Domesticated Animals [Archive] - Wizards Community

Domesticated Animals [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MeinVT
10-09-06, 11:34 PM I'm not clear on how the LG rules on Domesticated Animals (pg 40) interact with the Player's Handbook rules (pg 74-75).

Say I purchase a Riding Dog. Now, based on the Player's Handbook I would expect that it was trained for Combat Riding. The MM states that a riding dog trained for war can make trip attacks. How this is determined isn't clear.

LG pg40 says "Almost all of these animals can perfom the basic attack trick..." It doesn't say that you don't get the other tricks you normally would, but at the top of the second column there are a number of things that imply this. "When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. Youmust pick the tricks from page 74 of the PH under Handle Animal." I assume it means this trick is extra beyond attack, not extra beyond the 3 tricks per intelligence allow to an animal. Also the only tricks on page 74 are attack and come, but presumably it means"under Handle Animal" and the page reference is redundant and not a limitation.

Next is a section specific to riding dog. It says you may either pick two extra tricks (it isn't clear if these are extra beyond the "attack" trick, extra beyond the "attack" +2 tricks in LG, and whether or not these are extra to the 6 ultimate tricks that you may or may not have based on your PH purchase) or pick the trip attack. It then warns that you need documentation to break the above rules.

So my question is whether the LG document is specifically attempting to negate the Player's Handbook sentence under Combat Riding that says: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." and clearly shows that these animals know "attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel."

If the LG document is intended to not allow those tricks, then are you required to go through five or six adventures before you can successfully train the creature enough to ride it? The LG document doesn't allow for training for a purpose, so I don't think this is the case.

Thanks for any clarifications.
Howie23
10-10-06, 12:28 AM I'm not clear on how the LG rules on Domesticated Animals (pg 40) interact with the Player's Handbook rules (pg 74-75).

As you noted, LG does not use the train for general purpose option. Instead, domesticated animals with an Int 2 have three trick slots populated and three slots open. Attack is usually one of those slots. You can use the other two to for a riding dog's trip. This will give him the ability to attack normal creatures with a move action to command via a Handle Animal DC 10, and to trip upon a successful bite. Any other command would be a full round push, Handle Animal DC25.

Say I purchase a Riding Dog. Now, based on the Player's Handbook I would expect that it was trained for Combat Riding. The MM states that a riding dog trained for war can make trip attacks. How this is determined isn't clear....

So my question is whether the LG document is specifically attempting to negate the Player's Handbook sentence under Combat Riding that says: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." and clearly shows that these animals know "attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel."

The PH doesn't say warhorses and riding dogs are trained for Combat Riding. As such, it is not clear that they know those tricks. Rather, as you have noted, it says that they don't require any further training to bear riders into combat. It is an interpretation, and one that is not used in the LGCS, that this means that they already have the Combat Riding suite. I think that giving purchased animals a general purpose worth of tricks when purchased would make sense either for a home game, or if we ever get a revision here (the cost of having someone train the animal is very small) would make sense.

Trained for war isn't documented anywhere. It isn't clear if this is represented by tricks or something else. In the end, you need campaign documentation (AR, metaorg, etc) to have access to an animal that is trained for war. Tripping is one part of that, covered by the two slot rule. Armor proficiency is the other big one.

If the LG document is intended to not allow those tricks, then are you required to go through five or six adventures before you can successfully train the creature enough to ride it? The LG document doesn't allow for training for a purpose, so I don't think this is the case.

The LGCS doesn't disallow the tricks, rather it replaces the training system outlined in Handle Animals with it's own system.

The dog or warhorse is still trained to bear a rider into combat without the Combat Riding purpose. Remember, it says nothing else is required, not that it already has the purpose; the LGCS doesn't change that. You'll still want to get tricks for it, either the basic ones or supplementing with additional Handle Animal checks as outlined in the LGCS. What it can do while bearing you...you'll get table variance on that.

This is a known problem area. Your kind of question comes up just about monthly. It doesn't seem to be a priority to address based upon the lack of action that we've seen.

David
MeinVT
10-10-06, 10:20 PM The PH doesn't say warhorses and riding dogs are trained for Combat Riding. As such, it is not clear that they know those tricks.

The PH says:
" An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel." It also says "Warhorses and riding dogs (see the MM) are already trained to bear riders into combat, ..." just three sentences later. I don't really see this as an interpretation.

The LG guide says "Almost all of these animals can perform the basic attack trick, ..." but nowhere says that animals do not get the tricks they normally would.

I can certainly see where your explanation is implied, but I was hoping there was some official reference that supports the policy you describe.
Oaklock
10-10-06, 10:28 PM The PHB on p 75 says, "Warhorses and Riding Dogs ( see MM) are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose."

It seems reasonable for a DM to allow that as Trained for war.

Also, p 39 of the LGCS, states under the section Adventuring Animals in its first paragraph, "This section clarifies the use of animals in the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign. These rules expand those found in the D&D core rules v.3.5 and only supersede those rules when explicitly stated."

It would seem that the additional rules under Adventuring Animals only expand the existing options for War Horses and Riding Dogs found on P75 of the PHB.

Under my understanding of the way Living Greyhawk works, that unless there is a specific prohibition of a PHB rule such as "Warhorses and Riding Dogs ( see MM) are already trained to bear riders into combat," then the option of Warhorses and Riding Dogs having the Combat Riding Purpose is one of the options that characters have in purchasing these animals.

Also, this was fully discussed when the LGCS 596CY was finalized, and changes, which could have clarified this further, were not made to the LGCS.

Having said that, the PC's that I have judged have opted to buy Riding Dogs with the attack, attack option. I don't blame them, they play in Bissel.
SgtHulka
10-11-06, 09:40 AM Also, p 39 of the LGCS, states under the section Adventuring Animals in its first paragraph, "This section clarifies the use of animals in the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign. These rules expand those found in the D&D core rules v.3.5 and only supersede those rules when explicitly stated."

It would seem that the additional rules under Adventuring Animals only expand the existing options for War Horses and Riding Dogs found on P75 of the PHB.

That's been my understanding, as well. In other words, you can either buy a riding dog for combat riding (default combat riding suite) or you can buy a riding dog for war (put something different in the extra 3 trick slots), but you can't buy a dog for both. So, if you're riding your doggie, it can't trip.

Unless its an animal companion and has extra slots.

Is that what you're saying Oaklock? Or am I misinterpreting you?
MeinVT
10-11-06, 07:20 PM So that's a different understanding, but more consistent with the letter what is written. What then about the word "extra" in the description of animals getting tricks in LG. Is that extra beyond the 3 or 6 they would normally get? If so it would allow either a riding dog with the full suite of combat riding tricks and trip attack, or a riding dog with the full suite of combat riding tricks and the additional attack.

It sounds like even with this approach, the only way to get a dog that will trip attack an undead would be to give up another trick from the normal suite, and take an extra TU teaching it. Living in Bissel, that is a relevant part of the discussion for me.
Jay_Ibero_911
10-11-06, 10:41 PM I'm so happy my druid PC doesn't have to worry so much about this with his riding dog companion. Just use 2 slots for trip and fill up the rest as I please without any hassle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MeinVT 10-09-06, 11:34 PM	I'm not clear on how the LG rules on Domesticated Animals (pg 40) interact with the Player's Handbook rules (pg 74-75). Say I purchase a Riding Dog. Now, based on the Player's Handbook I would expect that it was trained for Combat Riding. The MM states that a riding dog trained for war can make trip attacks. How this is determined isn't clear. LG pg40 says "Almost all of these animals can perfom the basic attack trick..." It doesn't say that you don't get the other tricks you normally would, but at the top of the second column there are a number of things that imply this. "When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. Youmust pick the tricks from page 74 of the PH under Handle Animal." I assume it means this trick is extra beyond attack, not extra beyond the 3 tricks per intelligence allow to an animal. Also the only tricks on page 74 are attack and come, but presumably it means"under Handle Animal" and the page reference is redundant and not a limitation. Next is a section specific to riding dog. It says you may either pick two extra tricks (it isn't clear if these are extra beyond the "attack" trick, extra beyond the "attack" +2 tricks in LG, and whether or not these are extra to the 6 ultimate tricks that you may or may not have based on your PH purchase) or pick the trip attack. It then warns that you need documentation to break the above rules. So my question is whether the LG document is specifically attempting to negate the Player's Handbook sentence under Combat Riding that says: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." and clearly shows that these animals know "attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel." If the LG document is intended to not allow those tricks, then are you required to go through five or six adventures before you can successfully train the creature enough to ride it? The LG document doesn't allow for training for a purpose, so I don't think this is the case. Thanks for any clarifications.
Howie23 10-10-06, 12:28 AM	I'm not clear on how the LG rules on Domesticated Animals (pg 40) interact with the Player's Handbook rules (pg 74-75). As you noted, LG does not use the train for general purpose option. Instead, domesticated animals with an Int 2 have three trick slots populated and three slots open. Attack is usually one of those slots. You can use the other two to for a riding dog's trip. This will give him the ability to attack normal creatures with a move action to command via a Handle Animal DC 10, and to trip upon a successful bite. Any other command would be a full round push, Handle Animal DC25. Say I purchase a Riding Dog. Now, based on the Player's Handbook I would expect that it was trained for Combat Riding. The MM states that a riding dog trained for war can make trip attacks. How this is determined isn't clear.... So my question is whether the LG document is specifically attempting to negate the Player's Handbook sentence under Combat Riding that says: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." and clearly shows that these animals know "attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel." The PH doesn't say warhorses and riding dogs are trained for Combat Riding. As such, it is not clear that they know those tricks. Rather, as you have noted, it says that they don't require any further training to bear riders into combat. It is an interpretation, and one that is not used in the LGCS, that this means that they already have the Combat Riding suite. I think that giving purchased animals a general purpose worth of tricks when purchased would make sense either for a home game, or if we ever get a revision here (the cost of having someone train the animal is very small) would make sense. Trained for war isn't documented anywhere. It isn't clear if this is represented by tricks or something else. In the end, you need campaign documentation (AR, metaorg, etc) to have access to an animal that is trained for war. Tripping is one part of that, covered by the two slot rule. Armor proficiency is the other big one. If the LG document is intended to not allow those tricks, then are you required to go through five or six adventures before you can successfully train the creature enough to ride it? The LG document doesn't allow for training for a purpose, so I don't think this is the case. The LGCS doesn't disallow the tricks, rather it replaces the training system outlined in Handle Animals with it's own system. The dog or warhorse is still trained to bear a rider into combat without the Combat Riding purpose. Remember, it says nothing else is required, not that it already has the purpose; the LGCS doesn't change that. You'll still want to get tricks for it, either the basic ones or supplementing with additional Handle Animal checks as outlined in the LGCS. What it can do while bearing you...you'll get table variance on that. This is a known problem area. Your kind of question comes up just about monthly. It doesn't seem to be a priority to address based upon the lack of action that we've seen. David
MeinVT 10-10-06, 10:20 PM	The PH doesn't say warhorses and riding dogs are trained for Combat Riding. As such, it is not clear that they know those tricks. The PH says: " An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel." It also says "Warhorses and riding dogs (see the MM) are already trained to bear riders into combat, ..." just three sentences later. I don't really see this as an interpretation. The LG guide says "Almost all of these animals can perform the basic attack trick, ..." but nowhere says that animals do not get the tricks they normally would. I can certainly see where your explanation is implied, but I was hoping there was some official reference that supports the policy you describe.
Oaklock 10-10-06, 10:28 PM	The PHB on p 75 says, "Warhorses and Riding Dogs ( see MM) are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don't require any additional training for this purpose." It seems reasonable for a DM to allow that as Trained for war. Also, p 39 of the LGCS, states under the section Adventuring Animals in its first paragraph, "This section clarifies the use of animals in the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign. These rules expand those found in the D&D core rules v.3.5 and only supersede those rules when explicitly stated." It would seem that the additional rules under Adventuring Animals only expand the existing options for War Horses and Riding Dogs found on P75 of the PHB. Under my understanding of the way Living Greyhawk works, that unless there is a specific prohibition of a PHB rule such as "Warhorses and Riding Dogs ( see MM) are already trained to bear riders into combat," then the option of Warhorses and Riding Dogs having the Combat Riding Purpose is one of the options that characters have in purchasing these animals. Also, this was fully discussed when the LGCS 596CY was finalized, and changes, which could have clarified this further, were not made to the LGCS. Having said that, the PC's that I have judged have opted to buy Riding Dogs with the attack, attack option. I don't blame them, they play in Bissel.
SgtHulka 10-11-06, 09:40 AM	Also, p 39 of the LGCS, states under the section Adventuring Animals in its first paragraph, "This section clarifies the use of animals in the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign. These rules expand those found in the D&D core rules v.3.5 and only supersede those rules when explicitly stated." It would seem that the additional rules under Adventuring Animals only expand the existing options for War Horses and Riding Dogs found on P75 of the PHB. That's been my understanding, as well. In other words, you can either buy a riding dog for combat riding (default combat riding suite) or you can buy a riding dog for war (put something different in the extra 3 trick slots), but you can't buy a dog for both. So, if you're riding your doggie, it can't trip. Unless its an animal companion and has extra slots. Is that what you're saying Oaklock? Or am I misinterpreting you?
MeinVT 10-11-06, 07:20 PM	So that's a different understanding, but more consistent with the letter what is written. What then about the word "extra" in the description of animals getting tricks in LG. Is that extra beyond the 3 or 6 they would normally get? If so it would allow either a riding dog with the full suite of combat riding tricks and trip attack, or a riding dog with the full suite of combat riding tricks and the additional attack. It sounds like even with this approach, the only way to get a dog that will trip attack an undead would be to give up another trick from the normal suite, and take an extra TU teaching it. Living in Bissel, that is a relevant part of the discussion for me.
Jay_Ibero_911 10-11-06, 10:41 PM	I'm so happy my druid PC doesn't have to worry so much about this with his riding dog companion. Just use 2 slots for trip and fill up the rest as I please without any hassle.