Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drezden 04-28-06, 01:44 PM	I think it is time the Circle expanded the list of generally available items - items any character can purchase any adventure - to include Wands of Cure Light Wounds. Wands of CLW are every bit as essential and vital as Stat Items +2, Ring of Prot. +1 or a Cloak of Resist. +1. They are the universal out of combat healing method for most parties. Most regions have given liberal access to them, but LG being what it is, many characters do not get access. It is time to end this disparity and let all characters buy Wands of CLW. This will encourage all PCs to own them and to share the healing burden. Currently, it is much too easy for someone to say, "I would have bought a CLW wand, but never had access." I don't really see a downside to adding a Wand of CLW to the small list of generally available items. The Circle hasn't expanded the list in a while - making room for this essential item seems like it is well overdue. Daren
Mommy was an Orc 04-28-06, 03:26 PM	I think it is time the Circle expanded the list of generally available items - items any character can purchase any adventure - to include Wands of Cure Light Wounds. Wands of CLW are every bit as essential and vital as Stat Items +2, Ring of Prot. +1 or a Cloak of Resist. +1. They are the universal out of combat healing method for most parties. A Divine Scroll of CLW is only 25 gold. Just hand it to the Divine Caster of the party. Sure, it is nice to have the discount of the wand, but any player arguing that they're not providing cash towards healing because they don't have access... Pearls of Power 1st level are also a lot more efficient over time if you have access to them - you hand them to the divine caster of the party and ask them to memorize lesser vigor from Spell Compendium. Then you're providing roughly 50 gold's worth of healing per mod per day of mod. After 60 mods, that ends up being pretty cheap...
Drezden 04-28-06, 03:35 PM	So, Andy, are you against my proposal to make a Wand of CLW universally available? Daren
solbergb 04-28-06, 05:07 PM	I'm with Andy. Scrolls are available, they're nearly as cheap individually and easier for a L1-2 character to afford. Wand of CLW access is fairly common, and if you don't get it, someone else at the table will. It's not like the other items (such as amulet of health+2) which a character needs for himself, and for which there is no other cheap alternative.
Mommy was an Orc 04-28-06, 05:09 PM	So, Andy, are you against my proposal to make a Wand of CLW universally available? Daren Yes. First off, I like the flavor of the current setup. I don't think your proposal particularly does what you want it to do - namely have everyone contribute to the healing pool. The people who try to weasel out of their fair share of consumable costs(without a viable alternative) aren't going to change their behavior because of it. If anything, I think it makes it more difficult. I prefer they try a flat out lie first. Ends up being much less confrontational. You're not accusing them of lying, you're being helpful in pointing out something that they may not have realized. They have a way of saving face, but at the same time they'll look really bad if they try some other excuse. Also, I really doubt that people aren't seeing access. They're simply choosing not to buy when they have access. Andy
Sieylianna 04-28-06, 05:30 PM	I finally saw a wand of lesser vigor. I bought one and may buy more before I lose access. The same PC finally saw a pearl of power (1st) at 11th level. I bought three of those. (I have some money to spare because I was trying to pick up a ring of evasion, but ended up about 2K GP short. People have brought up CLW wand access at every LGCS review and it's never changed. I don't expect the Circle to change its mind. Ed
Drezden 04-28-06, 05:45 PM	Well as we all know from the various LGCS updates, the Circle can and does change its mind. Witness the new rules on Repairing magic items, the wood elf Charisma penalty, expanded access for Warmages at 1st level - and the list goes on. Remember when the +2 stat items weren't core acces? It is just a real no brainer for me. A Wand of CLW is an essential item; a basic advenuring staple - like a Cloak of Resistance +1 or a Ring of Protection +1 - they should recieve the same treatment - i.e. universal access. That is my central argument - yeah, I would like to see players all share the healing burden, but that is really secondary to just recongnizing the Wand of CLW for the necessary item it is. Daren
opa 04-28-06, 07:52 PM	I don't believe it is a necessary item to everyone, and I have seen more than enough access, and more in cores than regionals.. Potions and Scrolls are available, and the difference is not game breaking.. as a player my ability to use a wand of CLW with my ranger levels has been a lifesaver but feels cheesy.. it almost lessens the role of the Cleric class, that isn't an argument thats just a feeling.., every character at the table breaking out a wand of CLW when the combats over just doesn't seem right.. again just a feeling my argument for not having them is from the point of view of the people making them.. it just kills the temples markets for scrolls.. tons of acolytes pumping out CLW scrolls for the people who don't want to spend the money on potions, will be out of work. .. Opa
paigeoliver 04-28-06, 10:11 PM	Also, even if they were core access they still wouldn't be purchased by everyone. I have passed up countless wands of CLW and even wands of lesser vigor. I personally feel that fighting characters should never spend much any money on consumables at all. They need every GP they earn to do what they do best, which is choppination, arrow shooting and spirited charging. Those 3 wands of cure light wounds the fighter has doesn't do him any good if the whole party dies because he bought wands instead of a +1 weapon. I believe consumables are best used by SUPPORT characters/spellcasters, as the consumables help them better fulfill their SUPPORT roles. Basically, the less equipment the character actually NEEDS the more money they have to spend on consumables. A sorceror (for example) needs pretty much nothing. Sure there are all sorts of permanent things they COULD buy, but at the end of the day they aren't making all that much difference to his effectiveness. Perfect character to purchase consumables. A fighter however to stay effective is going to need to go through +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, secondary +1 weapon, 2 stat boost items, another weapon upgrade, etc, etc to stay effective at his APL. If you take a 10th level fighter and take away all his posessions then he will be neutered and will soon die. Take a 10th level sorceror and take away all HIS posessions and the only person who would probably even notice would be the person playing him.
Drezden 04-29-06, 12:07 AM	So magic items don't make much of a difference to an arcane caster's effectiveness eh? That's just laughable. As is the notion that arcane casters should buy consumables to prop up frontliners who won't spend any GP of thier own on them. If anything it is the opposite - frontliners are the ones who absolutely need a way to heal themselves, since they will face most of the attacks. This is especially true in LG, where parties are not together continuously. You need to help pay for your own healing, before asking an arcane caster to help pay for it. In LG - where miss-matched parties happen all the time - you need to be prepared to play without a Cleric or without an arcane caster and a way to help in that direction is consumables. Get to the last encounter in a party with no arcane and no archers and you are fighting flying opponents - good thing the tank had that potion of Fly. Daren
Iswald 04-29-06, 01:15 AM	Wands of CLW are not an necessity. However, they are extremely handy and a good way to share the cost of healing. I have two clerics, one has four wands of CLW and uses them now and again. The other cleric had access once, around second level, but didn't have gold for it (forget the details). Since then, he's had no access. In a few more mods, he'll be level 10. The lack of a wand of CLW hasn't caused the death of any PC at his tables (just the monks running ahead too far). Frontline characters should spend some money on healing items, but then all characters should.
JamesMaissen 04-29-06, 10:21 AM	I think it is time the Circle expanded the list of generally available items - items any character can purchase any adventure - to include Wands of Cure Light Wounds. Wands of CLW are every bit as essential and vital as Stat Items +2, Ring of Prot. +1 or a Cloak of Resist. +1. They are the universal out of combat healing method for most parties. Daren My personal thoughts are twofold. First that many items should *Eventually* become open access regardless of random whim of ARs encountered by the character. A 15th level character should NOT have to beg and scrounge for a wand of cure light wounds! Certain items should become core access by level. For example there is absolutely no need for the stat items to be available at 1st level.. however I do agree that they should become universally available by some point in the character's career. Second, get us off the incomplete inaccurate DMG tables!!! Restrict and limit items on merit not some percieved short cut. End those innane debates on the level of 250gp potions, etc. Allow wizards to purchase scrolls of core spells for thier spellbooks. And finally allow people to buy such reasonable things as a 3rd level scroll of magic missle or a 5th level scroll of jump. These certainly do not merit restriction over the scrolls on the DMG list. -James
zigspatty 04-29-06, 08:44 PM	I personally feel that fighting characters should never spend much any money on consumables at all. They need every GP they earn to do what they do best, which is choppination, arrow shooting and spirited charging...... I believe consumables are best used by SUPPORT characters/spellcasters, as the consumables help them better fulfill their SUPPORT roles. It varies a lot as to who the "Support characters" are in any given encounter. When the front-line tank is protecting the spellcaster who is blowing away the baddies with his spells, which is the "main character"? The front line tank tends to get the accolades for dealing out the big damage that takes out the baddies, but without the "support character" to heal him, bolster his strength and AC, and magic up his weapons, he might not survive to see success. D&D is a team game where groups that do not work together tend to fail. In LG, the team members may change with every table so its a pretty good idea for every character to have a few healing items - it's pretty easy to land at a table that has no "support healer" at all, and those consumables could be all you have. If you've a full cleric at the table, he'll *probably* take care of you, but if he goes down or the damage piles up, you'll be grateful that you were prepared. (And with your attitude towards the group, the cleric player might feel justified in being a bit stingy in supporting you.) A fighter however to stay effective is going to need to go through +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, secondary +1 weapon, 2 stat boost items, another weapon upgrade, etc, etc to stay effective at his APL. And the sorcerer is going to need a small library of scrolls to make up for his "ultra specialization" in a few spells, AC & stat boosting items that contribute just as much to his effectiveness as the fighter's weaponry and armor. The fighter needs a wide variety of magical weaponry to be effective - so does the sorcerer, his weapons just happen to include equally pricey wands, staves and scrolls.... and wondrous items that make his spellcasting even more effective. It's a little easier to see the contributions of some characters than others, but don't discount them. The boosted charisma that means the baddie fails the save can be far more important than the +1 to hit and damage that a sword deals out. Patty
JohnduBois 04-29-06, 08:55 PM	D&D is a team game where groups that do not work together tend to fail. Too true. I know of a player who felt that his bard was underappreciated, so he started doing some math. Every time a PC dealt damage to a baddie while he was singing, he added the amount of damage dealt by bardsong. Every time a PC hit a baddie due to bardsong, he added that attack's damage. Every time a PC hit with an attack from his casting of haste, he added that attack's damage. And every time a player questioned his bard's contribution to the table, he told that player the amount of damage in the last adventure and so far in the current adventure that would not have been dealt had his bard not been at the table. Apparently, it was a pretty significant number. I've been told that the people with whom he regularly plays no longer doubt that bards are effective contributers to parties. I'd do similar math with my bard, but he fills different roles every combat and his songs are much harder to quantify.
solbergb 05-01-06, 03:17 PM	Yeah. My bard cohort was the primary reason why it was ok that only two characters were doing damage to the enemy in both dangerous encounters in a recent mod. (the fighters were getting creamed, and my arcane+bard were tied up just keeping them from getting killed) A bard tends to add 50% to the effectiveness of a physical damage dealer like fighter or archer, if all he does is cast haste+bardsong as his first two actions. Back on topic...everyone needs some consumables....the fighter who forgets to buy oil of magic weapon and oil of bless weapon is fooling himself....he's ensuring that he'll be useless against some encounters until about 4 levels pass (magic weapon) and about 8-12 levels (bless weapon). And he should keep the potions around anyway, in case his weapon gets sundered or he needs special material+magic or good. All chars need potion of clw, so somebody else, even an NPC commoner, can stabilize them. Aside from that, consumable needs vary a lot. My sorc didn't buy wands of clw for a long, long time, because she burned a lot of arcane consumables and rarely got hurt. But she traveled to a new region and bought one up, not knowing how good the locals would be about keeping up with out of combat healing. Generally, spellcasters need a lot of scrolls in the early levels just to do their job, until they get enough spell slots (or spells known) to cover most situations. Higher level spellcasters tend to have fewer consumables but more expensive ones. Fighter types will have consumables that they hope others will cast on them, plus a few potions of whatever they think might be worth a std action and won't cripple them financially to use. (potion of fly *is* a good idea for a melee fighter, eventually. But not at level 6, where drinking it may cost more than the entire cash earned for the module. At lower levels they might go with scrolls, or just get out their bow, because the diff between a fighter and a specialized archer is less in those levels)
trollbill 06-05-06, 01:46 PM	I personally feel that fighting characters should never spend much any money on consumables at all. They need every GP they earn to do what they do best, which is choppination, arrow shooting and spirited charging. Those 3 wands of cure light wounds the fighter has doesn't do him any good if the whole party dies because he bought wands instead of a +1 weapon. I believe consumables are best used by SUPPORT characters/spellcasters, as the consumables help them better fulfill their SUPPORT roles. Basically, the less equipment the character actually NEEDS the more money they have to spend on consumables. A sorceror (for example) needs pretty much nothing. Sure there are all sorts of permanent things they COULD buy, but at the end of the day they aren't making all that much difference to his effectiveness. Perfect character to purchase consumables. A fighter however to stay effective is going to need to go through +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, secondary +1 weapon, 2 stat boost items, another weapon upgrade, etc, etc to stay effective at his APL. If you take a 10th level fighter and take away all his posessions then he will be neutered and will soon die. Take a 10th level sorceror and take away all HIS posessions and the only person who would probably even notice would be the person playing him. While I could pick each one of these rather bogus arguments apart in detail, the real problem lies with the base-assumption. Suffice to say that the entire base assumption that fighter-types can more effectively spend money on personally buffing themselves than spellcasters can is a complete and utter FALSEHOOD. Sorry if this sounds rather rude, but in all honesty, I find the entire quoted post to be rather rude.