Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Genghis Cohen 02-26-07, 08:51 PM	How have DMs dealt with illegal builds from PCs? What are the best ways to deal with this when it happens?
King Kashue 02-26-07, 08:56 PM	"Illegal" as in "not meeting the requirements for PrCs or Feats"? If that's what you mean, the quick fix is: anything they don't meet the requirement for, they don't have. They have the BAB, HP, etc from the class, but no other benefits. The long fix is: you require them to rebuild their character and note it on the AR (as it should have been when they first took the classes)...
Genghis Cohen 02-26-07, 09:15 PM	How about a Neutral Pious Templar of a Lawful Neutral deity so that rage can be used?
kegdrainer 02-26-07, 09:29 PM	Unless there is something else wrong with the build, it should work. The feat needed for PT allows the player to be with in one step of the diety. In this case, they are, LN->N. Since they are not lawful, they can still rage.
Howie23 02-26-07, 09:46 PM	How about a Neutral Pious Templar of a Lawful Neutral deity so that rage can be used? Assume it is a mistake unless he demonstrates otherwise. It is likely that he doesn't realize that he has an issue (PT cannot be neutral unless the deity is neutral, Deities Doc, p.2). The general idea when someone has made a mistake is to fix it with minimum fuss and move on. He can either change alignment to LN or LG, or choose to stay neutral voluntarily, and effectively be in gross violation (no spells or class abilities until he atones). If he does know, is professing to be able to use PT abilities, and isn't doing anything to fix it, then it starts to sound like cheating under the RPGA infraction guidelines and LGCS Troubleshooting. David
Howie23 02-26-07, 09:47 PM	Unless there is something else wrong with the build, it should work. The feat needed for PT allows the player to be with in one step of the diety. In this case, they are, LN->N. Since they are not lawful, they can still rage. Pious Templar must follow the cleric/favored soul requirements. The PC cannot be neutral unless the diety is neutral. David
JamesMaissen 02-27-07, 07:40 AM	How have DMs dealt with illegal builds from PCs? What are the best ways to deal with this when it happens? The first thing you have to do is determine if you are dealing with a grey area of the rules or something that is clear cut. If it is grey then that is a problem with the living campaign's need to not make core rules decisions. While laudable in the main, it is here that suffers for it. If it is something that you cannot accept, explain to the player as diplomatically as possible the problem you are having and come to an agreement. Most likely this will be them playing a different character or at a different table. If it is not grey then explain it to them and help the work through it. Have them correct the character if it's minor, or pile on to your overworked triad if it is not. The goal here is to provide a happy playing experience for everyone. Helping the later case smoothly will prevent them future grief from those less capable of handling such issues. The former case is more problematic and should be treated with understanding that (atleast imho) it is a campaign weak spot and all efforts should be made to assuage bad feelngs engendered by it, James
kegdrainer 02-27-07, 07:58 AM	Pious Templar must follow the cleric/favored soul requirements. The PC cannot be neutral unless the diety is neutral. David The Doc could be better better worded. Unless you look back four points, you would miss it. Cleric/Favored Soul and others that serve a specific diety, can not be neutral unless its dieties alignment is also neutral, might be better. I guess that was how they made the mistake.:confused: What diety did the player take?
Genghis Cohen 02-27-07, 08:18 PM	The Doc could be better better worded. Unless you look back four points, you would miss it. Cleric/Favored Soul and others that serve a specific diety, can not be neutral unless its dieties alignment is also neutral, might be better. I guess that was how they made the mistake.:confused: What diety did the player take?I agree that the first paragraph is easy to skip over. Perhaps it should be in a different color, like red, to call attention to it. I don't want to go into the specifics of the character's build. I haven't DMed the character yet, but will in the near future. Knowing that I would be facing this, I contacted my Triad, without mentioning the player's name, and explained the situation. A potential solution was suggested. I then spoke with the player and explained in detail the problem. After he read the current deities document (he was using v. 1.3,) he agreed with me. I acted as a sounding board for him to develop possible solutions. He eventually decided to follow his character's nature, and chose an alternitive that is in line with a Triad member's suggestion. His character won't be raging. I wasn't comfortable going through all of this, but I'm glad that we were able to resolve it before we sat down to play.
Mithrus 03-02-07, 12:02 AM	Pious Templar must follow the cleric/favored soul requirements. The PC cannot be neutral unless the diety is neutral. David Ok, this has me concerned. I have a character that is currently Lawful Good, and wants to become a PT of Ehlonna. Am I understanding things correctly in that he would have to change his alignment to Neutral Good to match Ehlonna in order to do so? Update: Never mind, the rule in question is in regards to true neutral, which should have been stated as such instead of just "neutral".
LachlarlanIII 03-02-07, 12:04 AM	Ok, this has me concerned. I have a character that is currently Lawful Good, and wants to become a PT of Ehlonna. Am I understanding things correctly in that he would have to change his alignment to Neutral Good to match Ehlonna in order to do so? The whole nutrality thing is only for worshippers of deitys that are True Neutral. Ehlonna is Neutral Good if I recall correctly, so you shouldn't have any problem playing a Lawful Good Pious Templar that worships her.
ithardin 03-02-07, 12:27 PM	Anyone ever met in-game a Pious Templar who actually did (or RPed) what the description of Pious Templar in Complete Divine does? Or had more then a couple levels in it?
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 12:36 PM	Anyone ever met in-game a Pious Templar who actually did (or RPed) what the description of Pious Templar in Complete Divine does? Or had more then a couple levels in it? My Pious Templar belongs to a metaorg which is basically a non-city sheriff. He patrols around a Temple of Ehlonna for 4 TUs a year as a result and goes out on missions. He'll eventually have 4 levels in it and it will very likely be his only prestige class.
ZX670 03-02-07, 02:47 PM	Anyone ever met in-game a Pious Templar who actually did (or RPed) what the description of Pious Templar in Complete Divine does? Or had more then a couple levels in it? Yeah, I play regularly with a current 4 PT/11 Cleric of Clangeddin Silverbeard. He sometimes RPs that the TU's he spends with the Dwarven Meta he is a member of are spent guarding the Temple of Silverbeard there, etc.
King Kashue 03-02-07, 09:01 PM	Anyone ever met in-game a Pious Templar who actually did (or RPed) what the description of Pious Templar in Complete Divine does? Or had more then a couple levels in it? Well, my character who is going for it is a Nyrond character (by dint of Geography) who's Baklunish and worships Azor'alq. I'm planning a split between PT and Shining Blade. Since there aren't many temples of Azor'alq in Nyrond, I think of him more in the "campaigning to attack foes" part of the description. If I get a chance to play some when I'm in France (Ekbir) or if I can get to Western CA (Zeif) or Quebec (Tusmit), I'm hoping to run into some actual temples :D
Drezden 03-04-07, 12:20 AM	Hey, the best part was that even without the ability to rage the LN Templar was still very effective doing 55+ a hit when using his Smite ability. Although he didn't get to go that much before the other power gamers at the table killed everything. Fun all the way around. :) Thanks for DMing Genghis. Daren I agree that the first paragraph is easy to skip over. Perhaps it should be in a different color, like red, to call attention to it. I don't want to go into the specifics of the character's build. I haven't DMed the character yet, but will in the near future. Knowing that I would be facing this, I contacted my Triad, without mentioning the player's name, and explained the situation. A potential solution was suggested. I then spoke with the player and explained in detail the problem. After he read the current deities document (he was using v. 1.3,) he agreed with me. I acted as a sounding board for him to develop possible solutions. He eventually decided to follow his character's nature, and chose an alternitive that is in line with a Triad member's suggestion. His character won't be raging. I wasn't comfortable going through all of this, but I'm glad that we were able to resolve it before we sat down to play.
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 12:31 AM	Hey, the best part was that even without the ability to rage the LN Templar was still very effective doing 55+ a hit when using his Smite ability. Although he didn't get to go that much before the other power gamers at the table killed everything. Fun all the way around. :) Thanks for DMing Genghis. Daren Hmm...interesting...one of the players of that particular group had another problem with alignment - we were talking before GenCon and I pointed out that he couldn't play a Paladin of Kelanen. Not saying he was the one, but it might be useful to have a one page 'Make sure you didn't do this' checklist to hand out to new players.
Drezden 03-04-07, 01:20 AM	Is it the same guy who had the Templar problem? BTW, what I would really like to do it put together a basic flyer, like LG 101 on it for some of the players, stuff like: Make sure you take an action every of combat that helps the party win. or Don't make Dwarf Hexblades with 10 Con scores. lol It is pretty scary how bad some of the players at our local venue are. Some of them - for example a certain Bard/Sor - have even been playing for several years too. That guy has been playing since Year 1. Of course, his character is only 9th or 10th from the multiple, multiple deaths. You know you are in trouble when the guy is buying a Thinaun weapon to save on the raise dead costs! lol Daren Hmm...interesting...one of the players of that particular group had another problem with alignment - we were talking before GenCon and I pointed out that he couldn't play a Paladin of Kelanen. Not saying he was the one, but it might be useful to have a one page 'Make sure you didn't do this' checklist to hand out to new players.
JohnduBois 03-04-07, 08:43 AM	BTW, what I would really like to do it put together a basic flyer, like LG 101 on it for some of the players, stuff like: Make sure you take an action every of combat that helps the party win. or Don't make Dwarf Hexblades with 10 Con scores. lol This is much different than a list of easily-missed rules. I'm much in favor of making a list of "lots of people do this, but you're not allowed to do it" items, but the list you propose is really close to dictating to other people how to build and play their characters, and I'm not fond of that. People should always have the choice of how to play their characters. You can still give advice, like "If you build a melee fighter with a 10 CON, you are likely to die a lot", but as someone who plays a dwarf bard, a favored soul without healing spells, a centaur trying to be a pirate, and a wizard who has conjuration and transmutation as banned schools, I can assure you that the "your build is suboptimal; you should take X feat and X cookie-cutter PrC to be more effective" litany gets real tired, real fast. I'm not saying that I'm a hard-core roleplayer who refuses to admit that D&D has its roots in fantasy miniatures wargaming (because I know it does), but I prefer to build characters that are unique and memorable, and sometimes that means not having the "best" feat/ability or combat tactic for your class/build choices. Granted, you shouldn't be acting AGAINST the party, but in some combats, taking actions or making feat/ability choices that don't directly help the party win are appropriate for the character.
Drezden 03-04-07, 09:11 AM	John - just trust me on this one - some of the people we are talking about are really, really, bad. This isn't about making roleplaying choices. This is about not making some really bad build (or in combat) choices that will doom you and your party to death time after time. Sure - some advanced players can choose sub-optimal feats, skills or attribute choices and make it work. This isn't what this is about. If anything, a lot of these people don't roleplay their characters well. Because 20 Int 8th level wizards would not continue to use their 5th level wand of magic missiles, when they and another party member are surrounded by low level mooks in glitterdust formation - and he has 2 glitterdusts prepared!! That is an actual example which resulted in 2 deaths. Daren This is much different than a list of easily-missed rules. I'm much in favor of making a list of "lots of people do this, but you're not allowed to do it" items, but the list you propose is really close to dictating to other people how to build and play their characters, and I'm not fond of that. People should always have the choice of how to play their characters. You can still give advice, like "If you build a melee fighter with a 10 CON, you are likely to die a lot", but as someone who plays a dwarf bard, a favored soul without healing spells, a centaur trying to be a pirate, and a wizard who has conjuration and transmutation as banned schools, I can assure you that the "your build is suboptimal; you should take X feat and X cookie-cutter PrC to be more effective" litany gets real tired, real fast. I'm not saying that I'm a hard-core roleplayer who refuses to admit that D&D has its roots in fantasy miniatures wargaming (because I know it does), but I prefer to build characters that are unique and memorable, and sometimes that means not having the "best" feat/ability or combat tactic for your class/build choices. Granted, you shouldn't be acting AGAINST the party, but in some combats, taking actions or making feat/ability choices that don't directly help the party win are appropriate for the character.
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 11:20 AM	Is it the same guy who had the Templar problem? I wasn't there - I don't know who it was - I just know who played from the list :)
Genghis Cohen 03-04-07, 11:28 AM	Hey, the best part was that even without the ability to rage the LN Templar was still very effective doing 55+ a hit when using his Smite ability. Although he didn't get to go that much before the other power gamers at the table killed everything. Fun all the way around. :) Thanks for DMing Genghis. DarenYou guys inflicted cruel and unusual punishment on that mod. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 11:51 AM	Because 20 Int 8th level wizards would not continue to use their 5th level wand of magic missiles, when they and another party member are surrounded by low level mooks in glitterdust formation - and he has 2 glitterdusts prepared!! That is an actual example which resulted in 2 deaths. Daren At one point, this same player and another one were 5th level Wizards and my 12 Con Wood Elf Archer was 3rd level. There was a 2nd level cleric, a 3rd level elf monk with a 14 Str, and a 3rd level Sorcerer. i.e. replace the 5th level Wizards with 1 3rd level Wizard, and we're almost certainly playing APL 2. We're at APL 4, get ambushed, and my Rogue Wood Elf Archer on the front lines gets dropped to 3 hp on the 1st round. I can't retreat because there's nowhere to go back.. The enemies are in glitterdust formation and I asked both the wizards to memorize that spell(as I have a level of Rogue and get to do sneak attack damage) This guy starts reaching for the wand, which wouldn't have taken out anyone. The other wizard starts trying to head back up the stairs where he couldn't cast spells at anyone, presumably to cast some sort of defensive spell. The enemies can only get to them if the frontline gets killed. This was one of two times in LG where I flat out told someone what to do. Told them both to cast Glitterdust, the enemy was mostly blinded, and we won without a death. This happened more than a year ago and this same guy is still making the same mistakes he made that time. The other guy at one point, the party was getting brutalized at APL 6(and again, he's the reason we're at a higher APL because he's 8th) - he's yet to take any damage, he can cast a spell and then get behind full cover where none of the bad guys can reach him - he wants to DDoor out of range of the combat, almost certainly getting 4 of us killed, because he doesn't want die just before leveling. That was the other time and with a DM who usually won't stop a player from doing something stupid...
Mattastrophic 03-04-07, 12:34 PM	but I prefer to build characters that are unique and memorable, and sometimes that means not having the "best" feat/ability or combat tactic for your class/build choices. Just remember that you don't have to nerf yourself to be unique or to roleplay. I have a pet peeve about people who think that taking Negotiator = Good Roleplaying. -Matt's Virtuoso has no need for such crap.
Mattastrophic 03-04-07, 12:40 PM	This happened more than a year ago and this same guy is still making the same mistakes he made that time. One very very effective way to eliminate this sort of problem is to simply run with a crew, even if it's of 2-3 people. Find people you know and communicate slot choices together at cons. Ever since I started doing that, I've had no trouble with bad tables, because even if we got a poor person or two, the reliable four or five others would pick up the slack. Also, having a cleric cohort really helps, too, as it's a safety net for everyone. Plus, if your healing cohort gets a reputation for saving the party, I guarantee you'll soon discover a larger proportion of five-man tables being thrown your way. -Matt
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 01:04 PM	One very very effective way to eliminate this sort of problem is to simply run with a crew, even if it's of 2-3 people. Find people you know and communicate slot choices together at cons. Ever since I started doing that, I've had no trouble with bad tables, because even if we got a poor person or two, the reliable four or five others would pick up the slack. We had a bunch of 5/4s without any primary casters except for him at 8th. After the 1st round, 1 of our 5s was down, a 2nd was hurting, and he was talking about teleporting himself and one of the other members of the party away. No matter how good the other people might have been, this was one of those encounters where it was likely that if he did this, they almost certainly would have dropped two more members of the party in the next round and it was also unlikely that we could have taken them out fast enough to prevent this. That would have made it one vs at least two of them. And get this, as it was, he actually took a full attack from twice and survived - he had more hit points and AC than anyone else in the party, and that's before he cast False Life(Dwarf Wizard with I think an 18 Con)
Drezden 03-04-07, 01:12 PM	Andy - the scary thing is that I think we might be talking about 2 different players. lol Are you talking about GW? Sounds like it. Because the wizard in my example was MK. Matt - all of these examples are from a local gameday we play at. While you have some control over who you play with, more often than not, tables are mustered according to levels. You play low at your own risk. lol Daren We had a bunch of 5/4s without any primary casters except for him at 8th. After the 1st round, 1 of our 5s was down, a 2nd was hurting, and he was talking about teleporting himself and one of the other members of the party away. No matter how good the other people might have been, this was one of those encounters where it was likely that if he did this, they almost certainly would have dropped two more members of the party in the next round and it was also unlikely that we could have taken them out fast enough to prevent this. That would have made it one vs at least two of them. And get this, as it was, he actually took a full attack from twice and survived - he had more hit points and AC than anyone else in the party, and that's before he cast False Life(Dwarf Wizard with I think an 18 Con)
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 01:39 PM	Andy - the scary thing is that I think we might be talking about 2 different players. lol Are you talking about GW? Sounds like it. Because the wizard in my example was MK. I'm talking about both of 'em. At the 1st table, they were the two wizards with MK wanting to use the Wand and GW trying to flee. Talk about a table of doom - 5 people at the table either glowed in the dark and/or had to make Will Saves to avoid opening doors. GW was the wizard at the 2nd one.
Drezden 03-04-07, 01:42 PM	One of the funniest thing ever is when Andy (MwaO) e-mails me concerned that I had placed him at the "Table of Doom." lol We really can get some tables like that. Kinda like, your character goes and attacks the enemy and then by the time you go again, no one else has attacked. lol Daren I'm talking about both of 'em. At the 1st table, they were the two wizards. Talk about a table of doom - 5 people at the table either glowed in the dark and/or had to make Will Saves to avoid opening doors. GW was the wizard at the 2nd one.
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 01:47 PM	I'm pretty certain it was that table... One of the funniest thing ever is when Andy (MwaO) e-mails me concerned that I had placed him at the "Table of Doom." lol We really can get some tables like that. Kinda like, your character goes and attacks the enemy and then by the time you go again, no one else has attacked. lol Daren
Samwise 03-04-07, 07:25 PM	Don't you wish you had someone to summon badgers for you? Y the UnGnome (and Gana), the Badger Mage (Who also now has haste thanks to the Furyondy Triad so MwaO will stop complaining that he can't cast it instead of summoning his beloved badgers.)
Genghis Cohen 03-04-07, 09:26 PM	I'm talking about both of 'em. At the 1st table, they were the two wizards with MK wanting to use the Wand and GW trying to flee. Talk about a table of doom - 5 people at the table either glowed in the dark and/or had to make Will Saves to avoid opening doors. GW was the wizard at the 2nd one.GW helped set the stage for my Dwarf's first death. He likes to cast defensive buffs on himself after combat begins. Instead of killing a bad guy, or performing battlefield control, he spent two rounds buffing himself. Then a round goading the bad guys. Three rounds being useless. The party cleric died in the last round of combat. I died in the next encounter. I've played with once since then, and I began to tell him how to play his character and I never tell anyone how to play their character.
Genghis Cohen 03-04-07, 09:26 PM	Don't you wish you had someone to summon badgers for you? Y the UnGnome (and Gana), the Badger Mage (Who also now has haste thanks to the Furyondy Triad so MwaO will stop complaining that he can't cast it instead of summoning his beloved badgers.)You can haste your badgers.
Drezden 03-04-07, 10:08 PM	GW is not nearly as bad as he once was nor as bad as MK. Hey, GW's wizard is now 12th level - oh wait, no my BDF is 12th level, he just carries around one of GW's dead wizard's head. lol Carry around a grey elven wizard head is a great roleplaying device. I have even found traps with it by rolling it down the hallway. Sadly, that was the most useful that character ever was - including when he was alive. :) Daren GW helped set the stage for my Dwarf's first death. He likes to cast defensive buffs on himself after combat begins. Instead of killing a bad guy, or performing battlefield control, he spent two rounds buffing himself. Then a round goading the bad guys. Three rounds being useless. The party cleric died in the last round of combat. I died in the next encounter. I've played with once since then, and I began to tell him how to play his character and I never tell anyone how to play their character.
Samwise 03-04-07, 10:22 PM	You can haste your badgers. Mmmmm . . . . hasted badgers . . .
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 10:24 PM	GW is not nearly as bad as he once was nor as bad as MK. At points. He's better with spells when he uses them. But he nearly caused a TPK with his actions a couple of months ago, when he hadn't even been hit yet. Fortunately, the DM was equally appalled.
clannagh 03-05-07, 09:54 PM	Don't you wish you had someone to summon badgers for you? Y the UnGnome (and Gana), the Badger Mage (Who also now has haste thanks to the Furyondy Triad so MwaO will stop complaining that he can't cast it instead of summoning his beloved badgers.) just how many badgers do you need to summon before one randomly turns up as a mushroom ?
Samwise 03-06-07, 02:06 AM	just how many badgers do you need to summon before one randomly turns up as a mushroom ? No wild magic spell failure for me, thank you kindly! All my badgers are badgers, and nothing else. Well, unless I need a celestial dolphin for some underwater adventure. :P