Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 11:53 AM	OK, so my trip monkey is leveling to second and I was going to take Expert Tactician which states "If you hit a creature with an attack of opportunity, you and all your allies gain a +2 circumstance bonus on melee attack rolls and damage rolls for one round." If I use my attack of opportunity to try and trip, I'm confident that a successful touch attack would count as a hit, but would the followup attack granted by improved trip receive the bonus? I'm inclined to say yes, but I'm not sure everyone would agree. If I sat down at your table, how would you rule it?
jstorrie 06-21-07, 12:07 PM	I'd rule that you had to hit with a damaging attack, but I can definitely see that your argument might fly, too. ETV.
Timlagor 06-21-07, 12:56 PM	I'd have to read the whole of the Feat.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 12:59 PM	That is the whole feat, word for word, beyond the generic intro and prereqs.
lseelba 06-21-07, 01:33 PM	OK, so my trip monkey is leveling to second and I was going to take Expert Tactician which states "If you hit a creature with an attack of opportunity, you and all your allies gain a +2 circumstance bonus on melee attack rolls and damage rolls for one round." If I use my attack of opportunity to try and trip, I'm confident that a successful touch attack would count as a hit, but would the followup attack granted by improved trip receive the bonus? I'm inclined to say yes, but I'm not sure everyone would agree. If I sat down at your table, how would you rule it? If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. -SRD Personally I'd rule that it is fine and you get your circumstance bonus, but expect some table variation. Some might rule that the above language from the Improved Trip feat would prohibit you from getting the +2 attack and damage. Also, just succeeding on the touch attack part isn't enough in my opinion to count as a hit. I'd rule that you'd have to actually trip the opponent (or disarm the opponent if you chose disarm, or grapple the opponent if you chose grapple). Then you avoid silliness like trying to grapple the Huge cloud giant, failing because of the giant has a +32 grapple check, then claiming you hit the giant because you succeeded on the touch attack portion. The fact that you can succeed on a 9 AC touch attack has nothing to do with 'hitting' for the purposes of expert tactician (IMHO). EDIT: Edited to make my example more relevant.
Nutation 06-21-07, 02:21 PM	If I sat down at your table, how would you rule it? A touch attack is certainly a "hit". (What if the opponent has Fire Shield?) The followup attack from Improved Trip is essentially the same circumstance, so the bonus won't stack. A disarm attempt is an "attack" per the rules, but it is resolved with opposed attack rolls. I wouldn't consider it a "hit". Grapple - again, the touch attack is a "hit", regardless of the outcome of the opposed grapple rolls. Sunder - ambiguous, I think I'm on safe ground ruling that you're hitting the item rather than the opponent.
lseelba 06-21-07, 02:59 PM	A touch attack is certainly a "hit". (What if the opponent has Fire Shield?) The followup attack from Improved Trip is essentially the same circumstance, so the bonus won't stack. A disarm attempt is an "attack" per the rules, but it is resolved with opposed attack rolls. I wouldn't consider it a "hit". Grapple - again, the touch attack is a "hit", regardless of the outcome of the opposed grapple rolls. Sunder - ambiguous, I think I'm on safe ground ruling that you're hitting the item rather than the opponent. The followup attack from Improved Trip uses the same modifiers, but its not really the same circumstance because the opponent is now prone and suffers -4 AC.
Nutation 06-21-07, 07:05 PM	The followup attack from Improved Trip uses the same modifiers, but its not really the same circumstance because the opponent is now prone and suffers -4 AC. Let's not get confused about where the circumstance bonus is going. The circumstance is the bonus that I grant to you because I hit on my attack of opportunity. It's different from the circumstance granted to you by the marshal whispering in your ear, but it's not different from the other attack of opportunity I made on the same target because I have Combat Reflexes (or Improved Trip or whatever). Two characters with Expert Tactician may or may not grant stacking circumstance bonuses. I doubt I'll ever have to rule on it.
Iswald 06-21-07, 10:56 PM	You don't have to do damage with this feat to gain the benefits, just hit the target. With your trip attempt, you've hit the target and everyone attacking it will get +2 attack and damage versus it until the start of its next turn. This would include the follow-up attack from improved trip.
Ramacass 06-22-07, 01:53 AM	Let's not get confused about where the circumstance bonus is going. The circumstance is the bonus that I grant to you because I hit on my attack of opportunity. It's different from the circumstance granted to you by the marshal whispering in your ear, but it's not different from the other attack of opportunity I made on the same target because I have Combat Reflexes (or Improved Trip or whatever). Two characters with Expert Tactician may or may not grant stacking circumstance bonuses. I doubt I'll ever have to rule on it. Are you saying that circumstance bonuses stack? because that's news to me. Maybe I didn't understand you point?
awroe 06-22-07, 04:53 AM	You don't have to do damage with this feat to gain the benefits, just hit the target. Hmm, so against hard to hit enemies I should be trying to make touch attacks against them so I hit more easily in my round?
Iswald 06-22-07, 08:51 AM	Hmm, so against hard to hit enemies I should be trying to make touch attacks against them so I hit more easily in my round? You can only do this with an AoO. And, if you're trying to trip somebody but fail... Honestly, I've had this feat on a character for a long time and even being able to use it at all, doesn't happen that much.
Cardinal Teplin 06-22-07, 09:15 AM	Are you saying that circumstance bonuses stack? because that's news to me. Maybe I didn't understand you point? I have no idea about the original point, but yes, circumstance bonuses do stack. With the usual proviso of not stacking if from the same source etc.
Suvarov454 06-23-07, 08:22 PM	I've got a chainwielder too, and I think you need to look at the text of that feat again; I don't think a Fighter can't take it as a bonus feat. I'm waiting until 3rd level.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-24-07, 02:02 AM	I've got a chainwielder too, and I think you need to look at the text of that feat again; I don't think a Fighter can't take it as a bonus feat. I'm waiting until 3rd level. Well, that may be an issue, but if any DM calls me on it*, I'll just introduce him to my friend Mr. Jackson, who tends to be very convincing**. :angelhide OK, so I missed that (thanks), but the question remains valid. At this point I'm still convinced of my initial interpretation, but expect table variation and won't be too resistant if/when it happens. I just have to make sure to bring up the issue before the game begins. * cheating is wrong kids ** so is bribery
Ramacass 06-25-07, 01:10 AM	I have no idea about the original point, but yes, circumstance bonuses do stack. With the usual proviso of not stacking if from the same source etc. So here I've been thinking all this time that only unnamed and dodge bonuses stack and here it turns out circumstance bonuses stack too! That's great for one of my pc's. Where does is specify that, it isn't PHB is it? If it is color me astonished.
lseelba 06-25-07, 01:31 AM	So here I've been thinking all this time that only unnamed and dodge bonuses stack and here it turns out circumstance bonuses stack too! That's great for one of my pc's. Where does is specify that, it isn't PHB is it? If it is color me astonished. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier I seriously doubt the original source is the PHB. Sounds like a DMG thing to me.
Ramacass 06-25-07, 02:53 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier I seriously doubt the original source is the PHB. Sounds like a DMG thing to me. Thanks
Gwumph 06-25-07, 03:24 AM	Now this is strange Because i asked on here not so long ago " Do circumstance bonuses stack from various meta-orgs?" And the answer was a definitive "NO" and in fact a circle member came on and said "NO" too. So I to would love to see the DMG/PHB/FAQ page where circumstance bonuses stack! +20 to all Charisma checks here I come!!
CdrcJsn 06-25-07, 03:57 AM	Now this is strange Because i asked on here not so long ago " Do circumstance bonuses stack from various meta-orgs?" And the answer was a definitive "NO" and in fact a circle member came on and said "NO" too. So I to would love to see the DMG/PHB/FAQ page where circumstance bonuses stack! +20 to all Charisma checks here I come!! Circumstance bonuses from the same source do not stack. Metaorg bonuses were declared to be from the same source, even if from different orgs, so they don't stack.
Gwumph 06-25-07, 04:13 AM	Right Ok What about favor bonus's i.e. you get a +4 circumstance bonus to survival from living with nomads. Different mod you get a +4 circumstance bonus to survival from treking in the desert. Both bonuses come from different sources, neither come from a Meta-org so do they stack? If you add in a Meta-org and its not hard to get a +12 survival bonus with only 1 rank in it. Some how this just doesn't seem right.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-25-07, 05:04 AM	Circumstance bonus - DMG page 21 They stack unless they arise from essentially the same circumstances. Now what exactly is 'essentially the same circumstance' is up to the DM, so ask if you want to stack them in a game. I seem to recall that circumstance bonuses arising from metaorgs are essentally the same source for this purpose (Dispel Confusion Vol 1, No 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20070109a)). For the survival bonus situation, it'd depend on the circumstance/wording of the favors, but I'd be inclined to disallow their stacking as a DM.
Gwumph 06-25-07, 06:11 AM	Well Squirrel After looking at the DMG and dispel Confusion, I agree with you that circumstance bonuses stack. (it so helps when page numbers or Official material is given) But if you are looking for an example of favors look at COR5-17 Time Tide on Bright Sand AR for an example of circumstance skill bonus.
Frumpkis 06-25-07, 08:37 AM	Right Ok What about favor bonus's i.e. you get a +4 circumstance bonus to survival from living with nomads. Different mod you get a +4 circumstance bonus to survival from treking in the desert. Both bonuses come from different sources, neither come from a Meta-org so do they stack? If you add in a Meta-org and its not hard to get a +12 survival bonus with only 1 rank in it. Some how this just doesn't seem right. Personally, unless the exact wording of the favours said otherwise, I'd allow them to stack at my tables. The different ARs are for different adventures, where your PC presumably did different things to earn those circumstance boni. (I also think circumstance boni from different metaorgs should be allowed to stack, but the Circle has already ruled on this matter, so it's not up for discussion)