Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 02-01-07, 01:24 AM	OK .. build details are irrelelevant but have been playing with the following concept ... medium PC or cohort with enlarge person mounted on large animal companian with animal growth to huge practicality aside .. the following questions arise 1. a large humanoid with a lance will have 20' reach, does he threaten just the furthermost 20' (with the inner 15' unthreatened) or both squares 15' and 20' out from him (only the inner 10' unthreatened). 2. if a large animal with 5' reach becomes huge does its reach become 10' ? what if it has 10' reach and becomes huge ? 3. if the character passes a ride check to fight at the same time as the animal and elects to charge. is it possible to position himself in such a way on the huge creature that both the creature and his lance get to attack on the charge. (note he is NOT ride by attacking here)
JamesMaissen 02-01-07, 03:02 AM	OK .. build details are irrelelevant but have been playing with the following concept ... medium PC or cohort with enlarge person mounted on large animal companian with animal growth to huge practicality aside .. the following questions arise 1. a large humanoid with a lance will have 20' reach, does he threaten just the furthermost 20' (with the inner 15' unthreatened) or both squares 15' and 20' out from him (only the inner 10' unthreatened). 2. if a large animal with 5' reach becomes huge does its reach become 10' ? what if it has 10' reach and becomes huge ? 3. if the character passes a ride check to fight at the same time as the animal and elects to charge. is it possible to position himself in such a way on the huge creature that both the creature and his lance get to attack on the charge. (note he is NOT ride by attacking here) 1. He is large tall so he would normally have 10' reach. With an appropriately sized reach weapon (which enlarge person would grant) he would threaten squares at a distance of 15' and 20' just like an ogre with a longspear does. 2. A large animal with 5' reach is large long, when grown it becomes huge long and has 10' reach. A large animal with 10' reach (eg dire ape) is large tall. Huge tall creatures have 15' reach (eg cloud giants). 3. Only if your reach is the same as you need to stop after the charge attack. -James
Gwumph 02-01-07, 03:41 AM	For your last question When mounted you are considered to be in every square that the creature you are riding takes. i.e. a huge sized creature is a 15 x 15 ft square, even though you are only a large sized creature (10 x 10 ft square) the number of squares you inhibit when mounted is 15 x 15ft Which comes to point 2. When charging you must attack from the nearest point possible. So when judging distance for your lance you take it from the closest square possible... 20 feet away so no you are never going to be able to attack with your lance and your mount at the same time
kjenks 02-01-07, 02:41 PM	so no you are never going to be able to attack with your lance and your mount at the same time That's correct, while charging. The FAQ has some clarification on this topic. When not charging, if you want to get a full attack, you and your mount can dance the 5 ft. shuffle or the mount/dismount shuffle. Let's say you're large/tall on a huge/long mount. You have an appropriately-sized reach weapon, so (as James says) you threaten all squares 15 ft. and 20 ft. away from your squares, but you don't threaten squares 5 ft. and 10 ft. away. Your mount has 10 ft. reach, so it only threatens squares 5 ft. and 10 ft. away. If your opponent is large and he's adjacent to you (inside your "reach donut"), your mount can make its full attack then take a 5 ft. step away from you opponent. This brings you into a position where you can make your full attack with your lance. If your opponent is medium and he's adjacent to you, your mount can make its full attack, then you dismount into a square 10 ft. away from your opponent, then you make your full attack. You can dismount as a free action if you make a special Ride check, DC 20 (it's a little bit special because your armor check penalty does apply to this Ride check). But you can only do that fast dismount or fast mount as a free action if you have a move action available to you, so after you do a free dismount and a full attack, you're stuck unmounted until your next turn, where you can mount up again and repeat the dance steps. (BTW, here's a cheesy way to get a large/tall rider and a huge/long mount: A druid/wizard has a heavy horse as an animal companion/mount, and he casts Enlarge Person, sharing the spell with his mount. This is even easier if your DM recognizes that drinking a potion makes you the spellcaster and lets you share an Enlarge Person potion with your animal companion or paladin mount. And yes, you can share an Enlarge Person spell with an animal companion or paladin mount, despite the animal not usually being affected by the spell.)
Howie23 02-01-07, 05:32 PM	(BTW, here's a cheesy way to get a large/tall rider and a huge/long mount: A druid/wizard has a heavy horse as an animal companion/mount, and he casts Enlarge Person, sharing the spell with his mount. Or, Cleric w/Strength domain. Clr1/Ftr?/PalX makes for an simple build for this, to share with bonded mount, requiring only that you have a Strength domain deity that is NG, LG, or LN. David
clannagh 02-01-07, 05:52 PM	For your last question When mounted you are considered to be in every square that the creature you are riding takes. i.e. a huge sized creature is a 15 x 15 ft square, even though you are only a large sized creature (10 x 10 ft square) the number of squares you inhibit when mounted is 15 x 15ft Which comes to point 2. When charging you must attack from the nearest point possible. So when judging distance for your lance you take it from the closest square possible... 20 feet away so no you are never going to be able to attack with your lance and your mount at the same time interesting .. never really looked at mounted creatures before so mounting a small creature on a huge mount would effectively make it huge and give it substantially more reach
Howie23 02-01-07, 06:04 PM	interesting .. never really looked at mounted creatures before so mounting a small creature on a huge mount would effectively make it huge and give it substantially more reach the little guy takes up a bigger footprint, but he still has his his native reach, not the reach of the mount's size. You get higher ground if mount larger than your opponent, though. If bigger than one size, you lose rapid mount/dismount ability also. David
clannagh 02-01-07, 06:07 PM	the little guy takes up a bigger footprint, but he still has his his native reach, not the reach of the mount's size. You get higher ground if mount larger than your opponent, though. If bigger than one size, you lose rapid mount/dismount ability also. David still a gnome cavalier with a lance mounted on an enlarged rhino would be a very amusing sight and they actually would do a fair chunk of damage when they charged i really like character concepts that appear ludicrous or ineffectual until the going gets tough when they pull out all stops and smack things down
Howie23 02-01-07, 07:28 PM	On the amusing side of enlarge..... Ran for a mounted PC who got enlarged while mounted on three separate occasions, each time forgetting about the little "large rider on large mount" problem. It did identify the amusing, if questionable, tactic of enlarging the mounted bad guy as a way of dismounting him. David
copper_wyrmling 02-01-07, 08:47 PM	On the amusing side of enlarge..... Ran for a mounted PC who got enlarged while mounted on three separate occasions, each time forgetting about the little "large rider on large mount" problem. It did identify the amusing, if questionable, tactic of enlarging the mounted bad guy as a way of dismounting him. David Yeah. I watched a party that went to great effort to make sure that everybody could be mounted on (airwalking, waterwalking) phantom steeds for the final fight (against a flying swimming monster in its native habitat), and then as soon as they got into combat, the wizard enlarged the BDF :rolleyes: In their defence, it was late, but it almost got the BDF killed as the monster stalked him underwater while everybody else sat around on their phantom steeds above... Hmmm, maybe I should start a thread for "actions which sounded like a good idea but turned out to be an immensely bad idea", or something like that but more succint ;) (Like the very helpful wizard in a recent game who decided to D-Door the fighter into a flank for a full attack... forgetting that the flank-buddy was running Greater Anticipate Teleport ;) )
Gwumph 02-01-07, 10:48 PM	Sorry Clannagh A gnome mounted on a huge size creature would to no more damage then if he was mounted on a riding dog. The size of your mount in no-way effects your damage. If you can ride it! You can charge with it! But it don't help your damage potential.
clannagh 02-01-07, 10:55 PM	Sorry Clannagh A gnome mounted on a huge size creature would to no more damage then if he was mounted on a riding dog. The size of your mount in no-way effects your damage. If you can ride it! You can charge with it! But it don't help your damage potential. indeed but the rhino does double damage on the charge without criticaling so the enlarged rhino equals something like 4d8+32 on a hit (a reasonable paladin cavallier at level 10-12 will do up around 3d6 +70 or so without smite or deadly charge activated) and rhino and gnome both have 10' reach so gnome and rhino can both attack on a successful ride check :)
DuctShuiTengu 02-02-07, 01:51 AM	If your opponent is large and he's adjacent to you (inside your "reach donut"), your mount can make its full attack then take a 5 ft. step away from you opponent. This brings you into a position where you can make your full attack with your lance. Okay, slightly tangental question here with regards to reach and mounts. Assuming, for the moment a medium rider with a lance on a large mount, what squares do they threaten (for the sake of making this a little easier, I'm leaving out the areas above and to the left of the mount and rider): MMXX MMXX XXXX XXXX After all, if we assume that the Rider is in the lower right of the 4 squares occupied by the mount, it threatens the red x's. If, however, we assume it to be in the upper left one, it threatens the blue Xs. Per the rules on Mounted characters, I believe the rule is that they count as being in all squares occupied by the mount, so would that mean they threaten both?
JamesMaissen 02-02-07, 02:06 AM	After all, if we assume that the Rider is in the lower right of the 4 squares occupied by the mount, it threatens the red x's. If, however, we assume it to be in the upper left one, it threatens the blue Xs. Per the rules on Mounted characters, I believe the rule is that they count as being in all squares occupied by the mount, so would that mean they threaten both? No, consider them to be large sized for reach purposes. They don't pick which of the four squares they are in, but rather count as being in all of them like a large sized creature. -James
Gwumph 02-02-07, 02:38 AM	DuctShuiTengu the easiest way to understand is that when you mount a creature, your base area is the same as your mount. But your size remains unchanged. i.e. MMMXX MMMXX MMMXX XXXX XXXXX your mount is a huge creature. Your PC is a gnome with a lance. Red X you do not threaten. Blue X you threaten. Your gnome now has base space of 15 X 15 and there for is considered to fill each of the "M" squares.
Gwumph 02-02-07, 02:43 AM	I see i need to work on my X ability. Oh well
DuctShuiTengu 02-02-07, 10:20 AM	Alright, thanks. I kind-of guessed that was the case (or at least that that was supposed to be the case) but the rules I could find on the subject didn't seem as clear as I would have liked.
bitznarf 02-02-07, 11:24 AM	No, consider them to be large sized for reach purposes. They don't pick which of the four squares they are in, but rather count as being in all of them like a large sized creature. -James The problem with this theory is that it makes a mounted lance charge *way* to easy to defeat. For example we have the Mounted Guy ('M', 'X') and a guy on foot ('F', 'X') with a longsword (or some other non-reach weapon). F readies against a charge. M charges at F and we get to this point: Charging that way ---> MMXXXF MMXXXX XXXX XXX M moves 2 more squares as part of his charge, triggering the ready of F MMXF MMXX XXXX XXX F 5' steps towards M as part of his ready, leaving him inside the reach of the lance. MMFX MMXX XXXX XXX At this point, sure the mount would get an attack, but unless the rider has quickdraw (drop the lance - free action, draw a secondary weapon - free action) his own actions for the round have been wasted. In my opinion, this does not honor the spirit of the rules. -Dale
kjenks 02-02-07, 02:37 PM	My mounted lancer characters keep an eye out for any opponent who hasn't obviously taken a standard action. It's almost never a good idea to make a lance charge against any opponent who has a readied action. I keep track of who does what during a combat, and if I see someone who hasn't done anything obvious with his standard action, I'll avoid that dude and attack someone else. This policy avoids such annoying readied actions as stepping under the lance's reach, sidestepping out of the charge path, tossing caltrops or a Grease spell in our path, going invisible, lighting up a smokestick or otherwise causing concealment to prevent a charge (since you have to see your opponent to charge), etc. There are many, many ways to foil a mounted lance charge with a standard action. The NPCs who ready actions like this usually have the trigger of "If that big guy on the horse charges me, I'll... (whatever)." If I attack someone else, that NPC's action is completely wasted. I figure if my character has scared an NPC into readying an action, I've already greatly reduce the threat level of that NPC for that round and I should work on the other combatants or spend the round buffing up. I find that after a round or two of mounted lance charges, most intelligent NPCs concentrate all of their attention and firepower on me. (Those double and triple damage attacks really sting.) So this situation comes up pretty often.
Rerednaw 02-02-07, 03:55 PM	Yeah. I watched a party that went to great effort to make sure that everybody could be mounted on (airwalking, waterwalking) phantom steeds for the final fight (against a flying swimming monster in its native habitat), and then as soon as they got into combat, the wizard enlarged the BDF :rolleyes: In their defence, it was late, but it almost got the BDF killed as the monster stalked him underwater while everybody else sat around on their phantom steeds above... I'm sorry BDF? Binomial Distribution Formula? Breathe Dragon Fire? Beer-Drinking Fighter?
bitznarf 02-02-07, 04:14 PM	I'm sorry BDF? Binomial Distribution Formula? Breathe Dragon Fire? Beer-Drinking Fighter? AFAIK it stands for Big-Dumb-Fighter, or Beer Drinking Fighter if you prefer. The tank type in the party.
Gwumph 02-02-07, 04:27 PM	Bitznarf it could be argued that since you don't have control of when your ready action goes off, if the charger was 40 ft away you would take your 5 ft step right after he started his charge, which would still leave the charging person plenty space to attack you.
bitznarf 02-02-07, 05:08 PM	Bitznarf it could be argued that since you don't have control of when your ready action goes off, if the charger was 40 ft away you would take your 5 ft step right after he started his charge, which would still leave the charging person plenty space to attack you. It's quite easy to word such a ready. Essentially it would be "I ready to 5' step and attack (the charger, any bad guy, insert other descriptor here) when they come in range" rather then "I ready to 5' and hit when he charges" The problem I have with the original post about the topic is that it doesn't make any sense *at all* that a defender could 5' step inside the attackers lance reach during a charge without the charging character getting an attack in. Admitidly, this is a corner case but if the rules cannot cover the corner cases, the rules need to be looked at again. Either that or the judge would need to make a case by case ruling. Perhaps a solution would be to allow the charging character to get that attack in anyway, with some sort of circumstance penalty to the attack roll. Don't take this as me saying 'this is the way it should be'; simply me saying 'something is wrong here, lets look at it'. As a final note, as mentioned by Ken it is prudent to avoid those who appear to be doing nothing, yet still looking at you funny. Doubly so if they have things like spears, pikes and so on in hand... -Dale
JamesMaissen 02-02-07, 05:18 PM	It's quite easy to word such a ready. Essentially it would be "I ready to 5' step and attack (the charger, any bad guy, insert other descriptor here) when they come in range" rather then "I ready to 5' and hit when he charges" -Dale This has nothing to do with charging however as the same tactic can be used to defeat a purely reach weapon when the wielder needs to move up to you. It's a cheap tactic that most people shun/avoid as it seems problematic as you describe. -James
DuctShuiTengu 02-03-07, 10:42 AM	It's quite easy to word such a ready. Essentially it would be "I ready to 5' step and attack (the charger, any bad guy, insert other descriptor here) when they come in range" rather then "I ready to 5' and hit when he charges" Of course, this runs into the classic problem with readied actions. Make the condition too specific ("when he charges me") and you risk wasting your action as they do something else (the guy with the lance charges the cleric instead). Make it too general("when any bad guy comes within range"), and you risk it being triggered by something else (the bad guy fighter with a greatsword charges. You 5-foot in and attack, they hit you back) so that you're no-longer readied when what you wanted to use it for comes up.