| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| lavyan02-01-07, 06:37 PM | I have a first level druid and have a few questions: 1. What magic items can a druid use while wild shaped? The LGCS says that animals can use: A. Barding – not applicable B. Collar/Necklace – does this mean a druid can wear any necklace and WS? C. Cloak - does this mean a druid can wear any cloak and WS? 2. If 1B is no, would it be safe to assume that there are some collar AR access? 3. How much does Druidic Vestments cost? The DMG item description varies from the table listing? 4. Does a druid’s animal companion have to abide by the druid ‘no metal’ barding? 5. Is it safe to assume a wolf can wear MW stud leather (or leather if #3 is yes) with no penalties, MW stud leather has a -0 armor check penalty? 6. Does MW stud leather barding cost 200gp and leather 170gp? 7. Are there any animal companions that have armor proficiency, I couldn’t find any? Any helpful comments? Thanks, Lavyan |
| Sieylianna02-01-07, 07:10 PM | I have a first level druid and have a few questions: 1. What magic items can a druid use while wild shaped? The LGCS says that animals can use: A. Barding – not applicable B. Collar/Necklace – does this mean a druid can wear any necklace and WS? C. Cloak - does this mean a druid can wear any cloak and WS? A druid in wild shape can use any of these items, but you must remove the item before you wild shape; otherwise, the items meld into your new form. Note that if you remove your periapt of wisdom, you lose any bonus spells that it provides. Ed |
| JJeff02-01-07, 07:46 PM | I have a first level druid and have a few questions: 1. What magic items can a druid use while wild shaped? The LGCS says that animals can use: A. Barding – not applicable B. Collar/Necklace – does this mean a druid can wear any necklace and WS? C. Cloak - does this mean a druid can wear any cloak and WS? What Sieylianna said... Item that are on you before you WS meld into your new form and don't give you bonuses. Items worn after you WS apply. Which comes to the question I never heard an answer for: Can you have 2 sets of items? One for your normal shape and one for your WS-ed form and when you WS between them, you actually shange gear since one set melds in and the other set melds out? 2. If 1B is no, would it be safe to assume that there are some collar AR access? I can't say..... 3. How much does Druidic Vestments cost? The DMG item description varies from the table listing? Item description trumps table listing. 4. Does a druid’s animal companion have to abide by the druid ‘no metal’ barding? Err.... I would think so... no rules exactly,. but it would make sense.. 5. Is it safe to assume a wolf can wear MW stud leather (or leather if #4 is yes) with no penalties, MW stud leather has a -0 armor check penalty? Yes, it is safe to assume that. 6. Does MW stud leather barding cost 200gp and leather 170gp? 7. Are there any animal companions that have armor proficiency, I couldn’t find any? None.... The rule lawyers are still out argueing on that. Any helpful comments? Thanks, Lavyan Helpful comments? Play simple, saves you lots of headache when playing a druid, else you have obscure spell rules, animal handling rules, riding rules, WS rules etc to rememorise and argue with judges about. |
| clannagh02-01-07, 08:16 PM | I have a first level druid and have a few questions: 1. What magic items can a druid use while wild shaped? The LGCS says that animals can use: A. Barding – not applicable B. Collar/Necklace – does this mean a druid can wear any necklace and WS? C. Cloak - does this mean a druid can wear any cloak and WS? 2. If 1B is no, would it be safe to assume that there are some collar AR access? 3. How much does Druidic Vestments cost? The DMG item description varies from the table listing? 4. Does a druid’s animal companion have to abide by the druid ‘no metal’ barding? 5. Is it safe to assume a wolf can wear MW stud leather (or leather if #3 is yes) with no penalties, MW stud leather has a -0 armor check penalty? 6. Does MW stud leather barding cost 200gp and leather 170gp? 7. Are there any animal companions that have armor proficiency, I couldn’t find any? Any helpful comments? Thanks, Lavyan There are no specific rules against metal barding and in 3.5 the druid can even use metal weapons. The no metal barding seems to be a carry over from 3.0 but even then it wasnt actaully banned. Its a role play thing and most druids have the attitude that you would protect your animal companian as best you can. After all druids do not refuse to party with fighters wearing full plate. Some RPGA judges apparently penalise you role play experience for using metal barding as "out of character" but that is definitely not standard and usually gives rise to complaints and most people quite rightly refuse to play with that judges again. This issue comes up regularly but I suspect that circle regard it as a D&D core rule question and hence outside their jurisdiction. If you do decide to avoid metal .. bear in mind the same GM's will also knock you back on studded leather because of the metal studs. The matter of armor profiency with barding is controversial. This much is clear .. standard animals are NOT proficient and take the armor check penalty against attack rolls. Warhorses and wardogs are not as clear cut. Some people argue "trained for war" includes armor feat (using a complex arguement calling on other references in other books) but there is table variation. To be 100% safe take mithral chain barding (no check penalty) if you are prepared to use metal barding or some non metal barding that has no check penalty if you want to avoid metal for role paly reasons. |
| bitznarf02-01-07, 08:47 PM | A druid in wild shape can use any of these items, but you must remove the item before you wild shape; otherwise, the items meld into your new form. Note that if you remove your periapt of wisdom, you lose any bonus spells that it provides. Ed I don't believe this is accurate. Wild shape is based on polymorph, which is based on alter self. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Thus any items that can be worn by the new form (cloak, neck slot) still work. Any other items (armor, weapons, boots, vests, and so on) merge with you, becoming nonfunctional. -Dale |
| copper_wyrmling02-01-07, 09:01 PM | Warhorses and wardogs are not as clear cut. Some people argue "trained for war" includes armor feat (using a complex arguement calling on other references in other books) but there is table variation. That's not actually the issue... the Monster Manual, which is the primary reference for animals / animal companions, describes animals as "proficient with no armor unless trained for war". That implies that animals trained for war are proficient with at least some armor. I don't see that as a particularly complex argument ;) The problem is that "trained for war" is not actually defined anywhere, although iirc the LGCS says you can make riding dogs war-trained by using one of their trick slots. Your conclusion regarding table variation is correct though :( On the other questions: I didn't think that necklaces and cloaks melded, but I could be wrong. As far as I know, there is nothing in the PHB that stops druidic animal companions from wearing metal barding: druids can't wear metal armor because it violates their oaths and interferes with their mystical connection to nature, but their animals are incapable of swearing oaths and don't have to worry about losing druidic powers ;) |
| clannagh02-01-07, 09:16 PM | That's not actually the issue... the Monster Manual, which is the primary reference for animals / animal companions, describes animals as "proficient with no armor unless trained for war". That implies that animals trained for war are proficient with at least some armor. I don't see that as a particularly complex argument ;) The problem is that "trained for war" is not actually defined anywhere, although iirc the LGCS says you can make riding dogs war-trained by using one of their trick slots. Your conclusion regarding table variation is correct though :( On the other questions: I didn't think that necklaces and cloaks melded, but I could be wrong. As far as I know, there is nothing in the PHB that stops druidic animal companions from wearing metal barding: druids can't wear metal armor because it violates their oaths and interferes with their mystical connection to nature, but their animals are incapable of swearing oaths and don't have to worry about losing druidic powers ;) hey copper :) a short and simple version of the rules lawyer argument for them being profient goes like this: 1. From Handle Animal Skill in PHB .... "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose." 2. From Animal Type .. Monster Manual 3.5 ... "Proficient with no armor unless trained for war." # 1. states they require no extra training which implies trained for war and # 2. implies that if trained for war they ARE proficient Note there are FAR to many "implies" sneaking in there. If nothing else negating #2 does not confirm the opposite its a logical fallacy. Though i would say the argument indicates they should be trained for war .. but by RAW it is doubtful. The melding issue as far as i know is one of the things that changed in errata. From memory in LG they do not meld is they can be worn but after errata they do meld. But do not quote me on that I have not looked it up and am probably totally wrong. |
| bitznarf02-01-07, 09:18 PM | but their animals are incapable of swearing oaths and don't have to worry about losing druidic powers ;) Oooo, an awakened animal with levels in druid. No more having to worry about getting the 'wild' enhancement on your armor, just wear barding. :plotting: :schemes: (not in LG, but still) |
| Japangirl02-01-07, 10:44 PM | Well, LG doesn't use the polymorph errata so I'm pretty sure you get to choose what does and doesn't meld. Thus, a wild shaped druid would get to have a necklace (of Wis or of Con), a cloak (resistance, displacement, mountebank, pick something), and ioun stones. |
| JamesMaissen02-02-07, 02:03 AM | I have a first level druid and have a few questions: 1. What magic items can a druid use while wild shaped? The LGCS says that animals can use: A. Barding – not applicable B. Collar/Necklace – does this mean a druid can wear any necklace and WS? C. Cloak - does this mean a druid can wear any cloak and WS? A druid can use unslotted items (ioun stones, pearls of power, etc) as well as barding (should someone put the armor on them), neck items and cloaks. When a druid wildshapes the items that they cannot wear in the new form meld or drop just as if they had been polymorphed. Becareful in that LG doesn't use the newest wildshape/poly rulings in 3.5. 3. How much does Druidic Vestments cost? The DMG item description varies from the table listing? Description trumps table baring an errata or specific ruling to the contrary. 4. Does a druid’s animal companion have to abide by the druid ‘no metal’ barding? Only if the companion has druid levels and wishes them to be active that day. 5. Is it safe to assume a wolf can wear MW stud leather (or leather if #3 is yes) with no penalties, MW stud leather has a -0 armor check penalty? If it's medium sized nonhumanoid armor (ie barding) then yes. Likewise assuming weight for encumberance, etc. 6. Does MW stud leather barding cost 200gp and leather 170gp? Yes, the 'extra' 150gp is added after the multipliers for size and being nonhumanoid. 7. Are there any animal companions that have armor proficiency, I couldn’t find any? They would either need to be trained for war (see the animal type entry in the back of the MM) or take the feats through HD advancement. Any helpful comments? Thanks, Lavyan Druids take a good deal of preparation to play well. You will handle many creatures on the board when you play a druid: the druid him/herself, the companion, any animals brought with you and whatever you summon on top of all of that. It is essential that you have all the stats for all of them ready and available for you. Done right your turn can take less time than the player next to you dithering about what they should be doing. There will be some variation on what you can and cannot do as proxy for your trained animals. Best way to handle this is to have a system for how they behaive and run it past a new judge before a combat occurs. Also you can understand how the judge sees things and come to terms with it while not in the middle of combat. I would suggest index cards with all your possible summons, and places to expand them for std buffs you might give them. Then have multiple dice to handle claw/claw/bite routines so as to make one animal's attacks go by quickly (NB if the claws have improved grab then you need to do each sequentially). There is a LG druids yahoo group that you might wish to join and talk with the people there about tricks of the trade so to speak. Lastly, don't multiclass. Druid is it's own prestige class and doesn't need any help.. it will only dillute things for you. -James |
| lavyan02-03-07, 08:10 AM | Thanks for all the help everyone! There seems to be a lot of grey areas for a druid? I don't think that I am going use 'neckware' after I WS, there could be an arguement made that a necklace is not a collar. I do plan on using cloaks, with table variation expected. I would think that if a judge would not allow the use of a cloak, I could always just take the cloak off, then WS, and put the cloak back on? That plan would not work to well in combat, but it would be an option. I also plan to use non-slotted items. There is a LG druids yahoo group that you might wish to join and talk with the people there about tricks of the trade so to speak. I searched, but could not find. Just found it!!! Thanks again, Lavyan |
| gbuchold02-03-07, 04:00 PM | Doesn't matter if a necklace is a collar. An animal that has a neck can wear any neck-slot item, not just collars; as long as you WS into something that has a neck, your necklace remains on it. For that matter, humanoids can wear collars; it's just that, generally, there's no reason to do so. |
| Arvagor02-03-07, 08:16 PM | If you do decide to avoid metal .. bear in mind the same GM's will also knock you back on studded leather because of the metal studs.If you/the GM presume that the animal should abide by the same restrictions as the druid, then that's a perfectly fair ruling; after all, a druid isn't permitted to wear studded leather either. |
| qstor02-07-07, 07:58 PM | "-Polymorph rules changed to new rules, druids get a rebuild - see DC" Be warned from the new LGCS rules. Mike |
| clannagh02-07-07, 08:06 PM | "-Polymorph rules changed to new rules, druids get a rebuild - see DC" Be warned from the new LGCS rules. Mike looks like MoMF is gone as well |
| _m_02-07-07, 10:25 PM | looks like MoMF is gone as well looks like druids are gone. |
| Reska02-07-07, 10:27 PM | looks like druids are gone. I dunno...I'll still play mine. I Wildshape rarely as it is. |
| Majoru Oakheart02-07-07, 11:10 PM | looks like druids are gone. Not really. They've just been brought down to the level they were meant to be. From everything I've read it's clear to me that Druids are were originally meant to be divine casters with the minor ability to change into an animal to use some of their useful abilities (hawk to fly, bear for strength, fish to swim underwater, etc). Instead, due to people combining rules in ways the designers didn't expect, Druids ended up being able to combine ALL the useful features of their normal form with all of the benefits of of whatever animal they chose while negating any physical disadvantage they had. So, the designers fixed this (mostly) with an errata, where all of your equipment melded into you when you wildshaped so that you couldn't stack the benefits of all of your equipment with that of wildshape. We just weren't using the errata until now. As for previous questions. If you read the errata, wildshape is now based on Alternate Form from the MM, not Polymorph. All equipment you have on you when you change into animal form melds in and becomes nonfunctional. All equipment you have on when you change back into your normal form falls to the ground. Keep in mind, the other thing. Your hitpoints stay the same when you wildshape, no matter what your new con score is. Chris Wachal POC - Ket Triad |
| Japangirl02-08-07, 12:18 AM | The polymorph errata completely destroyed the high level tank who plays all the high level games with us. Thanks to the polymorph errata, he is stuck with 8 Con at all times, and unable to effectively tank. He presumably does get to still use his Wild fullplate and tower shield, but without hit points to back it up is unable to play. Additonally, his neck slot, which animals can use, would meld, making his Amulet of Wisdom +4 completely worthless unless he never came out of bear form, something that he cannot do in towns and cities. Also, animals can wear cloaks, so those shouldn't meld either, but they do. This renders the 24k spent on a Cloak of Minor Displacement wasted gold as well. He is a Druid 7/Nature's Warrior 5/Monk 1 right now, so casts as a 9th level druid with Practiced Spellcaster (up to 5th level spells, caster level 13). In other words, he gave up significant spellcasting power in order to tank, so what the LGCS is doing to him is rendering his character unplayable when he was never broken to begin with. Why can't the Circle grandfather in druids who can currently wild shape with the old rules? Or at least not destroy wildshaping so utterly. Or, if not that, at least allow a full and complete rebuild INCLUDING STATS so that druids who depended on wildshaping to fix a critical physical weakness of their builds can at least fix it by changing mental stats to physical stats. The level druids were meant to be is shown by such PrCs as Master of Many Forms, Warshaper, and Nature's Warrior. These classes trade spellcasting for the ability to massively improve wildshaping abilities as tanks and damage dealers. Taking these options away from druids doesn't balance them, it weakens them from balanced powerful to extremely limited in options and much weaker than they should be. |
| CSHunt6802-08-07, 12:21 AM | It was always INCREDIBLY SILLY that Druids should be the best tanks in the game practically 24/7 - on top of full spellcasting and all their abilities. It was silly, and it's good to see that go. |
| Japangirl02-08-07, 12:27 AM | It was always INCREDIBLY SILLY that Druids should be the best tanks in the game practically 24/7 - on top of full spellcasting and all their abilities. It was silly, and it's good to see that go. They can't get full spellcasting and tank! That's what I'm trying to show! All the PrCs that allow for tanking don't give full spellcasting, and most don't give any. Also, without significant monetary investment, druids don't make good tanks. It takes Wild armor, which means at least +4. Don't say such things unless you think you can back it up, and I'm fairly sure that you can't. It's ignorant comments like that that get solid but unbroken builds nerfed. BTW, druids can only use cloaks, necklaces/collars, and ioun stones in animal form. They also can't get around DR/any material, and require spells (Align Fang and Magic Fang) to get around any other form of DR. There are significant restrictions on druid tanking power, and if that is the role they choose they are not full casters. Please please don't say that things should go until you have fully researched them. |
| Britt02-08-07, 12:28 AM | Why can't the Circle grandfather in druids who can currently wild shape with the old rules? Or at least not destroy wildshaping so utterly. Or, if not that, at least allow a full and complete rebuild INCLUDING STATS so that druids who depended on wildshaping to fix a critical physical weakness of their builds can at least fix it by changing mental stats to physical stats. First, you haven't seen the DC yet, so you have no idea what this has done to druids. Second, we can't grandfather them because we don't do that. If we change the rules it changes for everyone. This is a core rule and it was an oddity that we weren't using it. We have corrected that. There are problems that go with that, but we're doing what we can to minimize them. |
| clannagh02-08-07, 12:29 AM | It was always INCREDIBLY SILLY that Druids should be the best tanks in the game practically 24/7 - on top of full spellcasting and all their abilities. It was silly, and it's good to see that go. I am offended by that. I mainly play fighter builds and it seems to me most of the complaints about fighters being weak as a class come from people who do no understand how to build and use the class properly. They seem to think making the "clever" initial choice of fighter should mean they get the ultimate killing machine without worrying about juggling feats Prc's and skill points to get what they need. There is nothing wrong with a well built and well played fighter .. its just a lot of fighter classes are built and played by newbie would be power builders who get it wrong. Aside from which the game was never meant to be a competition between the players WoW PvP style .. its meant to be a co-operative effort against the challenges .. in which case who cares if one class is more powerful than another. |
| CSHunt6802-08-07, 12:38 AM | Druids, up until now, have been more effective tanks than non-spellcasting classes - or, at least arguably, _comparably effective_. That this was the case was a ridiculous overextension of the shapechanging notion. The statement that this isn't a competition between players is meaningless, as pains are taken to ensure that grossly imbalanced items are removed from the campaign. |
| Sieylianna02-08-07, 07:45 AM | looks like druids are gone. I have to agree. When the "alternate form" errata first came out about a year ago, I pointed out that druids were unplayable in LG under those rules. I haven't seen anything to change my mind and I now have a 12th level druid who has been hung out to dry. Ed |
| Mortepierre02-08-07, 07:59 AM | I have to agree. When the "alternate form" errata first came out about a year ago, I pointed out that druids were unplayable in LG under those rules. I haven't seen anything to change my mind and I now have a 12th level druid who has been hung out to dry. I disagree. Our regular druidess specializes in summoning (she has Augment Summoning too). The horde of creatures she brings to any battle have turned the tide more times than I can remember. If anything, my conjurer specialist is jealous of her (my creatures for SMI to III :censored: compared to hers for SNAI to III). It's only now that I can finally summon Archons that things have started to balance. Anyone telling me my druidic companion isn't worth anything anymore deserve a few rounds alone with her pet dire wolves... Simply put: just because one-trick-pony druids have been balanced (alright, "nerfed" if it can make you feel better) doesn't mean all druids have become worthless. Learn to cope, adapt, and live on. |
| Itsa_Trika02-08-07, 08:04 AM | I have to agree. When the "alternate form" errata first came out about a year ago, I pointed out that druids were unplayable in LG under those rules. I haven't seen anything to change my mind and I now have a 12th level druid who has been hung out to dry. Ed On the other hand, this has absolutely no impact on my 9th level druid. --Joe |
| Majoru Oakheart02-08-07, 08:13 AM | I have to agree. When the "alternate form" errata first came out about a year ago, I pointed out that druids were unplayable in LG under those rules. I haven't seen anything to change my mind and I now have a 12th level druid who has been hung out to dry. I'm sorry if I missed something, but what in the new rules makes them unplayable? What prevents them from healing the party, buffing the party, using an animal companion to attack the enemies, attacking the enemies in their humanoid form or even wildshaping into a bear or dire bear and ripping a lot of enemies to shreds? Is it because you can no longer get an AC of 38 by wearing bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, taking a level of monk, and then buffing yourself? I think being able to increase my strength to 31 and get 2 claws and a bite is worth the trade off of lowering my AC to 17. Chris Wachal |
| Zodar602-08-07, 08:17 AM | I think being able to increase my strength to 31 and get 2 claws and a bite is worth the trade off of lowering my AC to 17. Chris Wachal Not if I lower my AC to 17 with only ~80 hp because my CON-change doesn't change my hp anymore. I'd be dead before I even got to most of the monsters/bad guys at higher APLs. |
| Sieylianna02-08-07, 08:35 AM | Simply put: just because one-trick-pony druids have been balanced (alright, "nerfed" if it can make you feel better) doesn't mean all druids have become worthless. Learn to cope, adapt, and live on. How about this. One trick summoners are still fine. Any other druid who wants to use his wild shape (not even in combat) is screwed because they lose all the continuing effects of their magic when it melds. I.e. if I wild shape at any point during a module, I lose any bonus spells from a periapt of wisdom until the next time I regain spells. What this change means is that a wizard can cast fly at no detriment, but a druid who wild shapes has become totally impotent. I don't think my PC has gone into melee in wildshape in 2-3 levels, mostly I wild shape and cast spells. That is no longer possible under these rules. Ed |
| Larthos02-08-07, 09:34 AM | Not really. They've just been brought down to the level they were meant to be. From everything I've read it's clear to me that Druids are were originally meant to be divine casters with the minor ability to change into an animal to use some of their useful abilities (hawk to fly, bear for strength, fish to swim underwater, etc). Instead, due to people combining rules in ways the designers didn't expect, Druids ended up being able to combine ALL the useful features of their normal form with all of the benefits of of whatever animal they chose while negating any physical disadvantage they had. So, the designers fixed this (mostly) with an errata, where all of your equipment melded into you when you wildshaped so that you couldn't stack the benefits of all of your equipment with that of wildshape. We just weren't using the errata until now. As for previous questions. If you read the errata, wildshape is now based on Alternate Form from the MM, not Polymorph. All equipment you have on you when you change into animal form melds in and becomes nonfunctional. All equipment you have on when you change back into your normal form falls to the ground. Keep in mind, the other thing. Your hitpoints stay the same when you wildshape, no matter what your new con score is. Chris Wachal POC - Ket Triad Well looks to me like multiclassing should be the next thing to go since people do it in ways the designers didn't expect. No more deepwarden\pios templar or Occult Slayer dip builds for those tanks. Lets get rid of the casters being able to dip into fatespinner also since it gets a little more than the straight wizard would have been able to get. Lets nerf Radient Servant while we are at it because it enhances pretty much everything a cleric does without really taking anything away. Powergamers exist in this game. If the designers wish to make needless changes to the game system in response to everything that powergamers use then we are in for a gamesystem of neverending errata. Then again we have some of the mods that are written by these same powergamers that combine templates in a way that the designers didn't envision in order to create encounters that are tougher than their EL would indicate. That is the beauty and the curse of LG. Anytime you get as many people participating in a world as LG has then the different gaming styles will show themselves. It is one of the things that make it fun, but at the same time how many new players have we seen that start a character without understanding all the ins and outs of the rules. They write up what they think would be fun, but it is far from optimal. They will keep that character since it was their first, but not far behind it they will write up a new character after getting advice from everyone in order to optimize their character. |
| Mortepierre02-08-07, 09:40 AM | Any other druid who wants to use his wild shape (not even in combat) is screwed because they lose all the continuing effects of their magic when it melds. I.e. if I wild shape at any point during a module, I lose any bonus spells from a periapt of wisdom until the next time I regain spells. What this change means is that a wizard can cast fly at no detriment, but a druid who wild shapes has become totally impotent. I don't think my PC has gone into melee in wildshape in 2-3 levels, mostly I wild shape and cast spells. That is no longer possible under these rules. They're not screwed. Their buff spells (and those they can receive from others) are still fine. Yes, your items no longer work (except if you have a round or two during which friends put them back on your new shape) but that's hardly what I call "screwed", especially if you didn't wildshape to enter melee combat in the first place. Natural Spell still works fine too. So, we have a druid who enjoys a few less "manufactured" bonus and doesn't get as many hit points as he used to. He still can fight better than any arcane caster, still can cast all his spells, and now he even regains hit pts when using Wildshape. Is that what qualifies as "totally impotent" for you? |
| RedKnightofKet02-08-07, 09:59 AM | What is the "widlshape" people speak of? OH, that's what I do when my Druid 6/BM 1/ Halfling Outrider 2 does when his companion dies... Yeah, I remember doing that once....:P Seriously, though, folks: Let's just wait for the DC to see what the Druid rebuild options are like. If you can reassign stats, then the CON 8 isn't an issue. If you can change PrC choices, then those aren't issues either. It's unfortunate that the DC hasn't come out about this issue yet, but this LGCS hasn't gone live yet.... |
| Itsa_Trika02-08-07, 10:41 AM | How about this. One trick summoners are still fine. Any other druid who wants to use his wild shape (not even in combat) is screwed because they lose all the continuing effects of their magic when it melds. I.e. if I wild shape at any point during a module, I lose any bonus spells from a periapt of wisdom until the next time I regain spells. Ed Ed, other than bonus spells from a Periapt of Wisdom, what other spells does wildshaping negate? Although it's certainly a pain in the ass (and one I hope they fix in future iterations of the rules) to have a class ability negatively impact the class in this way, I don't see any other examples of how wildshaping causes the character's magic to disappear. |
| Itsa_Trika02-08-07, 10:43 AM | Although I'm not usually a fan of solutions that "fix" characters following a rules change, having an additional set of items worn on the druid's animal shape that appear when he wildshaped piqued my imagination. It might be a decent compromise for those people that are so upset by this change. It would require the purchase of a second set of items, but then you wouldn't deal with the hassle of losing spells from a periapt (if you had a periapt of equivalent bonuses). |
| Itsa_Trika02-08-07, 10:51 AM | Although I'm not usually a fan of solutions that "fix" characters following a rules change, having an additional set of items worn on the druid's animal shape that appear when he wildshaped piqued my imagination. It might be a decent compromise for those people that are so upset by this change. It would require the purchase of a second set of items, but then you wouldn't deal with the hassle of losing spells from a periapt (if you had a periapt of equivalent bonuses). Unfortunately this solution is refuted by the errata, as any items worn by the druid while in animal form fall off when he wild shapes back to his humanoid form. |
| blood_kite02-08-07, 01:37 PM | Someone asked Britt about whether wildshaped druids keep their neck and cloak slot items because animals still have the slots according to the new LGCS. Britt seemed to indicate that druids should keep those slots and that the LGCS will be edited to include that, or that he's clarifying it to say druids get screwed. Question: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11426317&postcount=375 Answer: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11426481&postcount=377 |
| Britt02-08-07, 01:39 PM | Someone asked Britt about whether wildshaped druids keep their neck and cloak slot items because animals still have the slots according to the new LGCS. Britt seemed to indicate that druids should keep those slots and that the LGCS will be edited to include that. No, they do not get those slots. The new text says: Equipment does not automatically resize unless specifically stated otherwise by the effect. If you change size and the effect does not state what happens to your items, only items in the following slots continue to function normally: cloak, amulet/brooch, and weapons. All other items either fall off or are absorbed into your new form and cease to function. |
| Mortepierre02-08-07, 01:58 PM | only items in the following slots continue to function normally: cloak, amulet/brooch, and weapons. All other items either fall off or are absorbed into your new form and cease to function. Since a Periapt of Wisdom falls into the same slot as an Amulet/Brooch, this means it's not absorbed and continues to work as intended. There goes one of the biggest argument against the errata. Well done Britt! |
| ZX67002-08-07, 02:03 PM | It was always INCREDIBLY SILLY that Druids should be the best tanks in the game practically 24/7 - on top of full spellcasting and all their abilities. It was silly, and it's good to see that go. Clerics could do this easier, and wouldn't have to take a Heavy Armor feat to do so. They aren't being touched. Hrmmm. Oh, they also get full healing spell progression where we lose 2nd level. We get more boom spells, sure, but, in your argument, if we're tanking, we aren't going to be casting those spells. I don't think we were out of line pre-errata with what a cleric is capable of still. |
| Britt02-08-07, 02:06 PM | Since a Periapt of Wisdom falls into the same slot as an Amulet/Brooch, this means it's not absorbed and continues to work as intended. There goes one of the biggest argument against the errata. Well done Britt! Except you missed the first part of that sentence: "If you change size and the effect does not state what happens to your items" If the effect states what happens, as wild shape does, you go with that. The goal is to stay close to the core rules. |
| CSHunt6802-08-07, 02:08 PM | Clerics could do this easier, and wouldn't have to take a Heavy Armor feat to do so. They aren't being touched. Hrmmm. Clerics aren't being touched? ... You haven't been keeping up with things, have you? ;) |
| arpster02-08-07, 02:12 PM | No, they do not get those slots. The new text says: Equipment does not automatically resize unless specifically stated otherwise by the effect. If you change size and the effect does not state what happens to your items, only items in the following slots continue to function normally: cloak, amulet/brooch, and weapons. All other items either fall off or are absorbed into your new form and cease to function. So does this mean the periapt of wisdom that you are wearing still functions while in whildshape form? I think it that is what you are saying but just want to be sure. On another note: Under the new Alternate Form Errata looks like you lose the racial bonuses for skills that druids use to get when in the new animal form. Is this true? I think it is since you now retain your type and subtype were as before you got the type animal in most cases as a druid. Thanks Mel |
| ZX67002-08-07, 02:16 PM | Clerics aren't being touched? ... You haven't been keeping up with things, have you? ;) If you're talking about DSP, most tanking clerics would never have such a feat. |
| blood_kite02-08-07, 02:32 PM | Except you missed the first part of that sentence: "If you change size and the effect does not state what happens to your items" If the effect states what happens, as wild shape does, you go with that. The goal is to stay close to the core rules. So druids are back to casting Owl's Wisdom, taking off their periapt +4, wildshaping, and putting their periapt back on. Joy. |
| CSHunt6802-08-07, 02:36 PM | If you're talking about DSP, most tanking clerics would never have such a feat. And lots of Druids don't wildshape or tank. So? |
| ZX67002-08-07, 02:46 PM | And lots of Druids don't wildshape or tank. So? My argument about this is in response to those who are saying this change needed to come about because of hack druids who are better tanks than any Ftr tank. Well, clerics can do so more easily than druids ever could, but their tanking abilities aren't being affected. So? So I'll just assume you completely missed my point. |
| CSHunt6802-08-07, 03:36 PM | No, not even close. Druids don't (didn't) need in-combat buffs to do it - Clerics do. Next? |
| Dominick02-08-07, 03:44 PM | No, they do not get those slots. The new text says: Equipment does not automatically resize unless specifically stated otherwise by the effect. If you change size and the effect does not state what happens to your items, only items in the following slots continue to function normally: cloak, amulet/brooch, and weapons. All other items either fall off or are absorbed into your new form and cease to function. Dang it, I didnt see this, sorry Britt! This is a good change :-) |
| ZX67002-08-07, 03:55 PM | No, not even close. Druids don't (didn't) need in-combat buffs to do it - Clerics do. Next? Incorrect. I know a cleric/tank who's AC does not change with his buff spells, and only needs one buff spell in order to ramp his damage up considerably. With his Mobile Spellcasting feat, he can cast this spell in between 2 moves (in 1 round) to get up to the monsters. All other abilities he uses are free actions (smite, strength domain) and do not effect his ability to 'get ready' for a combat. Anything else you got in there? |
| CSHunt6802-08-07, 03:57 PM | So, you're comparing a Cleric who has specialized (spent precious Domains, Feats) on melee combat, to a generic Druid? ... Nope, I got nothing else. |
| ZX67002-08-07, 04:03 PM | So, you're comparing a Cleric who has specialized (spent precious Domains, Feats) on melee combat, to a generic Druid? ... Nope, I got nothing else. A druid would have to take certain feats and such to do the same. There's no way I could tank with my featset/statset/equipmentset currently. It'd take access to items I don't have and have never had access to, money I no longer have due to other things I've purchased and feats I don't have to do so. I'd consider that requiring specialization. |
| Japangirl02-08-07, 05:41 PM | So, you're comparing a Cleric who has specialized (spent precious Domains, Feats) on melee combat, to a generic Druid? ... Nope, I got nothing else. Actually, he's comparing a cleric who built for tanking to a druid who built for tanking. Both decided to take feats, classes, domains (for the cleric), and equipment that aided their tanking to the detriment of other options. |
| ZX67002-08-07, 05:59 PM | Actually, he's comparing a cleric who built for tanking to a druid who built for tanking. Both decided to take feats, classes, domains (for the cleric), and equipment that aided their tanking to the detriment of other options. Precisely! :D |
| Majoru Oakheart02-08-07, 06:16 PM | Not if I lower my AC to 17 with only ~80 hp because my CON-change doesn't change my hp anymore. I'd be dead before I even got to most of the monsters/bad guys at higher APLs. My cleric at level 14 has only a 22 AC and 80 hit points and I go into melee all of the time. Against certain enemies, I avoid it, however, since I KNOW they will kill me outright. Those same enemies normally nearly kill the fighters every round of combat and I'm stuck healing them continuously anyways. Plus, as a druid you have a number of spell effects you can put up before(or with natural spell, DURING) wildshaping that will keep your AC high. Barkskin, Cat's Grace, and some others. Plus you can cast Bear's Endurance. You cast them, then run into melee with a 25 or so AC with bonus hit points. It now just takes a round or two of buffing before running in instead of naturally getting all of those bonuses due to equipment. Or, you can do the same thing, pretty much, as a cleric if you don't wildshape and use buffs and equipment instead. Chris Wachal POC - Ket Triad |
| Divine Dwarf02-08-07, 06:17 PM | Incorrect. I know a cleric/tank who's AC does not change with his buff spells, and only needs one buff spell in order to ramp his damage up considerably. With his Mobile Spellcasting feat, he can cast this spell in between 2 moves (in 1 round) to get up to the monsters. All other abilities he uses are free actions (smite, strength domain) and do not effect his ability to 'get ready' for a combat. Anything else you got in there? yeah gotta agree with CS righteous might and divine power, barring use of quickened spell just to be almost as good as +19 Claw/Claw +13 bite improved grab nah |
| Majoru Oakheart02-08-07, 06:27 PM | Well looks to me like multiclassing should be the next thing to go since people do it in ways the designers didn't expect. No more deepwarden\pios templar or Occult Slayer dip builds for those tanks. Lets get rid of the casters being able to dip into fatespinner also since it gets a little more than the straight wizard would have been able to get. Lets nerf Radient Servant while we are at it because it enhances pretty much everything a cleric does without really taking anything away. I believe nearly all of those things were discussed at one point or another as things we might possible do in the future. So, they are all good recommendations. If you check Britt's post in this forum about "Discussion of LGCS 597CY changes" or something like that. He has a summary of what has and hasn't changed in the new LGCS. It includes "No min PrC levels". There's reason for that. Other D&D campaigns enforce a minimum number of levels in a PrC so that you can't dip one level. This didn't happen this year. But it might at any time. And Radiant Servant IS too powerful. Chris Wachal POC - Ket Triad |
| ZX67002-08-07, 06:28 PM | yeah gotta agree with CS righteous might and divine power, barring use of quickened spell just to be almost as good as +19 Claw/Claw +13 bite improved grab nah The cleric I am speaking of, with only Divine Power, can deal upwards of 50 points of damage per hit in a single round, non-crit smite. His to hits are better, after power attacking for ~8, than what you list, and he won't be charging for an extra +2. He doesn't have improved grab, but I'm betting he does more damage. Especially when the druid is up against a construct or other DR the druid can't pass, because the cleric certainly can. I'm also pretty sure his buffed AC is better than most tanking druids, but I'd have to see the numbers to be sure. Edit: Also, you're assuming the druid will be in the right animal form at the beginning of combat, which may or may not be the case, so that's either a move or standard action to change, depending on if you have Fast Wild Shape, equaling a spell cast for the cleric. It also takes into account the druid will have barkskin up, which is also not a given, as even with an extend, barkskin won't last all day, and I'm sure the others in a druid's party will want some AC lovin' as well. |
| seanovalsun02-08-07, 11:17 PM | Since this looks like the place to post questions about the new wildshape rules, here's my question: Wildshape says all gear becomes nonfunctional. Alternate form says, "the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution." Now, if I have boots of buttkicking include a +2 bonus to Con, Wildshape says that bonus goes away. But Alternate form says my hit points don't change. Do I change into my Wildshape form and then loose my item effects or do I loose my item effects and then change into Wildshape form? Sean :D |
| kjenks02-09-07, 12:23 AM | Fish gotta swim and wizards gotta fly, I gotta love one class til I die. Can't help lovin' that druid of mine. |
| Larthos02-09-07, 06:46 PM | I believe nearly all of those things were discussed at one point or another as things we might possible do in the future. So, they are all good recommendations. If you check Britt's post in this forum about "Discussion of LGCS 597CY changes" or something like that. He has a summary of what has and hasn't changed in the new LGCS. It includes "No min PrC levels". There's reason for that. Other D&D campaigns enforce a minimum number of levels in a PrC so that you can't dip one level. This didn't happen this year. But it might at any time. And Radiant Servant IS too powerful. Chris Wachal POC - Ket Triad What I was trying to get at is that no matter what type of rule that is put in place powergamers will powergame. I played a little XE, and even though there are min PrC levels and all some people still powergame them. Everyone has their own gaming style. Roleplayers will roleplay while rollplayers will rollplay. Just check out these forums and you will see people already discussing how they will have magic items put on them after wildshaping. I personally play a 10 con caster druid (no I don't subscribe to the myth that you must put 6 points into con at character creation in order to be survivable or effective) so my playstyle isn't really affected by the change. The only time I really wildshape is to turn into a bird or something to escape trouble. I do see it as a needless change though because the players who were abusing it will now just find something else to abuse in effect changing nothing while creating more hassle/paperwork for the players who used it honestly. The only problem that I will have with the changes is with my spellsword who used alter self religiously to get the +6 natural armor. I can see and agree with the intention of the change, but I don't see it having the desired effect. |