| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 11:29 AM | I'm suprised I haven't seen anyone try to abuse these rules yet...1d6 per 200lbs per 10ft fallen, +1d6/10ft. For instance, a rhino that falls 10ft onto some unsuspecting mook would deal 30d6 damage by weight alone (6000 lbs), and 1 d6 for falling 10ft, and only take 1d6 damage itself for the fall...And this is right out of the DMG...It doesn't mention if there are any attack rolls or saves involved though...If the rhino is animal growth'd at the time, his weight becomes 48,000 lbs and does 241d6 by falling 10ft... |
| bitznarf02-22-07, 11:51 AM | I'm suprised I haven't seen anyone try to abuse these rules yet...1d6 per 200lbs per 10ft fallen, +1d6/10ft. For instance, a rhino that falls 10ft onto some unsuspecting mook would deal 30d6 damage by weight alone (6000 lbs), and 1 d6 for falling 10ft, and only take 1d6 damage itself for the fall...And this is right out of the DMG...It doesn't mention if there are any attack rolls or saves involved though...If the rhino is animal growth'd at the time, his weight becomes 48,000 lbs and does 241d6 by falling 10ft... Now if only you could consider this a 'downward charge' and get gore involved... |
| Mommy was an Orc02-22-07, 12:49 PM | Except that falling is uncontrolled falling - getting that Rhino to actually fall on a target that you want it to hit isn't particularly easy. And most DMs, especially when you start throwing around 30d6 figures that aren't clear cut tend to rule 0 things. |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 01:02 PM | Except that falling is uncontrolled falling - getting that Rhino to actually fall on a target that you want it to hit isn't particularly easy. And most DMs, especially when you start throwing around 30d6 figures that aren't clear cut tend to rule 0 things. I'd say it's pretty easy to get a large (10x10) rhino to drop 10ft where I want it to, even easier with a huge rhino, especially if the target is medium... Unless otherwise specified, you always fall straight down in d&d. There's no question as to what is required to do the damage. The only thing unlear is if those underneath are entitled to a save of some kind. Reflex for half makes sense to me...A DM has no grounds for saying anything about the damage ammount, though they are entitled to fill in the grey areas, such as adding a save or requiring some kind of attack roll...the DC for the save, as well as the potential attack bonus are both things that would be a problem to set however... |
| Simpi02-22-07, 01:08 PM | A DM has no grounds for saying anything about the damage ammount, though they are entitled to fill in the grey areas, such as adding a save or requiring some kind of attack roll...the DC for the save, as well as the potential attack bonus are both things that would be a problem to set however... Frankly, if I knew in advance that there would be player in the table who has a habit of doing something like that with whatever combinations he might have, I would simply refuse to sit down in that table (either as DM or player). I simply have no interest to see anyone pulling a crap like that and abusing yet another badly worded part of the rules. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad |
| solbergb02-22-07, 01:23 PM | We worked this out on infinite monkeys once. The real problem is you can't aim. With reflex save mechanic you have to hit the right square, and applying improvised weapon rules, the furthest you can aim anything is 50' (with -8 to hit). We then worked out some mechanics for just hitting the square from higher up, but net/net, if it's high enough to do real harm, it is nearly impossible to aim, even if the object is very large. It's also a full round action to aim anything big enough to be really worthwhile, if you "free action drop" it is not aimed, at best attack mod +0 vs the square with scatter rules and reflex saves if you get lucky. The reason it isn't abused much in LG is it is subject to severe, negative table variation. The rules support a pretty nasty set of penalties to make it ineffective as a tactic and the Judge decides what works, not you. Because it is potentially game-breaking, it is also guaranteed to cause a rules discussion. My sorceress in her baby years sometimes rigged things to fall, but I never tried to do falling damage. I relied on splash weapon effects for the damage (gallon jars of oil with alch fire attached, rigged to shatter via craft trapmaking) and even with all that thought and planning, I only really got it to work right once, although I think the setup served as a channeling effect a few times, and twice I got to do "splash" damage from that on small, low to ground animals (swarm in one case, 8 tiny virulently poisonous snakes surrounding a friend in another case). Any time I did use it, I tried to describe it as quickly as possible, then threw myself on the mercy of the DM for the mechanics. The time I actually hit a troll with an entire jug of the stuff, I prefixed the manuver that dropped it on him with a truestrike spell, and then rolled very high on the to-hit dice (we started with a base +0 attack mod and distance modifiers before truestrike was applied and I probably hit without it, so he didn't really have to work out if the spell should apply). |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 01:23 PM | Frankly, if I knew in advance that there would be player in the table who has a habit of doing something like that with whatever combinations he might have, I would simply refuse to sit down in that table (either as DM or player). I simply have no interest to see anyone pulling a crap like that and abusing yet another badly worded part of the rules. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad How is it badly worded? It's very explicit as to how the damage is calculated. The only thing is question is how does it occur, need a save or an attack? And it does make a lot of sense if you think about it. I can't think of anything in D&D that could possibly hurt more than having 24 ton rhino dropped on your head, unless of course it was something larger and heavier still. |
| bitznarf02-22-07, 01:27 PM | We worked this out on infinite monkeys once. The real problem is you can't aim. I think that with a SNA spell you could aim 10 feet up just fine :D |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 01:34 PM | We worked this out on infinite monkeys once. The real problem is you can't aim. With reflex save mechanic you have to hit the right square, and applying improvised weapon rules, the furthest you can aim anything is 50' (with -8 to hit). We then worked out some mechanics for just hitting the square from higher up, but net/net, if it's high enough to do real harm, it is nearly impossible to aim, even if the object is very large. It's also a full round action to aim anything big enough to be really worthwhile, if you "free action drop" it is not aimed, at best attack mod +0 vs the square with scatter rules and reflex saves if you get lucky. The reason it isn't abused much in LG is it is subject to severe, negative table variation. The rules support a pretty nasty set of penalties to make it ineffective as a tactic and the Judge decides what works, not you. Because it is potentially game-breaking, it is also guaranteed to cause a rules discussion. My sorceress in her baby years sometimes rigged things to fall, but I never tried to do falling damage. I relied on splash weapon effects for the damage (gallon jars of oil with alch fire attached, rigged to shatter via craft trapmaking) and even with all that thought and planning, I only really got it to work right once, although I think the setup served as a channeling effect a few times, and twice I got to do "splash" damage from that on small, low to ground animals (swarm in one case, 8 tiny virulently poisonous snakes surrounding a friend in another case). Any time I did use it, I tried to describe it as quickly as possible, then threw myself on the mercy of the DM for the mechanics. The time I actually hit a troll with an entire jug of the stuff, I prefixed the manuver that dropped it on him with a truestrike spell, and then rolled very high on the to-hit dice (we started with a base +0 attack mod and distance modifiers before truestrike was applied and I probably hit without it, so he didn't really have to work out if the spell should apply). You don't need to aim if something is just being dropped. Things drop straight down, barring outside influence. You would only need to aim 10ft when you have a sufficiently heavy object anyway...like an enlarged rhino for instance. I don't think it's physically POSSIBLE for a huge rhino to NOT land in the squares 10ft beneath it, barring a sudden windstorm while it's midair... |
| Simpi02-22-07, 01:39 PM | Edit: Forget it, I don't actually give a damn. |
| bitznarf02-22-07, 01:54 PM | I would simply rule it fails and suggest you stick to actual combat actions like grapple or disarm next round. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Well, I for one don't plan to sit at your table if that is your stance on unusual combat tactics. |
| solbergb02-22-07, 01:58 PM | [QUOTE=Jay_Ibero_911;11557731]You don't need to aim if something is just being dropped. Things drop straight down, barring outside influence. QUOTE] Not so simple. If you are moving, it gains some of that momentum. If you joggle it a few inches at the start off target, it might be off by quite a bit at the bottom. This is why D&D has scatter rules. You don't get an automatic hit, not even on a square beneath you, if you drop a splash weapon. Same principle applies to anything else you drop. This is doubly true when the thing you are targeting is trying to avoid it. If you want to aim, you have to use the mechanics for ranged improvised objects. You do not get the effect of limited wish (the next attack automatically hits) just by dropping something. And also...summon spells don't let you summon things that will fall. They must appear on/in something that will support them. So Summon Nature Ally doesn't let you drop rhino's on anyone and it certainly wouldn't let you aim even if you were allowed to do it. That means you have to summon the rhino, get it into the air somehow, aim it and drop it. It can be done (portable hole or shrink item tend to be the usual approaches). But it isn't easy. |
| DonShard02-22-07, 01:59 PM | Step 1: Summon Rhino Step 2: Dimension Door/Teleport Rhino 10ft above bad guy. "Where'd that rhino go?" <splat> Reflex for half damage. Just because it's not normal doesn't automatically mean failure, at least in my book. And frankly I'd rather see this as a method of killing a bad boss guy than swing/hit/swing/miss/swing ad nauseum. |
| solbergb02-22-07, 02:01 PM | Can't aim if using dim door. You're prevented any actions. So that is at best a +0 attack mod rhino vs the square, with reflex save mechanics if you get lucky. Also the dim door requires a WILLING rhino. Which a dumb animal is unlikely to be without "pushing" it. A bonded rhino animal companion maybe. It stops being clever when it is repeated every combat to do 110 of points of damage for the cost of a dim door spell and ~1000 points of damage by adding an animal growth spell. It then squarely falls under "not well modeled in the rules", since applying animal growth should NOT cause you to do 10x the damage, when it only adds a modest increase to charging rhino damage. Both the falling damage tables and the improvised weapon tables in CV suffer this bad scaling - they should be geometric with weight, not linear, and so they stop working well after you get much more weight than a couple hundred pounds. |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 02:02 PM | You say that if someone actually gets the aforementioned rhino to jump down, he will do 30-180 damage on on relatively low levels. You also refuse to acknowledge any possibility of attack failing on message #4 and even removing all authority from DM to say "stop, it does not work", only allowing for possible reflex-half save, which still flattens nearly any opponent below APL10. No, seriously. As DM or player I have better things to do than have someone argue about the merits of falling rhinos or their capabilites of outdoing everyone in damage. I would not care if you have monk-shadow dancer with boots of levitation and bag of holding with ton of rocks. I would simply rule it fails and suggest you stick to actual combat actions like grapple or disarm next round. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad You really can't just rule it fails just because you don't like it, at least if you don't want to be banned for cheating. No one can argue the damage ammount. Again, the only thing the DM gets to do is decide whether it requires and attack, a save, or perhaps both, because that is the only thing not spelled out in that section of the DMG. The Hulking Hurler ability area attack is probably a good model for what is required (at least with huge or larger objects), except that ability doesn't mention what happens on a successful save, merely stating a failed save results in full damage... |
| Mommy was an Orc02-22-07, 02:02 PM | I'd say it's pretty easy to get a large (10x10) rhino to drop 10ft where I want it to, even easier with a huge rhino, especially if the target is medium... How exactly? You can't use Conjuration spells to Summon Monsters into midair or Dimension Door them there. You dismiss a Levitate/Fly, it gently floats down. A DM has no grounds for saying anything about the damage ammount, though they are entitled to fill in the grey areas, such as adding a save or requiring some kind of attack roll...the DC for the save, as well as the potential attack bonus are both things that would be a problem to set however... And that's the problem - it is a grey area and when someone starts throwing around 30d6 of damage as a result, let alone 241d6 of damage, the to hit/DC rolls tend to be vastly in favor of the thing being targeted rather than the Rhino. I'd also point out that object has a specific meaning in D&D - a Rhino is not an object. You can't as an example cast Shatter on a Rhino to destroy it, despite it being a solid(as opposed to water or gas). There's more than enough ammo right there for a DM to nix a falling Rhino doing that kind of damage and rule 0 an answer. |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 02:05 PM | Can't aim if using dim door. You're prevented any actions. So that is at best a +0 attack mod rhino vs the square, with reflex save mechanics if you get lucky. Care to provide ANY rules text to support that objects don't fall straight down without any outside infulence? It's really quite relevant to the matter at hand. ANd where are these "scatter" mechanics you mention? |
| Mommy was an Orc02-22-07, 02:06 PM | Step 1: Summon Rhino Step 2: Dimension Door/Teleport Rhino 10ft above bad guy. . Step 3: DM pulls out PHB... A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. |
| DonShard02-22-07, 02:08 PM | I'm waaaay rusty on my dim door verbage, but can't you have the door appear on the ground? As in, underneath the rhino? |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 02:09 PM | How exactly? You can't use Conjuration spells to Summon Monsters into midair or Dimension Door them there. You dismiss a Levitate/Fly, it gently floats down. And that's the problem - it is a grey area and when someone starts throwing around 30d6 of damage as a result, let alone 241d6 of damage, the to hit/DC rolls tend to be vastly in favor of the thing being targeted rather than the Rhino. I'd also point out that object has a specific meaning in D&D - a Rhino is not an object. You can't as an example cast Shatter on a Rhino to destroy it, despite it being a solid(as opposed to water or gas). There's more than enough ammo right there for a DM to nix a falling Rhino doing that kind of damage and rule 0 an answer. Ah, finally, a rational argument with support from the rules. At least with respect to objects. I was waiting for something like that...most people on these boards are terrible at arguments...gets quite boring...So by RAW only objects can do damage by falling, and as insane as that may seem in real life, that is how it stands in game... |
| Simpi02-22-07, 02:13 PM | ..... |
| solbergb02-22-07, 02:15 PM | Care to provide ANY rules text to support that objects don't fall straight down without any outside infulence? It's really quite relevant to the matter at hand. ANd where are these "scatter" mechanics you mention? Scatter mechanics are in the PHB, where they describe how splash weapons work. You will find trap mechanics for falling objects, which includes both aimed (target roll) and unaimed (reflex save) mechanics. Note that unaimed involves solid blocks of rock or whatever that can reasonably cover a whole square (a rhino does not...it needs a 2x2x2 cube to fight effectively, but can fit in a 2x2x1 square and even then you can squeeze past it or tumble through) However that isn't actually the point. Since there are no mechanics one way or another for whether a falling object will hit somebody, it is 100% in the hands of the judge, and if you tell a judge you want to do 271d6 damage, he'll make it fail. And he's allowed to do so, because judges are not automotons and are allowed to rule by letter and spirit of rules, and flatly refuse to allow or simply make up mechanics for anything that is not well modeled in the rules. given that a rhino would be killed 15 times over by 271d6, it's impossible for it to do that much damage anyway. It can't probably do more damage than it has hitpoints+10, because it would smush. That's another way to get this rule zeroed away. When it isn't well modeled three things happen. 1. The judge will rule however he feels. 2. You will stop the game for a rules argument/discussion 3. The judge will likely rule as unfavorably as he feels he can, because you're trying to get too much power out of too small an effect. 4th level spells added to an animal companion don't do 30d6 in D&D. There are no 4th and 5th level spell combinations that do 271d6 in D&D. This kind of scaling is what causes the Hulking Hurler "planet destroying" build on the Char Optomization board. The table is broken past a certain point. No Judge or DM in his right mind would allow it, and if you make him find rules for it he will, at the cost of the fun of everyone at the table while the two of you argue. |
| solbergb02-22-07, 02:19 PM | [QUOTE=Jay_Ibero_911;11558022]You really can't just rule it fails just because you don't like it, at least if you don't want to be banned for cheating. [QUOTE] Actually you can, if you rule it is not well modeled in the rules. A circle memeber did this a few years back to rule on tower shields and cover before the FAQ clarified it (in a way that matched the table ruling). After that the LGCS got some extra wording on judges not being automotons and ruling on Letter AND Spirit of rules, and giving freedom for situations not well modeled. 1000 hitpoint-dealing falling rhinos are exactly in the category of what that was designed to prevent - bludgeoning a judge with rules that are obviously and clearly not intended to cause the outcome desired by the player. |
| evilaustintom02-22-07, 02:57 PM | I'll give a couple of examples that might be applicable to this discussion. My first LG character was a wizard who tended to try to use non-standard spells & tactics, such as reducing large objects with shrink item and then dropping them on foes. Now as mentioned in previous messages, the rules on how to fully adjudicate this are not fully lined out in core rules. I would usually sit at a table and mention it to the DM at the beginning of the game. If he didn't like it, or he decided to rule in a certain way, I just went with it. While the amount of damage to be delivered with this tactic was pretty clear (and it is very easy to get enough to get a silly amount of metal in the space that a shrink item has), DMs still ruled on it differently. Often times, DMs would rule that it would cap out at 20d6. While it is true that the DMG doesn't mention a cap, this is the max damage you can take from falling. In any case, I usually went with the ruling, since it was a non-standard tactic, and I wasn't looking to disrupt things. Truth be told, I only usually used the tactic when things were looking bad in combats (like in Highfolk, facing a half-dragon huge fire elemental one-on-one after having just taken on a sorcerer 5 levels above my own level, also single handedly). It saved my rear end those times. The DM rulings on the dropped "Shrink Item item attacks" ranged from: - Reflex save DC 15. - Reflex save DC 13+Int modifier (based on Shrink Item spell level). - Reflex save DC (based on to hit roll of PC, with -4 calculated in for non-proficiency). - Just roll to hit (again with -4 calculated in for non-proficiency). If a save was involved, it was usually an 'all-or-nothing' on the damage it does (not half). Remember, just because an item is 5' or 10', that doesn't mean another creature can't occupy the same space (at least with the previous rhino argument). A falling rhino could still miss a PC if he gets out of the way (therefore the Reflex save). I was never a real fan of the 'roll to hit' option, since I felt something that was super heavy was too unwieldy to be 'aimed'. Still, I just went with however the table DM wanted to rule on it. Finally, late last year I had to DM a table where the PCs knew they were going up against nasty undead (retired Verbobonc module). The undead grappled, and were frankly overpowering. The players had told me ahead of time of a tactic they were intending on using: "We're filling our bags of holding/Heward's Handy Haversacks with holy water (by the gallons full). While flying overhead or being grappled, we turn the bags inside out..." I didn't want to penalize the players for being inventive (and spending all the money on holy water like they were). I came up with a table ruling - while they were being grappled, if they did this, the undead would make a Reflex save DC based on the attack roll of the PC (with -4 non-proficiency), save for 1/2 damage. With the amount of holy water involved, they were going to be doing something like 44d4 of damage, I thought this would be straight-forward enough (but again, admittedly there was no core rules for supporting how I was ruling this). Just a bunch of vials of holy water emptied into a bag of holding (yeah, I know you could make arguements about leaking, but it was a tough enough mod, so I wanted to be generous while still being reasonable). ...Then while the game was being run, I spotted a wrinkle in the whole thing - the creature had positive energy resistance 10. How does THAT work?! I made a quick arbitrary ruling of applying the 10 points to every gallon of water (again, I know, not supported by any rules, but I was winging it). The tactic STILL saved their hides, but barely. In any case...I thought this might be applicable, since the crux of the conversation here is how to rule on dropping heaving things on bad guys. Tom Thowe |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 03:07 PM | [QUOTE=Jay_Ibero_911;11558022]You really can't just rule it fails just because you don't like it, at least if you don't want to be banned for cheating. [QUOTE] Actually you can, if you rule it is not well modeled in the rules. A circle memeber did this a few years back to rule on tower shields and cover before the FAQ clarified it (in a way that matched the table ruling). After that the LGCS got some extra wording on judges not being automotons and ruling on Letter AND Spirit of rules, and giving freedom for situations not well modeled. 1000 hitpoint-dealing falling rhinos are exactly in the category of what that was designed to prevent - bludgeoning a judge with rules that are obviously and clearly not intended to cause the outcome desired by the player. Except the ammount of damage is very clearly spelled out by the rules. As far as an object being able to survive the ammount of damage it deal in that manner, where are your rules to support THAT? Anything that falls simply takes normal falling damage itself. Anything hit by a falling object takes damage based on the wieght of that object and the distance it fell. There is no room for argument on these two points, as they couldn't be more explicitly stated in the DMG. The only part that is not covered is what determines if a creature is hit by a falling object. Any DM that tries to say a medium size creature has no chance of being damaged by a huge object dropped from 10ft over it's head is either quite nuts, or making an illegal ruling just because they don't like the rules. It's quite clear that the spirit of the rules is that having heavy things dropped on you hurts a lot(which makes a great deal of sense really. The DM's responsibility is to decide what mechanic to use to determine if something is hit by a falling object. |
| solbergb02-22-07, 04:03 PM | Jay, you will lose this if you appeal it to a SR DM. Because there is no mechanics for actually using a falling object to target a creature, the Judge is free to make up any mechancs he wants. All you will do is waste time and cause ill feelings. You are taking something clearly not intended by the rules and indeed attempted to close loopholes on between 3.0 and 3.5 to prevent exactly the kind of behavior you are describing (conjuration rules changes) and trying to use the rules like a bludgeon on the Judge. It won't work. Judges win these arguments every time. At most tables, Rhinos with animal growth are not tactical nuclear weapons that can kill gods in one hit, no matter how much you'd like them to be. If you really want to do this the best way is what another poster suggested. Describe what you are trying to do. Then let the Judge work out mechanics and accept them with no argument. Be prepared for the mechanics to be fairly ineffective compared to a normal action. (easy save DC and take no damage if save, etc, or really hard to-hit rolls) Be prepared for him to just say no. |
| KarmaInferno02-22-07, 06:37 PM | If the rhino is animal growth'd at the time, his weight becomes 48,000 lbs When 3.0 first came out, I calculated the cubic footage and weight of a Animal Growthed Dire Bear. Upon showing it to a friend, his reaction was, "My god, that's the size of a mini-mall!" :D I often used the bear just to grapple the most troublesome NPC. That's all it was told to do. Usually by the time we'd finished off the rest of the fight the NPC in question would either be dead or near dead as few ever get enough of a grapple/escape artist check to get loose. In the meanwhile it was basically out of the fight. I usually played it off as the bear just sitting on the NPC. Getting crushed to death by a pair of bear cheeks is just embarrassing. -karma |
| Arvagor02-22-07, 07:38 PM | Because there is no mechanics for actually using a falling object to target a creature, the Judge is free to make up any mechancs he wants. Aerial Bombardment rules are in Heroes of Battle, pages 67-69. In a nutshell... Dropped objects have a range increment of 50 feet Objects dropped from higher than 250 feet are considered "indirect hits" (the rules on this part seem a little vague, and may just mean that cover at the target location is ignored) Creature dropping the object rolls to hit AC 5 (when directly targetting a square), adjusted for range, and -4 for improvised weapon. Additional penalties apply if the creature has average (-2), poor (-4), or clumsy (-6) maneuverability Attacks that miss use the PHB diagram for missing with thrown weapons (page 158) Damage dealt is based on weight of object Any creature in the square that is hit can avoid all damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save Diving creatures get +2 on the attack roll but -2 to AC (it's treated as a charge); range increments are calculated from where the object is dropped, but the length of the dive is added to the actual falling distance to determine damage Per the DMG, page 303, damage is capped at 20d6 |
| bhale18702-22-07, 07:53 PM | Aerial Bombardment rules are in Heroes of Battle, pages 67-69. In a nutshell... Dropped objects have a range increment of 50 feet Objects dropped from higher than 250 feet are considered "indirect hits" (the rules on this part seem a little vague, and may just mean that cover at the target location is ignored) Creature dropping the object rolls to hit AC 5 (when directly targetting a square), adjusted for range, and -4 for improvised weapon. Additional penalties apply if the creature has average (-2), poor (-4), or clumsy (-6) maneuverability Attacks that miss use the PHB diagram for missing with thrown weapons (page 158) Damage dealt is based on weight of object Any creature in the square that is hit can avoid all damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save Diving creatures get +2 on the attack roll but -2 to AC (it's treated as a charge); range increments are calculated from where the object is dropped, but the length of the dive is added to the actual falling distance to determine damage Per the DMG, page 303, damage is capped at 20d6 !!!!THUNDERING APPLAUSE!!!! Seriously though I was looking everywhere for some rules that better fit such a circumstance to no avail. Appearantly my problem was Heros of Battle is the one LG accepted book I do not own. |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 08:14 PM | !!!!THUNDERING APPLAUSE!!!! Seriously though I was looking everywhere for some rules that better fit such a circumstance to no avail. Appearantly my problem was Heros of Battle is the one LG accepted book I do not own. Good find. Satisfies me. |
| Sithobi102-22-07, 08:31 PM | The one thing I'm not liking there is the cap from the DMG, which isn't there... |
| solbergb02-22-07, 08:34 PM | Yeah. It's similar to the improvised mechanics worked out by various judges for the shrink-item poster. Just be aware that as Heroes of Battle rules are all optional, they aren't enforcable in LG. If you want to do this, get a copy of the book and have it ready to show the judge as a *suggestion*. If he doesn't like the mechanics, he is free to change them however he likes. But having the framework to work with, he'll likely do something pretty close to that. DC15 for no damage and 20d6 damage cap is a mechanic most folks can live with, but it's not something you'd want an author pulling out at APL2-4 or even APL6. |
| Arvagor02-22-07, 08:46 PM | The one thing I'm not liking there is the cap from the DMG, which isn't there... Page 303... "For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). |
| Arvagor02-22-07, 08:49 PM | Seriously though I was looking everywhere for some rules that better fit such a circumstance to no avail. Appearantly my problem was Heros of Battle is the one LG accepted book I do not own.What's not to like, when you have this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hob_gallery/89514.jpg followed by this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hob_gallery/89515.jpg :shocked: |
| ShinAkuma202-22-07, 08:56 PM | Page 303... "For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). Hm, I never thought about that before...Usually, I took it that distance caps, but separately from weight. However, I think it might be that distance and weight cap together for 20d6 damage. So once an object reaches 4000 lbs, it doesn't matter if it's 20 feet or 200 feet...You're either squished or you're not... |
| Sithobi102-22-07, 09:55 PM | Since the cap is in the sentence solely devoted to damage from distance... I'd say that it's not capping the damage from weight by RAW, but if it works for you...*shrug* |
| Arvagor02-22-07, 10:13 PM | Since the cap is in the sentence solely devoted to damage from distance... I'd say that it's not capping the damage from weight by RAW, but if it works for you...*shrug*And IMO, the damage clause is positioned and phrased such that it applies to the entire paragraph... *shrug* I tend to look at it in the framework of conservation of momentum, and/or elastic collisions. I'll admit my HS physics is a little rusty at this point, but it makes sense to me that if a creature is dealt a maximum of 20d6 by falling and hitting something, that the "something" is similarly dealt a maximum of 20d6 by being hit-- both sides of the energy equation are equal. It's the simplest answer, and it fits within the rules as described. |
| bitznarf02-22-07, 10:19 PM | Heh, this is D&D, physics need not apply. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 03:29 AM | next big questions How much does 2 cubic feet of rock weigh? Shrink object does 2 cubic feet per level. So if we have a standard for weight of stone per cubic foot, makes it easier to know much damage it will be doing. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 03:37 AM | Well I am gonna answer my own question. Granite-solid 168lbs per cubic foot or Oak -live/dry 59lbs per cubic foot or my personal favorite :D Manure - 25lbs per cubic foot LOL Anyways for those of you wishing to check my facts here is the link. http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html Cheers Gwumph p.s. not sure if i got hyperlink right here is normal http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html |
| cycloptic_squirrel02-23-07, 04:31 AM | Meh, I just try to remember that people using/abusing/twisting the rules to get a huge advantage usually doesn't sit right with many people; that usually goes for the DM as well (guilty here), and the DM is the last person you want thinking you're not playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Then again, there's always something to be said for the "OMG, you're actually going to try that? I don't think that's technically allowed by the rules, but I have to let this one slide, because in the off chance it does work, it is going to be amazingly cool." (Guilty of that too). About the topic at hand, my rhino physiology isn't what it should be, but if they're anything like elephants, they can't jump worth a damn. Which I would take as their knees are not going to withstand a lot of damage. If it's something from a bag of tricks, it'd work; but a mount or companion might result in a very unpleased tablemate. It would still be pretty awsome to see though. Once I learn the spell, I've already decided that I'm going to scribe a scroll or two of shrink item, just in the off chance the party runs across an abandoned anvil. Quick fly or a hawk fmailiar should be able to produce some cartoonic effects. :P |