Diving Hippogriffs Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diving Hippogriffs Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
andrew.pierson
01-10-07, 01:07 PM At a recent convention, a friend and I were introduced to the concept of Hippogriff Bombing. Basically, you summon a Hippogriff and it dives, which deals double damage. The person introducing it to us said that they can use both claws. This is supported by the text in the Hippogriff entry that says:

"Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs."

This implies two attacks. Furthermore, the text about diving says:

"A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage."

From these you might think that multiple attacks are possible. But if you look up the text for charging, it states that:

"After moving, you may make a single melee attack."

Finally compare the Hippogriff with the Griffon entry that explains what its pounce feat does:

"If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks."

I think it is clear that hippogriffs get one attack at double damage when they dive. What do you think? Do you know of any sources that contradict this logic?

Thanks,
Andy
LachlarlanIII
01-10-07, 01:20 PM Based on the RAW for charging/diving charge, the Hippogryph would only get one attack.

If the Hippogryph had Pounce (like the Gryphon does) it would get all of its attacks on a charge.
Eagle Prince
01-10-07, 01:31 PM I don't know, full attack and charge are two different kinds of actions. You can make 1 attack before actually declaring a full attack. So I think with pounce, you make a charge (w/ charge attack), then get the rest of your attacks using pounce/full attack action. That would mean only your first attack would get charge bonuses (like the +2 to hit and multipliers for dive/lance, etc). If the ability just said like, you get a second attack at the end of your charge, then they'd both get the charge bonus, but if you get the extra attacks by taking full attack action at the end of a charge, then I don't see getting the charge bonuses on all the attacks.
kenobi65
01-10-07, 03:09 PM I just want to say that "Diving Hippogriffs" would make an excellent name for a rock band.
clannagh
01-11-07, 12:33 AM I don't know, full attack and charge are two different kinds of actions. You can make 1 attack before actually declaring a full attack. So I think with pounce, you make a charge (w/ charge attack), then get the rest of your attacks using pounce/full attack action. That would mean only your first attack would get charge bonuses (like the +2 to hit and multipliers for dive/lance, etc). If the ability just said like, you get a second attack at the end of your charge, then they'd both get the charge bonus, but if you get the extra attacks by taking full attack action at the end of a charge, then I don't see getting the charge bonuses on all the attacks.

Except a charge is a full round action unless its the surpise round when you only get one action any way.

So sorry NO .. without pounce you cannot get a full round of attacks when you charge. You get double damage and just a single attack like anything else that is charging.

In fact with a fly speed of "average" the hippogriff cannot hover either . To get both claw attacks it needs to land.

It does have wingover but unless it is animal companian that advances hit die and takes fly by attack as a 3/6/9 feat .. wingover is not a huge advantage. In reality I would give it improved flight if it had a feat anyway.
Japangirl
01-11-07, 12:45 AM On an off note, charging pouncing huge Griffons with Diving Charge (is that what it's called? Increase damage dice when charging) are kind of scary.
clannagh
01-11-07, 12:51 AM just clarify that last post .. hippogriffs have NOT got pounce and hence cannot get more than one attack on the charge (because a charge is a full round action)
ShinAkuma2
01-11-07, 03:54 PM Think of it this way:

They "strike with their clawed forelegs", which is why they hit for double damage.

Simple, elegant, flavourful. Like a nice cup of Tweek's coffee...Coffee that you can depend on, just as a sweater that gets warmer with age.
Eagle Prince
01-11-07, 05:19 PM Except a charge is a full round action unless its the surpise round when you only get one action any way.

So sorry NO .. without pounce you cannot get a full round of attacks when you charge. You get double damage and just a single attack like anything else that is charging.

In fact with a fly speed of "average" the hippogriff cannot hover either . To get both claw attacks it needs to land.

It does have wingover but unless it is animal companian that advances hit die and takes fly by attack as a 3/6/9 feat .. wingover is not a huge advantage. In reality I would give it improved flight if it had a feat anyway.

I agree, a standard hippogriff can't get in more than one attack while flying. I was talking about the gripphon, that can dive and still make a full attack, in which case I think only the first attack would get the +2 to hit and x2 damage. Charge and full attack are both full-round actions, but still different types of actions. No different really then why you couldn't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run.
clannagh
01-11-07, 05:29 PM I agree, a standard hippogriff can't get in more than one attack while flying. I was talking about the gripphon, that can dive and still make a full attack, in which case I think only the first attack would get the +2 to hit and x2 damage. Charge and full attack are both full-round actions, but still different types of actions. No different really then why you couldn't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run.

OK that makes sense ..

As far as combining diving attack double damage with pounce .. i am sitting on the fence on that one .. it seems to be a DM call situation though the default is probably to do double damage on all attacks. Clearly pounce doesnt allow bite attacks with a diving charge though.
andrew.pierson
01-12-07, 11:08 AM Thanks everyone! The Hippogriff issue is clear:
On a dive, the hippogriff gets a single attack.
I'm still on the fence about whether the Griffon should get a +2 to Hit and x2 damage for all its diving pounce attacks. But that... is another thread.
_m_
01-14-07, 11:31 PM But that... is another thread.

well if you have all ur questions from this thread covered, it may as well just roll into a 2xdmg griphon dive pounce thread anyway.
andrew.pierson
01-15-07, 11:34 AM well if you have all ur questions from this thread covered, it may as well just roll into a 2xdmg griphon dive pounce thread anyway.

I already started the griffon diving pounce thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770912

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
andrew.pierson 01-10-07, 01:07 PM	At a recent convention, a friend and I were introduced to the concept of Hippogriff Bombing. Basically, you summon a Hippogriff and it dives, which deals double damage. The person introducing it to us said that they can use both claws. This is supported by the text in the Hippogriff entry that says: "Hippogriffs dive at their prey and strike with their clawed forelegs." This implies two attacks. Furthermore, the text about diving says: "A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage." From these you might think that multiple attacks are possible. But if you look up the text for charging, it states that: "After moving, you may make a single melee attack." Finally compare the Hippogriff with the Griffon entry that explains what its pounce feat does: "If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks." I think it is clear that hippogriffs get one attack at double damage when they dive. What do you think? Do you know of any sources that contradict this logic? Thanks, Andy
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 01:20 PM	Based on the RAW for charging/diving charge, the Hippogryph would only get one attack. If the Hippogryph had Pounce (like the Gryphon does) it would get all of its attacks on a charge.
Eagle Prince 01-10-07, 01:31 PM	I don't know, full attack and charge are two different kinds of actions. You can make 1 attack before actually declaring a full attack. So I think with pounce, you make a charge (w/ charge attack), then get the rest of your attacks using pounce/full attack action. That would mean only your first attack would get charge bonuses (like the +2 to hit and multipliers for dive/lance, etc). If the ability just said like, you get a second attack at the end of your charge, then they'd both get the charge bonus, but if you get the extra attacks by taking full attack action at the end of a charge, then I don't see getting the charge bonuses on all the attacks.
kenobi65 01-10-07, 03:09 PM	I just want to say that "Diving Hippogriffs" would make an excellent name for a rock band.
clannagh 01-11-07, 12:33 AM	I don't know, full attack and charge are two different kinds of actions. You can make 1 attack before actually declaring a full attack. So I think with pounce, you make a charge (w/ charge attack), then get the rest of your attacks using pounce/full attack action. That would mean only your first attack would get charge bonuses (like the +2 to hit and multipliers for dive/lance, etc). If the ability just said like, you get a second attack at the end of your charge, then they'd both get the charge bonus, but if you get the extra attacks by taking full attack action at the end of a charge, then I don't see getting the charge bonuses on all the attacks. Except a charge is a full round action unless its the surpise round when you only get one action any way. So sorry NO .. without pounce you cannot get a full round of attacks when you charge. You get double damage and just a single attack like anything else that is charging. In fact with a fly speed of "average" the hippogriff cannot hover either . To get both claw attacks it needs to land. It does have wingover but unless it is animal companian that advances hit die and takes fly by attack as a 3/6/9 feat .. wingover is not a huge advantage. In reality I would give it improved flight if it had a feat anyway.
Japangirl 01-11-07, 12:45 AM	On an off note, charging pouncing huge Griffons with Diving Charge (is that what it's called? Increase damage dice when charging) are kind of scary.
clannagh 01-11-07, 12:51 AM	just clarify that last post .. hippogriffs have NOT got pounce and hence cannot get more than one attack on the charge (because a charge is a full round action)
ShinAkuma2 01-11-07, 03:54 PM	Think of it this way: They "strike with their clawed forelegs", which is why they hit for double damage. Simple, elegant, flavourful. Like a nice cup of Tweek's coffee...Coffee that you can depend on, just as a sweater that gets warmer with age.
Eagle Prince 01-11-07, 05:19 PM	Except a charge is a full round action unless its the surpise round when you only get one action any way. So sorry NO .. without pounce you cannot get a full round of attacks when you charge. You get double damage and just a single attack like anything else that is charging. In fact with a fly speed of "average" the hippogriff cannot hover either . To get both claw attacks it needs to land. It does have wingover but unless it is animal companian that advances hit die and takes fly by attack as a 3/6/9 feat .. wingover is not a huge advantage. In reality I would give it improved flight if it had a feat anyway. I agree, a standard hippogriff can't get in more than one attack while flying. I was talking about the gripphon, that can dive and still make a full attack, in which case I think only the first attack would get the +2 to hit and x2 damage. Charge and full attack are both full-round actions, but still different types of actions. No different really then why you couldn't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run.
clannagh 01-11-07, 05:29 PM	I agree, a standard hippogriff can't get in more than one attack while flying. I was talking about the gripphon, that can dive and still make a full attack, in which case I think only the first attack would get the +2 to hit and x2 damage. Charge and full attack are both full-round actions, but still different types of actions. No different really then why you couldn't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run. OK that makes sense .. As far as combining diving attack double damage with pounce .. i am sitting on the fence on that one .. it seems to be a DM call situation though the default is probably to do double damage on all attacks. Clearly pounce doesnt allow bite attacks with a diving charge though.
andrew.pierson 01-12-07, 11:08 AM	Thanks everyone! The Hippogriff issue is clear: On a dive, the hippogriff gets a single attack. I'm still on the fence about whether the Griffon should get a +2 to Hit and x2 damage for all its diving pounce attacks. But that... is another thread.
_m_ 01-14-07, 11:31 PM	But that... is another thread. well if you have all ur questions from this thread covered, it may as well just roll into a 2xdmg griphon dive pounce thread anyway.
andrew.pierson 01-15-07, 11:34 AM	well if you have all ur questions from this thread covered, it may as well just roll into a 2xdmg griphon dive pounce thread anyway. I already started the griffon diving pounce thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770912