Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Markbanang 02-04-06, 08:44 AM	I think that the whole issue of domesticated animals has been a minefield for some time and if anything, the new wordking makes matters less clear. By trying to be too generic, the LGCS has caused confusion, disagreements and table variation. Some people assume that animals just get the three tricks mentioned in the LGCS, some think that the LGCS says that animals get their normal three (Int1) or six (Int2) tricks and then the tricks in the LGCS as extra tricks. The former makes it very difficult to handle war horses, as they need to be pushed for most of the things you would just expect them to do, while the latter breaks the PHB rules on maximum number of tricks known. To some the LGCS suggests that domesticated animals can learn more tricks than their Int allows, to others it implies that Warhorses and other animals (assumed to be trained for Combat Riding purpose, which would be logical) can never be trained further as all six trick slots are full. Page 74 of the PHB seems pretty explicit to me - six tricks are the most that can be learned by an Int 2 animal. The only exceptions are the bonus tricks given as part of class skills. Personally, I think it would be best if we just made it explicit what the starting tricks of animals are, and the best way to do that is to assign them purposes. There are very few Animals which are core access anyway and it is fairly obvious how each one is likely to have been trained. Simply listing the animals and then offering options as to how they can be trained would make a lot of sense. Here is my suggestion for an update of this entire section: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Domesticated Animals: Most animals you can buy and adventure with are trained to some extent. The Handle Animal skill can be used to further train these animals. Most animals can only be bought with one purpose, however some can be bought with alternative purposes. Animals available with core access (from Table 7-8 of the Player’s Handbook v.3.5) and their possible initial purposes are listed below: Dog, guard (25gp): Guarding purpose or Hunting purpose Dog, riding (150gp): Combat riding purpose or Hunting purpose Donkey or mule (8gp): Heavy Labour purpose or Riding purpose Horse, heavy (200gp): Riding purpose Horse, light (75gp): Riding purpose Pony (30gp): Riding purpose Warhorse, heavy (400gp): Combat Riding purpose Warhorse, light (150gp): Combat Riding purpose Warpony (100gp): Combat Riding purpose These purposes are detailed on page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. All of these purposes are considered core access and are summarised below: Combat Riding: attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Guarding: attack, defend, down, and guard. Heavy Labour: come and work Hunting: attack, down, fetch, heel, seek, and track. Riding: come, heel, and stay. Commanding an animal to perform a trick is a move action and pushing an animal (commanding an animal to perform a trick it does not know) is a full-round action (see Handle Animal for more details). A druid or ranger can command an animal companion to perform a trick as a free action and push it as a standard action. In particular, note that an animal without heel will not automatically stay with its handler unless it is pushed to perform the heel trick or lead with a leash. Similarly, an animal without stay may wander off if it is not tethered to one spot. Animals with the attack trick are considered "trained for war". In other words, a riding dog trained for Combat riding purpose or Hunting purpose is able to use it's trip attack, as mentioned in the monster manual. Similarly a horse trained for Riding purpose would need to be pushed in order to use its hoof attack(s). You must be riding a horse or a pony in order for it to follow the attack command. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks. Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation. When buying a domesticated animal, the purpose it is bought with should be listed in the play notes section of the AR where it was bought. If you have campaign access to a domesticated animal not listed above but where a purpose is not specified, then you should contact the appropriate authority for that module to request a confirmation. In many cases however, it should be obvious from the animal description. For instance a War-rhino would be trained for Combat Riding purpose, while a Hunting Hawk would be trained for Hunting purpose. Characters with the Handle Animal skill can train their animals further. To do so you must have the ability to train the animal type desired (see skill description, PHB page 74), and spend 1 TU to teach one animal one trick. You must succeed at a Handle Animal check (DC varies – see skill description) after the TU cost is paid. A failed check means the animal isn't trained. You are not able to attempt another check until after you have played another regional adventure. You may not take 20. An animal with its full complement of tricks may be trained further, however you must select which existing trick is lost. This trick is lost even if the training fails. Details of animal training should be listed in the play notes of the AR on which the TU's were spent. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This adds a relatively small amount of text, removes the more ambiguous text and removes some player options but provides tracability (for auditing) of animal tricks, clarifies a number of contested points and puts the whole issue of domesticated animals on a solid footing. What do people think? Something else we might consider is the option of being able to pay someone for training animals. My suggestion would be a third of the cost of the animal in gp and 1TU per trick. Thus, if you wanted a Heavy Warhorse which could attack all creatures (second attack trick) instead of knowing when to back off (down trick) then you would an extra 133gp to have it trained. If you wanted a warhorse you already owned to be trained, then you would lose the use of it for the adventure during which it was being trained. If you were buying a new warhorse, it would not arrive until the end of next adventure you played, unless you had campaign access to it immediately (a specialised trainer). Take care, Mark..........
chrispedersen 02-04-06, 02:06 PM	I don't necessarily agree with the specifics. In particular, combat riding and wartraining are given insufficient treatment. But a brilliant start. C
Howie23 02-04-06, 02:41 PM	Mark, I think you have done a very admirable job of cutting through the tendrils of discussion to provide an overarching solution to this, rather than just dealing with the individual problems. I think we would be well served to work off of your post on this moving forward rather than the other thread; this thread provides good structure for suggested change. Two points, however: I don't think that it is necessary to provide the PHB quotes in the LGCS. They maybe needed to provide context for the discussion now, or as fuel for a later Dispel Confusion. Animals with the attack trick are considered "trained for war". I don't think that attack is sufficient to be "trained for war." Many of the purposes, including hunting, have attack. To suggest that hunting is equivelant to "trained for war" is stretching the definition. I don't see a hunting hawk as being proficient in wearing plate armor (which happens if attack gives "trained for war," per the MM, pp. 305-6). "Trained for war" is either something available through the trick system (tricks x, y, and z), or it is something that is outside of the trick system. If "trained for war" is to be an easily accessible option for animals via a classification that is permitted through tricks, it should (IMO), at a minimum, include two slots for attack. This does create the "combat riding plus attack twice requires intelligence 3" problem, due to the seven tricks required. War is fundamentally different than merely fighting or hunting. The alternative is that "trained for war" is something not covered by the trick system. This is implied by the PHB description of Combat Riding. In this case, then something like "warhorses and riding dogs are purchased trained for war, as is reflected in their higher purchase price. Obtaining other animals trained for war requires campaign documentation," heads in that direction. Also needed to be addressed is the existing Circle decision that animal companions are generally not trained for war (see Pale website for text). One solution, if tricks are the way to become trained for war, is to specifiy that an animal that is "trained for war" is a domesticated animal that has tricks x, y, and z. That excludes animal companions. Again, I like what you've done with refocusing the discussion. David
hustonjj 02-04-06, 04:44 PM	I don't think that attack is sufficient to be "trained for war." And that is the crux of a problem I have had with the 3.x rules in multiple campaigns, and with multiple officials within the LG campaign. Trained for war is a phrase used in the MM, while attempting to avoid the key words "attack" and "combat" which are explicitly used to identify specific items within the MM. The Handle Animal skill, the only way to train an animal, provides no explicit means to Train for war. I have, therefor, had multiple people tell me that it can not be done. No definition is provided, so it is not possible. I have also had people tell me that a Horse, Light which IS Trained for war does NOT become a Warhorse, Light. This is based on the idea that the stablock for a Light Warhorse is more different than the statblock for a LIght Horse than is required to remove the non-combat herbivore penalty. I would LOVE to see a firm definition of Trained for war, and a firm confirmation or denial of training a Pony of war producing a warpony or not.
Oaklock 02-05-06, 07:00 PM	LGCS ( both 4.2 and 5.0 draft ) states [/QUOTE] Adventuring Animals This section clarifies the use of animals in the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign. These rules expand those found in the D&D core rules v.3.5 and only supersede those rules when explicitly stated. [/QUOTE] To me, that means that any PHB standard is core for Adventuring Animals and the LGCS supplements this core option. That means the Warhorses and Riding Dogs in the PHB (p74, Combat Riding ) are by default, "trained to bear riders into combat," or Trained for War. And therefore, Riding Dogs get the Trip attack, and all can wear barding without penalties. Clearly stating this in the LGCS would clear up any misunderstanding. To some the LGCS .... implies that Warhorses and other animals (assumed to be trained for Combat Riding purpose, which would be logical) can never be trained further as all six trick slots are full. Page 74 of the PHB seems pretty explicit to me - six tricks are the most that can be learned by an Int 2 animal. The only exceptions are the bonus tricks given as part of class skills. Personally, I think it would be best if we just made it explicit what the starting tricks of animals are, and the best way to do that is to assign them purposes. There are very few Animals which are core access anyway and it is fairly obvious how each one is likely to have been trained. Simply listing the animals and then offering options as to how they can be trained would make a lot of sense. Here is my suggestion for an update of this entire section: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Domesticated Animals: Most animals you can buy and adventure with are trained to some extent. The Handle Animal skill can be used to further train these animals. Most animals can only be bought with one purpose, however some can be bought with alternative purposes. [B]Animals available with core access (from Table 7-8 of the Player’s Handbook v.3.5) and their possible initial purposes are listed below: Dog, guard (25gp): Guarding purpose or Hunting purpose Dog, riding (150gp): Combat riding purpose or Hunting purpose Donkey or mule (8gp): Heavy Labour purpose or Riding purpose Horse, heavy (200gp): Riding purpose Horse, light (75gp): Riding purpose Pony (30gp): Riding purpose Warhorse, heavy (400gp): Combat Riding purpose Warhorse, light (150gp): Combat Riding purpose Warpony (100gp): Combat Riding purpose These purposes are detailed on page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. All of these purposes are considered core access and are summarised below: ... What do people think? Take care, Mark.......... Thanks, Mark, for this input. While I may not completely agree with all the specifics (or verbiage ), this would help clear up much confusion. I do like the idea in the LGCS that, [/QUOTE] When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two extra tricks or use these two trick slots to make the dog trained to use a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). Animals gained that start play with more than the standard training must be supported with campaign or regional documentation.[/QUOTE] as a supplement to the PHB default definition of Warhorses and Riding Dogs. When I suggested to four 1st level characters that they would have a better chance of living through the module with Riding Dogs, the 2 characters who bought them both chose the Riding Dog with attack, attack tricks (very helpful in Bissel). I had given them the option of the a Riding Dog with Combat Riding general purpose with the Trip ability, a Riding Dog with the Attack general purpose with the Trip ability(my interpretation), as well as a Riding Dog with the attack trick with two other tricks. Mark, thanks again for your well done work. Fred
Swiftbrook 02-07-06, 07:22 PM	The deadline is fast approaching (midnight tonight I believe). In summary, I believe everyone agrees (well almost) that: "Trained for war" needs to be defined. Specifically, which tricks are required to be "trained for war". Which tricks a purchased domesticated animal starts off with. Options should be available here. Don't limit the list to Riding Dogs. Include Guard Dogs, War Horses, etc. I'll add a few other items from my point of view: A Trip should not count as two tricks. I'm not convinced is should even count as one extra trick. I.E. don't create new rules. If you change the rules, create a mechanism so I can 'fix' my character who has trained my domesticated animal and used it for the past few years. Don't create a mechanism that prevents animals from pickiing up the second Attack trick. Remember, this allows the animal to attack strange creatures. Remember, most of this applies only to purchased animals. Animal Companions and Paladin Mounts get all this stuff for free. -Swiftbrook
Howie23 02-07-06, 08:35 PM	The deadline is fast approaching (midnight tonight I believe). In summary, I believe everyone agrees (well almost) that: "Trained for war" needs to be defined. Specifically, which tricks are required to be "trained for war". Which tricks a purchased domesticated animal starts off with. Options should be available here. Don't limit the list to Riding Dogs. Include Guard Dogs, War Horses, etc. Riding Dogs and War Horses, yes. I have not seen any conversation about Guard Dogs at all. My apologies if I missed it. As a late entry in the "trained for war" issue, the MM2 description of Warbeast descrips "war," as in "warhorse" or "wardog" as a template. The template doesn't exist anywhere, and MM2 is 3.0, but there it is. I'll add a few other items from my point of view: [list] A Trip should not count as two tricks. I'm not convinced is should even count as one extra trick. I.E. don't create new rules. The trip = two tricks rule is a substitute for a definition for Trained for War. If Trained for War is resolved, this goes away. Abstracting it from purpose Fighting (LGCS 4.2) may have the same trick count as trip=two tricks, but seems a rather round-about way of getting to it. If Trained for War is defined, I agree re: trip<>two tricks. David
Rawveggie 02-07-06, 08:56 PM	Riding Dogs and War Horses, yes. I have not seen any conversation about Guard Dogs at all. My apologies if I missed it. I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread other than on the lists above (no discussion), but I have seen it come up multiple times. In the PHB, in the "Mounts and Related Gear" section of Table 7-8 "Goods and Services" a "Dog, guard" is listed. There is no description of what this creature is or how it is trained. -Raw
TheMagus 02-08-06, 04:12 PM	For the guard dog, I guess I've always just assumed it was a small dog trained for guarding. The rest of this topic is wonderful. I love the initial suggestion and a couple of the modifications. I would combine them as follows: Domesticated Animals: Animals you can buy and take on adventures are trained for one purpose prior to purchase. For each animal you purchase, you may choose that purpose from the list below. The Handle Animal skill can be used to further train these animals. Core Access Animal* Purposes: Dog, guard (25gp): Guarding or Hunting purpose Dog, riding (150gp): Combat Riding or Hunting purpose Donkey or mule (8gp): Heavy Labor or Riding purpose Horse, heavy (200gp): Heavy Labor or Riding purpose Horse, light (75gp): Heavy Labor or Riding purpose Pony (30gp): Heavy Labor or Riding purpose Warhorse, heavy (400gp): Combat Riding purpose Warhorse, light (150gp): Combat Riding purpose Warpony (100gp): Combat Riding purpose (*All Core Access Animals are from Table 7-8 of the Player’s Handbook v.3.5) Each purpose is detailed on page 75 of the PHB, and grants the animal a number of tricks. These tricks count against the normal limit of tricks based on animal intelligence. When you buy a domesticated animal, its purpose should be listed in the play notes section of the AR. Commanding an animal to perform a trick is a move action and "pushing" an animal (commanding an animal to perform a trick it does not know) is a full-round action. Characters with the animal companion class feature can command an animal companion to perform a trick as a free action, and push it as a standard action. An animal without heel will not automatically stay with its handler unless it is pushed to perform the heel trick or lead with a leash. Similarly, an animal without stay may wander off if it is not tethered to one spot. Each warhorse, warpony or riding dog has been trained for war. This is reflected in their purchase price. Obtaining other animals trained for war requires campaign documentation. These animals may wear barding without a proficiency penalty. A riding dog is able to use its attack to trip, as described in the Monster Manual. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack unnatural creatures (all other types) costs an additional trick. (A total of two tricks devoted to attack.) The tricks listed in the PHB are core access. Animals with other types of training require campaign documentation. If you have access to a domesticated animal not listed above, it is considered untrained unless it lists a specific purpose. In some cases the purpose should be obvious from the description. For example, a War-Rhino would be trained for the Combat Riding purpose and treated as trained for war, while a Hunting Hawk would be trained for Hunting purpose. Characters with the Handle Animal skill can further train their animals. You must spend 1 TU to teach one animal one trick. You must succeed at a Handle Animal check (DC varies – see skill description) after the TU cost is paid. If you fail the check, then the animal is not trained. You may not attempt another check until after you have played another adventure. You may not take 20. An animal with its full complement of tricks may be trained further, however you must select which existing trick is lost. This trick is lost even if the training fails. Details of animal training should be listed in the play notes of the AR on which the TU's were spent.
GreySector 02-08-06, 04:51 PM	A Trip should not count as two tricks. I'm not convinced is should even count as one extra trick. I.E. don't create new rules. -Swiftbrook Agreed! A riding dog, as described in the Monster Manual already knows how to trip. It shouldn't take tricks to teach it to do something that is in it's statblock. -Michael Eshleman
Swiftbrook 02-08-06, 07:41 PM	For the guard dog, I guess I've always just assumed it was a small dog trained for guarding. Me too. Domesticated Animals: Animals you can buy and take on adventures are trained for one purpose prior to purchase. For each animal you purchase, you may choose that purpose from the list below. The Handle Animal skill can be used to further train these animals. (snip) These tricks count against the normal limit of tricks based on animal intelligence. When you buy a domesticated animal, its purpose should be listed in the play notes section of the AR. [Quote=TheMagus]An animal without heel will not automatically stay with its handler unless it is pushed to perform the heel trick or lead with a leash. Similarly, an animal without stay may wander off if it is not tethered to one spot. Don't know where you're getting this stuff. Sounds like you're making up rules, not just clerifying the minimum that is needed. I could be wrong. Not a rules lawer. Don't like the idea of adding this type of detail. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack unnatural creatures (all other types) costs an additional trick. (A total of two tricks devoted to attack.) (snip) An animal with its full complement of tricks may be trained further, however you must select which existing trick is lost. This trick is lost even if the training fails. Details of animal training should be listed in the play notes of the AR on which the TU's were spent. This is where I see a small problem. There does need to be clerification about how to replace tricks. It's a new rule, (I don't like the idea of new rules) but it might be needed. A riding dog that is trained for the Combat Riding or Hunting purpose has used all 6 of its tricks. Which tricks can I remove and teach it an additional Attack trick? Can I do teach an old dog a new trick replacing an old trick? I would add to the list that animals can be trained for with the Fighting purpose should be considered Trained for War. This leave three trick slots open. -Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook 02-08-06, 08:12 PM	Follow up. As I think about it, I believe "Trained for War" should be defined as any animal which has been trained for the purpose of Fighting, Combat Riding, Guarding or Hunting. Or, you could simply say an animal that has the Attack and Down tricks is "Trained for War". Keep it simple. -Swiftbrook
Oaklock 02-08-06, 09:42 PM	While I agree with the need for the additional changes, I believe the present ( either 4.2 or 5.0 language ) that has animals being purchased with the attack trick + 2 other tricks as being very important and helpful to the campaign (especially in year 5 Bissel for 1st and 2nd level characters). The option to buy a Riding Dog with two attack tricks, is espescially important.