Draconic Claws [Archive] - Wizards Community

Draconic Claws [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
trollbill
06-05-06, 02:22 PM I have a human Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage feats. He will be picking up Draconic Claws at 6th-level and I had a couple of questions:

1) Since this feat gives him a natural weapon, by default, since his claws are his only natural weapon, they must qualify as his primary natural weapon. Am I correct in assumming that he would be able to make 2 claw attacks as a full round action without penalty to either attack?

2) In addition to giving you claws, the feat allows you to take a single free claw attack against a creature you threaten every time you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. How does this work with touch spells? When you cast a touch spell you get to make an attack roll to discharge it on the round you cast it. Essentially you get a free attack on the round cast. Normally this is a touch attack, but creatures with natural weapons can discharge touch spells with a successful normal attack roll with their natural weapons. So does this mean if I cast Shocking Grasp I can make a touch attack with it the round I cast it, then, if I miss, use my free claw attack in a second attempt to discharge it in the same round? Can I choose which order I make these attacks in? Can I make this free touch attack a standard attack with a natural weapon instead giving me 2 free claw attacks when I use touch spells?

That last questions is a bit of a stretch, but I would like to know what the official answers are because I doubt most DMs are going to know this one. It is too important to the spell choices of this character to be left to the whims of each DM. :tiphat:
Howie23
06-05-06, 03:20 PM I have a human Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage feats. He will be picking up Draconic Claws at 6th-level and I had a couple of questions:

1) Since this feat gives him a natural weapon, by default, since his claws are his only natural weapon, they must qualify as his primary natural weapon. Am I correct in assumming that he would be able to make 2 claw attacks as a full round action without penalty to either attack?

It does not follow that only having one type of natural attack makes it a primary natural weapon. Centaur hooves, for example are secondary attacks, and therefore take the -5 penalty. I don't know whether your sorc's claws are primary or secondary. Whichever they are, you would get both natural attacks as part of a full attack sequence, either at full BAB or at -5, if secondary.

2) In addition to giving you claws, the feat allows you to take a single free claw attack against a creature you threaten every time you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. How does this work with touch spells? When you cast a touch spell you get to make an attack roll to discharge it on the round you cast it. Essentially you get a free attack on the round cast. Normally this is a touch attack, but creatures with natural weapons can discharge touch spells with a successful normal attack roll with their natural weapons. So does this mean if I cast Shocking Grasp I can make a touch attack with it the round I cast it, then, if I miss, use my free claw attack in a second attempt to discharge it in the same round? Can I choose which order I make these attacks in? Can I make this free touch attack a standard attack with a natural weapon instead giving me 2 free claw attacks when I use touch spells?

That last questions is a bit of a stretch, but I would like to know what the official answers are because I doubt most DMs are going to know this one. It is too important to the spell choices of this character to be left to the whims of each DM. :tiphat:

This question, and similar, seem to be making the rounds these days.

If the feat reads as you say, you can either take the touch attack, and then also take the claw attack, or you can give up your free touch attack as part of casting, and attempt to deliver it as part of the claw attack. If the claw attack is successful, the spell is delivered, and otherwise you still hold the charge, similar to if you had cast and then moved to deliver the attack.

A similar question comes up for monks with spellcasting...Monk flurrying with chill touch, anyone?

That said, I'm not 100% if this is correct. It is the way I'm running it at my tables now, until I find a more authoritative answer on the subject.

To obtain a ruling that is authoritative, you need to submit it to customer service and hope that it makes it to the FAQ.

David
trollbill
06-06-06, 11:27 AM It does not follow that only having one type of natural attack makes it a primary natural weapon. Centaur hooves, for example are secondary attacks, and therefore take the -5 penalty. I don't know whether your sorc's claws are primary or secondary. Whichever they are, you would get both natural attacks as part of a full attack sequence, either at full BAB or at -5, if secondary.

While I see your technical point on this, the feat doesn't state that it is a secondary attack that always suffers a -5. It doesn't state it is always a primary attack either, but in situations where the creature that takes this feat already has a primary natural attack, I would think the claws would default to secondary rather than replace the creature's original primary. If, however, it was always intended to be a secondary attack, I would think they would state that.

If the feat reads as you say, you can either take the touch attack, and then also take the claw attack, or you can give up your free touch attack as part of casting, and attempt to deliver it as part of the claw attack. If the claw attack is successful, the spell is delivered, and otherwise you still hold the charge, similar to if you had cast and then moved to deliver the attack.

While I find that to be a perfectly reasonable ruling, since it isn't an official answer I can only recommend it as a suggested solution when I play under a different DM.

A similar question comes up for monks with spellcasting...Monk flurrying with chill touch, anyone?

Is there an official ruling on this?

That said, I'm not 100% if this is correct. It is the way I'm running it at my tables now, until I find a more authoritative answer on the subject.

To obtain a ruling that is authoritative, you need to submit it to customer service and hope that it makes it to the FAQ.

Sadly I have discovered I know the rules far better than anyone at Customer Service.
Howie23
06-06-06, 03:11 PM Is there an official ruling on this (touch attacks delivered as melee attacks)

Not that I know of. There is a Rules of the Game article (which does not have the force of rule in LG) that describes a familiar delivering a touch attack in the manner I have indicated.

Sadly I have discovered I know the rules far better than anyone at Customer Service.

It isn't customer service that provides the FAQ answer. Andy Collins does. This is the defined mechanism for getting an "official ruling" for D&D rules within LG. Until you do that, you will get table variance. The answer from Customer Service is a guideline, comparible to Rules of the Game. It is the FAQ ruling you are aiming for to meet your goal.

David
trollbill
06-06-06, 03:36 PM Not that I know of. There is a Rules of the Game article (which does not have the force of rule in LG) that describes a familiar delivering a touch attack in the manner I have indicated.

It isn't customer service that provides the FAQ answer. Andy Collins does. This is the defined mechanism for getting an "official ruling" for D&D rules within LG. Until you do that, you will get table variance. The answer from Customer Service is a guideline, comparible to Rules of the Game. It is the FAQ ruling you are aiming for to meet your goal.

David

David, thanks for your replies. My last one was mostly just me *****ing that I obviously wasn't going to get an official answer anytime soon. No biggie.

I am someone curious as to the status of the Rules of the Game articles. I know Skip isn't the official Sage anymore, but that doesn't mean his rules judgement has, in any way, been compromised. Furthermore, as a writer of web articles myself, I know the content is checked for accuracy prior to publishing (albiet mistakes still happen, but they happen in just about any published material). Therefore, one would think that anything published in Rules of the Game would not violate the official rules.
Arvagor
06-06-06, 04:04 PM I will refrain from comments on the quality of Skip's "Rules of the Game" articles... ;)

As far as the primary/secondary natural attacks go, take a look at page 61, 2nd column of the current (5/24/06) FAQ -- there are many Q&A regarding the nature of primary and secondary attacks and how they interact with manufactured weaponry and others

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 06-05-06, 02:22 PM	I have a human Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage feats. He will be picking up Draconic Claws at 6th-level and I had a couple of questions: 1) Since this feat gives him a natural weapon, by default, since his claws are his only natural weapon, they must qualify as his primary natural weapon. Am I correct in assumming that he would be able to make 2 claw attacks as a full round action without penalty to either attack? 2) In addition to giving you claws, the feat allows you to take a single free claw attack against a creature you threaten every time you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. How does this work with touch spells? When you cast a touch spell you get to make an attack roll to discharge it on the round you cast it. Essentially you get a free attack on the round cast. Normally this is a touch attack, but creatures with natural weapons can discharge touch spells with a successful normal attack roll with their natural weapons. So does this mean if I cast Shocking Grasp I can make a touch attack with it the round I cast it, then, if I miss, use my free claw attack in a second attempt to discharge it in the same round? Can I choose which order I make these attacks in? Can I make this free touch attack a standard attack with a natural weapon instead giving me 2 free claw attacks when I use touch spells? That last questions is a bit of a stretch, but I would like to know what the official answers are because I doubt most DMs are going to know this one. It is too important to the spell choices of this character to be left to the whims of each DM. :tiphat:
Howie23 06-05-06, 03:20 PM	I have a human Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage feats. He will be picking up Draconic Claws at 6th-level and I had a couple of questions: 1) Since this feat gives him a natural weapon, by default, since his claws are his only natural weapon, they must qualify as his primary natural weapon. Am I correct in assumming that he would be able to make 2 claw attacks as a full round action without penalty to either attack? It does not follow that only having one type of natural attack makes it a primary natural weapon. Centaur hooves, for example are secondary attacks, and therefore take the -5 penalty. I don't know whether your sorc's claws are primary or secondary. Whichever they are, you would get both natural attacks as part of a full attack sequence, either at full BAB or at -5, if secondary. 2) In addition to giving you claws, the feat allows you to take a single free claw attack against a creature you threaten every time you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. How does this work with touch spells? When you cast a touch spell you get to make an attack roll to discharge it on the round you cast it. Essentially you get a free attack on the round cast. Normally this is a touch attack, but creatures with natural weapons can discharge touch spells with a successful normal attack roll with their natural weapons. So does this mean if I cast Shocking Grasp I can make a touch attack with it the round I cast it, then, if I miss, use my free claw attack in a second attempt to discharge it in the same round? Can I choose which order I make these attacks in? Can I make this free touch attack a standard attack with a natural weapon instead giving me 2 free claw attacks when I use touch spells? That last questions is a bit of a stretch, but I would like to know what the official answers are because I doubt most DMs are going to know this one. It is too important to the spell choices of this character to be left to the whims of each DM. :tiphat: This question, and similar, seem to be making the rounds these days. If the feat reads as you say, you can either take the touch attack, and then also take the claw attack, or you can give up your free touch attack as part of casting, and attempt to deliver it as part of the claw attack. If the claw attack is successful, the spell is delivered, and otherwise you still hold the charge, similar to if you had cast and then moved to deliver the attack. A similar question comes up for monks with spellcasting...Monk flurrying with chill touch, anyone? That said, I'm not 100% if this is correct. It is the way I'm running it at my tables now, until I find a more authoritative answer on the subject. To obtain a ruling that is authoritative, you need to submit it to customer service and hope that it makes it to the FAQ. David
trollbill 06-06-06, 11:27 AM	It does not follow that only having one type of natural attack makes it a primary natural weapon. Centaur hooves, for example are secondary attacks, and therefore take the -5 penalty. I don't know whether your sorc's claws are primary or secondary. Whichever they are, you would get both natural attacks as part of a full attack sequence, either at full BAB or at -5, if secondary. While I see your technical point on this, the feat doesn't state that it is a secondary attack that always suffers a -5. It doesn't state it is always a primary attack either, but in situations where the creature that takes this feat already has a primary natural attack, I would think the claws would default to secondary rather than replace the creature's original primary. If, however, it was always intended to be a secondary attack, I would think they would state that. If the feat reads as you say, you can either take the touch attack, and then also take the claw attack, or you can give up your free touch attack as part of casting, and attempt to deliver it as part of the claw attack. If the claw attack is successful, the spell is delivered, and otherwise you still hold the charge, similar to if you had cast and then moved to deliver the attack. While I find that to be a perfectly reasonable ruling, since it isn't an official answer I can only recommend it as a suggested solution when I play under a different DM. A similar question comes up for monks with spellcasting...Monk flurrying with chill touch, anyone? Is there an official ruling on this? That said, I'm not 100% if this is correct. It is the way I'm running it at my tables now, until I find a more authoritative answer on the subject. To obtain a ruling that is authoritative, you need to submit it to customer service and hope that it makes it to the FAQ. Sadly I have discovered I know the rules far better than anyone at Customer Service.
Howie23 06-06-06, 03:11 PM	Is there an official ruling on this (touch attacks delivered as melee attacks) Not that I know of. There is a Rules of the Game article (which does not have the force of rule in LG) that describes a familiar delivering a touch attack in the manner I have indicated. Sadly I have discovered I know the rules far better than anyone at Customer Service. It isn't customer service that provides the FAQ answer. Andy Collins does. This is the defined mechanism for getting an "official ruling" for D&D rules within LG. Until you do that, you will get table variance. The answer from Customer Service is a guideline, comparible to Rules of the Game. It is the FAQ ruling you are aiming for to meet your goal. David
trollbill 06-06-06, 03:36 PM	Not that I know of. There is a Rules of the Game article (which does not have the force of rule in LG) that describes a familiar delivering a touch attack in the manner I have indicated. It isn't customer service that provides the FAQ answer. Andy Collins does. This is the defined mechanism for getting an "official ruling" for D&D rules within LG. Until you do that, you will get table variance. The answer from Customer Service is a guideline, comparible to Rules of the Game. It is the FAQ ruling you are aiming for to meet your goal. David David, thanks for your replies. My last one was mostly just me *****ing that I obviously wasn't going to get an official answer anytime soon. No biggie. I am someone curious as to the status of the Rules of the Game articles. I know Skip isn't the official Sage anymore, but that doesn't mean his rules judgement has, in any way, been compromised. Furthermore, as a writer of web articles myself, I know the content is checked for accuracy prior to publishing (albiet mistakes still happen, but they happen in just about any published material). Therefore, one would think that anything published in Rules of the Game would not violate the official rules.
Arvagor 06-06-06, 04:04 PM	I will refrain from comments on the quality of Skip's "Rules of the Game" articles... ;) As far as the primary/secondary natural attacks go, take a look at page 61, 2nd column of the current (5/24/06) FAQ -- there are many Q&A regarding the nature of primary and secondary attacks and how they interact with manufactured weaponry and others