Druidic Sources [Archive] - Wizards Community

Druidic Sources [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maezer
11-20-07, 04:00 PM "Without any additional documentation, what are the legal sources for animal companions and/or wild shape forms?"

The debates locally seems to be revolving around wether these class features are 'rules options' and thus can be selected from any of the listed books in the LGCS p26.

Thanks for your input.
bitznarf
11-20-07, 04:50 PM As page 26 of the LGCS does not add any choices for animal companions, by default a druid/ranger/beastmaster is limited to those in the PHB. I seem to recall something somewhere saying that without campaign documentation dinosaurs can not be used for either wildshape or animal companions. Can't quite recall where I read that though.

I'm not sure what the debate is about exactly from your post, but I hope the above helps.

Edit: the dino thing for animal companions is found on page 13 of the LGCS.
KarmaInferno
11-20-07, 05:33 PM Strangely, the dino restriction is NOT present for what wild shape forms a druid might take.

:D

-karma
bitznarf
11-20-07, 06:21 PM Hm... I somehow assumed that there was a restriction stated somewhere, perhaps in a DC. I'm going to have to create some new wildshaped char sheets for my druid.
Maezer
11-21-07, 02:30 AM I'm not sure what the debate is about exactly from your post, but I hope the above helps.

Extreme 1: LGCS grants access to "base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and domains." Animals are not listed in the preceding list, nor are there any animals mentioned in the remainder of the appendix. Therefore, no animal is allowed as Companion or Wild Shape.

Extreme 2: LGCS does not restrict sources for animal companions or wild shape forms (beyond no dinosaur companions) then animals presented in the books listed in the LGCS should be available as wildshape targets and/or companions if the rules in such books allow it. This would be akin to having new skill uses described in later books which is allowed as per the FAQ in the LGCS. essentially each new book (where applicable) lists a new use for a given class feature in this case.

The argument usually is limit yourself to the creatures from Monster Manual I, versus limit yourself to the creatures from sources listed in allowed books from the LGCS. Extreme 1, is largely a straw construct, design to be knocked down by those supporting position 2.
Timlagor
11-21-07, 06:03 AM I wouldn't let you wildshape into a dinosaur without documentation -other stuff in MM1 I'd assume you knew what you were allowed to do.
bitznarf
11-21-07, 09:36 AM The rules for using new 'stuff' from new books is not one based on "it doesn't say I can't use it so therefor I can" but on "it doesn't say I can, therefor I can't." There *are* ARs out there that give access to new choices of animal companions, something that would not be needed if everyone could already use all the choices. So yes, alternate choices of animal companion is a rules option.
KarmaInferno
11-21-07, 10:11 AM I wouldn't let you wildshape into a dinosaur without documentation -other stuff in MM1 I'd assume you knew what you were allowed to do.

You mean like the documentation in the form of the PHB?

"Any small or medium animal".

Dinos are creature type Animal.

Animal Companions have a specific restriction against dinosaurs.

Wild Shape does not.

-karma
Jay_Ibero_911
11-21-07, 05:34 PM You mean like the documentation in the form of the PHB?

"Any small or medium animal".

Dinos are creature type Animal.

Animal Companions have a specific restriction against dinosaurs.

Wild Shape does not.

-karma

Actually, Wild Shape itself has a clause that would prevent dinosaur wildshape without some kind of documentation:

Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with....

And since dinosaurs aren't normally found in the wild in the world of greyhawk, you would at the least need a DM's note on an AR stating that you encountered a given dinosaur type before you would be allowed to wild shape into it.
bitznarf
11-21-07, 05:45 PM As far as a I am aware, other rules options that require campaign documentation are specifically called out as needing it, wildshape is not called out in such a manner.
Maezer
11-21-07, 06:29 PM The rules for using new 'stuff' from new books is not one based on "it doesn't say I can't use it so therefor I can" but on "it doesn't say I can, therefor I can't." There *are* ARs out there that give access to new choices of animal companions, something that would not be needed if everyone could already use all the choices. So yes, alternate choices of animal companion is a rules option.

There were restrictions listed in previous LGCS as to what you could polymorph/wild shape into. Also they adressed non-standard, animal companions in previous LGCS. My guess is that your ARs probably were published before the latest version of the LGCS was released.

If you use the standard, its not open unless the LGCS says it open, you are left with something pretty close to Extreme 1, no valid animal forms nor animal companions allowed without documentation.
bitznarf
11-21-07, 06:45 PM The PHB gives you vaild animal companions in the class description. As for wildshape, that is less clear. I'm looking at it.
KarmaInferno
11-22-07, 01:08 AM And since dinosaurs aren't normally found in the wild in the world of greyhawk,

Actually, they are. Some of the southern jungle areas are teeming with dinosaurs.

My retired druid was an Olman from the Amedio Jungle. He grew up among all sorts of the beasties.

There's no rules mechanic in place for determining which animals a druid is "familiar with". I could easily claim that my druid spends all his free time researching animals of all lands. Conversely, as a DM I could require a PC have a relevant knowledge (nature) rank, but that'd be me making up new rules.

-karma
mowaca
11-23-07, 10:55 PM There's no rules mechanic in place for determining which animals a druid is "familiar with".

How about a Knowledge nature check? Plus you always have time after adventures to do stuff, so you do some field work. As a few mentioned, many DMs want Druids to have a reason why they chose a certain form.
JamesMaissen
11-24-07, 02:55 PM How about a Knowledge nature check? Plus you always have time after adventures to do stuff, so you do some field work. As a few mentioned, many DMs want Druids to have a reason why they chose a certain form.

Because in a shared campaign such tack on rules should not be encouraged if not done across the board (and rarely at that).

I know I have trouble recalling which creatures each of my characters have faced (I recall I've faced such a creature in LG, but recalling if a specific character has is problematic).

As to Dinosaurs, Greyhawk has them and LG has included them in modules. Why there is even a restriction on animal companions is a mystery to me.

-James
mowaca
11-24-07, 07:13 PM "Without any additional documentation, what are the legal sources for animal companions and/or wild shape forms?"

The debates locally seems to be revolving around wether these class features are 'rules options' and thus can be selected from any of the listed books in the LGCS p26.

Thanks for your input.

Thinking about this thread, I seem to remember this being explicitly limited to the MM in a previous LGCS. Sure enough, LGCS 4.2 starts the polymorph section with "Only base creatures from the MM are allowable form selections" and Wild shape is addressed in this section. Since polymorph went away they must have missed adding that info to the current LGCS.

I'm curious what your local group want to change into that's so much better than the MM animals?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maezer 11-20-07, 04:00 PM	"Without any additional documentation, what are the legal sources for animal companions and/or wild shape forms?" The debates locally seems to be revolving around wether these class features are 'rules options' and thus can be selected from any of the listed books in the LGCS p26. Thanks for your input.
bitznarf 11-20-07, 04:50 PM	As page 26 of the LGCS does not add any choices for animal companions, by default a druid/ranger/beastmaster is limited to those in the PHB. I seem to recall something somewhere saying that without campaign documentation dinosaurs can not be used for either wildshape or animal companions. Can't quite recall where I read that though. I'm not sure what the debate is about exactly from your post, but I hope the above helps. Edit: the dino thing for animal companions is found on page 13 of the LGCS.
KarmaInferno 11-20-07, 05:33 PM	Strangely, the dino restriction is NOT present for what wild shape forms a druid might take. :D -karma
bitznarf 11-20-07, 06:21 PM	Hm... I somehow assumed that there was a restriction stated somewhere, perhaps in a DC. I'm going to have to create some new wildshaped char sheets for my druid.
Maezer 11-21-07, 02:30 AM	I'm not sure what the debate is about exactly from your post, but I hope the above helps. Extreme 1: LGCS grants access to "base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and domains." Animals are not listed in the preceding list, nor are there any animals mentioned in the remainder of the appendix. Therefore, no animal is allowed as Companion or Wild Shape. Extreme 2: LGCS does not restrict sources for animal companions or wild shape forms (beyond no dinosaur companions) then animals presented in the books listed in the LGCS should be available as wildshape targets and/or companions if the rules in such books allow it. This would be akin to having new skill uses described in later books which is allowed as per the FAQ in the LGCS. essentially each new book (where applicable) lists a new use for a given class feature in this case. The argument usually is limit yourself to the creatures from Monster Manual I, versus limit yourself to the creatures from sources listed in allowed books from the LGCS. Extreme 1, is largely a straw construct, design to be knocked down by those supporting position 2.
Timlagor 11-21-07, 06:03 AM	I wouldn't let you wildshape into a dinosaur without documentation -other stuff in MM1 I'd assume you knew what you were allowed to do.
bitznarf 11-21-07, 09:36 AM	The rules for using new 'stuff' from new books is not one based on "it doesn't say I can't use it so therefor I can" but on "it doesn't say I can, therefor I can't." There are ARs out there that give access to new choices of animal companions, something that would not be needed if everyone could already use all the choices. So yes, alternate choices of animal companion is a rules option.
KarmaInferno 11-21-07, 10:11 AM	I wouldn't let you wildshape into a dinosaur without documentation -other stuff in MM1 I'd assume you knew what you were allowed to do. You mean like the documentation in the form of the PHB? "Any small or medium animal". Dinos are creature type Animal. Animal Companions have a specific restriction against dinosaurs. Wild Shape does not. -karma
Jay_Ibero_911 11-21-07, 05:34 PM	You mean like the documentation in the form of the PHB? "Any small or medium animal". Dinos are creature type Animal. Animal Companions have a specific restriction against dinosaurs. Wild Shape does not. -karma Actually, Wild Shape itself has a clause that would prevent dinosaur wildshape without some kind of documentation: Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain hit points as if you had rested for a night. Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.... And since dinosaurs aren't normally found in the wild in the world of greyhawk, you would at the least need a DM's note on an AR stating that you encountered a given dinosaur type before you would be allowed to wild shape into it.
bitznarf 11-21-07, 05:45 PM	As far as a I am aware, other rules options that require campaign documentation are specifically called out as needing it, wildshape is not called out in such a manner.
Maezer 11-21-07, 06:29 PM	The rules for using new 'stuff' from new books is not one based on "it doesn't say I can't use it so therefor I can" but on "it doesn't say I can, therefor I can't." There are ARs out there that give access to new choices of animal companions, something that would not be needed if everyone could already use all the choices. So yes, alternate choices of animal companion is a rules option. There were restrictions listed in previous LGCS as to what you could polymorph/wild shape into. Also they adressed non-standard, animal companions in previous LGCS. My guess is that your ARs probably were published before the latest version of the LGCS was released. If you use the standard, its not open unless the LGCS says it open, you are left with something pretty close to Extreme 1, no valid animal forms nor animal companions allowed without documentation.
bitznarf 11-21-07, 06:45 PM	The PHB gives you vaild animal companions in the class description. As for wildshape, that is less clear. I'm looking at it.
KarmaInferno 11-22-07, 01:08 AM	And since dinosaurs aren't normally found in the wild in the world of greyhawk, Actually, they are. Some of the southern jungle areas are teeming with dinosaurs. My retired druid was an Olman from the Amedio Jungle. He grew up among all sorts of the beasties. There's no rules mechanic in place for determining which animals a druid is "familiar with". I could easily claim that my druid spends all his free time researching animals of all lands. Conversely, as a DM I could require a PC have a relevant knowledge (nature) rank, but that'd be me making up new rules. -karma
mowaca 11-23-07, 10:55 PM	There's no rules mechanic in place for determining which animals a druid is "familiar with". How about a Knowledge nature check? Plus you always have time after adventures to do stuff, so you do some field work. As a few mentioned, many DMs want Druids to have a reason why they chose a certain form.
JamesMaissen 11-24-07, 02:55 PM	How about a Knowledge nature check? Plus you always have time after adventures to do stuff, so you do some field work. As a few mentioned, many DMs want Druids to have a reason why they chose a certain form. Because in a shared campaign such tack on rules should not be encouraged if not done across the board (and rarely at that). I know I have trouble recalling which creatures each of my characters have faced (I recall I've faced such a creature in LG, but recalling if a specific character has is problematic). As to Dinosaurs, Greyhawk has them and LG has included them in modules. Why there is even a restriction on animal companions is a mystery to me. -James
mowaca 11-24-07, 07:13 PM	"Without any additional documentation, what are the legal sources for animal companions and/or wild shape forms?" The debates locally seems to be revolving around wether these class features are 'rules options' and thus can be selected from any of the listed books in the LGCS p26. Thanks for your input. Thinking about this thread, I seem to remember this being explicitly limited to the MM in a previous LGCS. Sure enough, LGCS 4.2 starts the polymorph section with "Only base creatures from the MM are allowable form selections" and Wild shape is addressed in this section. Since polymorph went away they must have missed adding that info to the current LGCS. I'm curious what your local group want to change into that's so much better than the MM animals?