Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evanta 08-20-07, 04:03 AM	V = Victim (of bull rush) A = Attacker (me) W = Wall O = blank space WWW O V O O A O 1. Can I just bull rush the victim into the wall and proc dungeon crasher's ability for 8d6 dmg + 3X STR? 2. After the manuver, will I be squeezing together with the victim? 3. (edit) Assuming it's the next turn, and the victim does not move, can I move 5ft after the manuver and crash the victim into the wall again (assuming I'm squeezing together with the victim)? 4. If as Jay said, I'm not in the same square, then I can just do the same exact thing again next turn, assuming victim doesn't move?
Jay_Ibero_911 08-20-07, 11:33 AM	V = Victim (of bull rush) A = Attacker (me) W = Wall O = blank space WWW O V O O A O 1. Can I just bull rush the victim into the wall and proc dungeon crasher's ability for 8d6 dmg + 3X STR? 2. After the manuver, will I be squeezing together with the victim? 3. Can I move 5ft after the manuver and crash the victim into the wall again? 1: Yes, any bull rush attempt that would cause your opponent to move farther than he can due to a wall, he takes the damage. 2. No, you always end in separate squares, so in the example, neither of you would actually move on the map. 3. No, because a bull rush requires either a standard action or a charge, both of which can only be done once per turn.
jstorrie 08-20-07, 02:12 PM	The only way I can think of to get multiple bull rush attempts in one turn (and thus multiple dungeon crashes) is with Driving Attack, the level 14 feat in the Weapon Mastery tree for piercing weapons.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-20-07, 06:22 PM	The only way I can think of to get multiple bull rush attempts in one turn (and thus multiple dungeon crashes) is with Driving Attack, the level 14 feat in the Weapon Mastery tree for piercing weapons. Driving attack requires a full-round action, so not even that works...and given that you need to be at least 14th level to use it...no dungeon crasher is ever gonna get teh chance before LG bites it...
Evanta 08-20-07, 08:37 PM	oh question 3 meant whether I can do that next turn.
jstorrie 08-20-07, 09:18 PM	Driving Attack would work if you had Knockback or some other ability to trigger a bull rush by landing a melee attack (Clouting weapon, maybe?)
JJeff 08-20-07, 09:32 PM	2. No, you always end in separate squares, so in the example, neither of you would actually move on the map. Jay, since the target cannot move and you need to end on different squares, is it even a legal bull rush? I would think that DC only activates when the bull rush is legal in the first place. Maybe I'm over nit-picking, but if you can, You can almost ALWAYS slam a guy into a wall regardless and that would be rather powerful and damaging for this ability.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-21-07, 07:00 AM	Jay, since the target cannot move and you need to end on different squares, is it even a legal bull rush? I would think that DC only activates when the bull rush is legal in the first place. Maybe I'm over nit-picking, but if you can, You can almost ALWAYS slam a guy into a wall regardless and that would be rather powerful and damaging for this ability. It's perfectly legal. You initiate the bull rush, move into his square, slam him into the wall, then because he is still occupying that square, you are by default moved back to your original square, similar to if the bull rush had failed.
JJeff 08-21-07, 09:29 PM	The PHB states that you cannot use a bull rush to end up in an occupied square. Since there is no way to move the victim of the rush anywhere else, there is no way to escape the "end in an occupied square" limitation and the bull rush cannot be executed. The rules state that, when moving, you only move back into your own square if you inadvertantly land in a square that is un-friendly and occupied, not due to your own actions, unless you have a feat that allows it (like underfootfighting and such), which Bull Rush (though not a feat) doesn't.
pl52283 09-17-07, 12:30 PM	Sometimes, rules can't be all inclusive. That is why you are here. The intent of the rule would allow a bull rush into the wall in this case. Even though the wording would seem to indicate otherwise, sometimes you have to interpret the spirit of the wording. Think to yourself, does it seem plausible to do that. If so, let it go, and move on. Also, take a class in physics or try it yourself in a mosh pit. It works great, trust me.
bitznarf 09-17-07, 01:30 PM	Also, take a class in physics or try it yourself in a mosh pit. It works great, trust me. Taking real life physics and trying to apply it to D&D generally doesn't work very well.
Mithreinmaethor 09-17-07, 03:15 PM	Someone might look into whether or not it would work with the shock trooper & combat brute combo.
magebeast 09-17-07, 03:40 PM	If you had shock trooper you could probably slam them into the wall on either side. I have a related question. If you begin a bull rush as a standard action rather than as part of a charge, do you only have the movement of your remaining move action to let them hit a wall? In other words,does it always takes a full round's worth of actions to bull rush someone regardless of which method you use to start it?
Timlagor 09-18-07, 02:12 AM	My opinion is that the standard action to Bull Rush has a full move-action's worth of moevement included but I don't think the RAW are clear.
JJeff 09-18-07, 03:36 AM	I just think that Dungeon Crasher is a bit too much damage (yes, I know the charging builds do the same amount, but then, doesn't mean everything has to reach that level..) Just thought it should be harder to execute. Heck, all this is not going to be legal next year anyway. hope bull rushes are easier to use in 4th ed
Timlagor 09-18-07, 07:15 PM	They don't kick in until Sorcerors are casting Haste meaning that your potentially giving up two extra attacks for it ..and the option of power attacking.