Elf Sub levels and half elves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elf Sub levels and half elves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wraith235
09-01-07, 07:26 AM can Half Elves pick up Elven Racial Sub levels ...

Looking for an answer with some text behind it not just opinions

there was something in the PHB about half elves and elven blood and being considered an Elf over a human
Sieylianna
09-01-07, 09:30 AM No. I asked my triad and this was the answer I received.

Ed
Mommy was an Orc
09-01-07, 11:17 AM I'd say yes by RAW, Spirit of the Rules is shakier.

From Races of the Wild:
"To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a racial substitution level of elf wizard, you must be an elf."

"Wildrunner:
Entry Requirements
Race: Elf or half-elf"

From PHB:
"Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf."

There are really two questions:
Does a Racial Substitution level count as being an Effect? If it does, it is clearly allowed by RAW.

Do the writers not see it as being an Effect and therefore didn't mention anything about it?(why they felt it necessary to point out that Wildrunner allows Half-Elves to join)

------------

It seems like a DM call at the table. I'd allow it(based on the RAW argument), but I suspect the writers would disagree with me on doing that. In most cases, though, it seems that the Elven Sub levels are relatively easy to compensate for at the table. i.e. if a DM rules no, it isn't the end of the world to revise it.
jstorrie
09-03-07, 08:42 PM Class levels aren't effects by my reading of the rules. Effects are things that happen in play.
Mommy was an Orc
09-03-07, 11:06 PM Class levels aren't effects by my reading of the rules. Effects are things that happen in play.

That's one way of looking at it, but as an example, a half-elf can use a magic item that requires elven blood.

That's not an effect that happens in play, it is a prerequisite to use the item. If they have the ability to qualify for prereqs of an item, they should have the ability to qualify for any prereq.

Effect is a poorly defined area of the rules for that and other reasons.
jstorrie
09-04-07, 02:28 AM I disagree; I think that using a magic item is definitely something that happens in play. Prestige class or feat choices, on the other hand, are mechanical issues that happen 'on the character sheet.'
RanielK
09-04-07, 08:21 AM I disagree; I think that using a magic item is definitely something that happens in play. Prestige class or feat choices, on the other hand, are mechanical issues that happen 'on the character sheet.'

To an extent, yes. At the same time, that "on the character sheet" bit is simulating the fact you have to be part of a certain community to get the training. You have to be an elf and able to get to elven teachers to learn bladesinger or wild runner or what have you. A half-elf raised by elves should qualify.

IIRC, Unearthed Arcana had racial paragon classes for all of the PHB races. The half-elf and half-orc races could choose between (or take both, not sure) the human pclass and the other half's pclass. Of course, this isn't an LG source, so take it for what it's worth.
Timlagor
09-04-07, 01:00 PM I would certainly allow a half-elf to take the Racial levels. Teh Spirit seems totally clear to me and the RAW only marginally shaky.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith235 09-01-07, 07:26 AM	can Half Elves pick up Elven Racial Sub levels ... Looking for an answer with some text behind it not just opinions there was something in the PHB about half elves and elven blood and being considered an Elf over a human
Sieylianna 09-01-07, 09:30 AM	No. I asked my triad and this was the answer I received. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 09-01-07, 11:17 AM	I'd say yes by RAW, Spirit of the Rules is shakier. From Races of the Wild: "To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a racial substitution level of elf wizard, you must be an elf." "Wildrunner: Entry Requirements Race: Elf or half-elf" From PHB: "Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf." There are really two questions: Does a Racial Substitution level count as being an Effect? If it does, it is clearly allowed by RAW. Do the writers not see it as being an Effect and therefore didn't mention anything about it?(why they felt it necessary to point out that Wildrunner allows Half-Elves to join) ------------ It seems like a DM call at the table. I'd allow it(based on the RAW argument), but I suspect the writers would disagree with me on doing that. In most cases, though, it seems that the Elven Sub levels are relatively easy to compensate for at the table. i.e. if a DM rules no, it isn't the end of the world to revise it.
jstorrie 09-03-07, 08:42 PM	Class levels aren't effects by my reading of the rules. Effects are things that happen in play.
Mommy was an Orc 09-03-07, 11:06 PM	Class levels aren't effects by my reading of the rules. Effects are things that happen in play. That's one way of looking at it, but as an example, a half-elf can use a magic item that requires elven blood. That's not an effect that happens in play, it is a prerequisite to use the item. If they have the ability to qualify for prereqs of an item, they should have the ability to qualify for any prereq. Effect is a poorly defined area of the rules for that and other reasons.
jstorrie 09-04-07, 02:28 AM	I disagree; I think that using a magic item is definitely something that happens in play. Prestige class or feat choices, on the other hand, are mechanical issues that happen 'on the character sheet.'
RanielK 09-04-07, 08:21 AM	I disagree; I think that using a magic item is definitely something that happens in play. Prestige class or feat choices, on the other hand, are mechanical issues that happen 'on the character sheet.' To an extent, yes. At the same time, that "on the character sheet" bit is simulating the fact you have to be part of a certain community to get the training. You have to be an elf and able to get to elven teachers to learn bladesinger or wild runner or what have you. A half-elf raised by elves should qualify. IIRC, Unearthed Arcana had racial paragon classes for all of the PHB races. The half-elf and half-orc races could choose between (or take both, not sure) the human pclass and the other half's pclass. Of course, this isn't an LG source, so take it for what it's worth.
Timlagor 09-04-07, 01:00 PM	I would certainly allow a half-elf to take the Racial levels. Teh Spirit seems totally clear to me and the RAW only marginally shaky.