you fails to meet the criteria, it fails. Or do spell adjustments not work that way? I'm quite sure that I can't use Searing Spell and Energy Substitution (Acid) on a Fireball together and claim that the Searing Spell effects still apply and a creature with both Acid AND Fire immunity still takes damage, right?
pedr 02-27-07, 07:53 PM	I've not stopped to think about it too much, but my instinctive reaction is that even if I'd let you use this trick, I certainly wouldn't let you chain it to someone you weren't attuned to - and I might require the expenditure of a turn attempt for each person. That's if I allowed it at all! (And I've just picked up the feat for my RSoP, and I think I'd consider this too cheesy to try!)
Munkwunk 02-27-07, 08:40 PM	Divine Ward states: "...if you target the warded creature and only the warded creature." (Emphasis mine.) It is pretty clear that the intent is to prevent chaining a Divine Ward spell. If intent just isn't good enough for you, though... From d20srd.org: Target or Targets Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. Emphasis mine. In this case, you cast the spell atone target and then immediately activate the Chain rod to cause the spell to arc to multiple targets. This is a case where the obvious intent of the spell is broken by the way the Chain rod is used (applying itself to any spell with a range greater than Touch, which the Divine Ward spell now has) in conjunction with a FAQ ruling stating that you get to choose how you apply multiple benefits. This is something that was never intended to work and shouldn't work (this emulates a high-level, prestige-class specific ability) but does work due to multiple effects stacking in which ever order you please. THe biggest problem is with the above-quoted section: "You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell." This means that you may choose when you wish to select your target. Once the spell has been cast on a single target (satisfying the Divine Ward restriction) the Chain rod can kick in as a use-activated ability to immediately cause the spell to arc to multiple targets. I would expect several judges to rule against this, stating that you can't activate the Chain rod after the spell has been completed, but nothing in the Metamagic Rod description suggests that this is the case and nothing in the Chain Spell description suggests that the feat has to be applied before completion of the spell and the target selection. I would expect table variation on this one no matter how much you favor the letter of the rule over the intent, though.
Mattastrophic 02-28-07, 01:09 AM	Heh... Chain Raise Dead... -Matt
zoinks69 02-28-07, 01:26 AM	Appreciate everyone's input. I was trying to get feedback both as player and judge (so even if I personally didn't try to use it, I'd have some ammo for or against someone else trying it). On the plus side, I've really not seen too much access to Chain Rods (the one or two I've seen have been lessers). Still, the potential for abuse (in other words, getting rid of DMM merely made another avenue appear...). There seem to be arguments both ways. Hopefully this will initiate things to the point where a solid ruling comes down (hey, I can dream) :)