Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 04-27-07, 11:36 AM	Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. (Tumble skill) Special: If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Int 13. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. If I'm reading this right, here's a breakdown: Level 2 Rogue (light encumberance) fights defensively: -4 attack, +2 dodge AC Has 5 Ranks in Tumble: -4 attack, +3 dodge AC Has Combat Expertise only: -1 attack, +1 dodge AC Has Combat Expertise and 5 Ranks in Tumble: -1 attack, +1 dodge AC Couldn't find this in the PHB FAQ. So basically I have 2 questions: 1) If you have Combat Expertise what effect does 5 ranks in tumbling have? It seems that using Combat Expertise may not be the same thing as fighting defensively...which implies question #2 2) Can fighting defensively be stacked with Combat Expertise?
Howie23 04-27-07, 11:46 AM	So basically I have 2 questions: 1) If you have Combat Expertise what effect does 5 ranks in tumbling have? It seems that using Combat Expertise may not be the same thing as fighting defensively...which implies question #2 2) Can fighting defensively be stacked with Combat Expertise? 1) None, if only using combat expertise. 2) I have thought so, but the question that gets raised on a deeper look is the requirement in Fighting Defensively that doing so requires a standard action. I'm not making a statement about it one way or the other at this point, merely observing where the possible problem is. Gonna go scratch the noggin a bit. (edit) #2 above is wrong. Fighting Defensively requires an attack or full attack, not a std action of its own. It explicitly stacks with C.Expertise in the PHB, but not the SRD. See posts below. David
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 12:00 PM	2) I have thought so, but the question that gets raised on a deeper look is the requirement in Fighting Defensively that doing so requires a standard action. I'm not making a statement about it one way or the other at this point, merely observing where the possible problem is. Gonna go scratch the noggin a bit. David That's not quite right - you have the option of fighting defensively when taking a full-round or standard action. If you're using 5 points of Combat Expertise while taking a full attack, you're making a full-round action. You can therefore fight defensively.
Howie23 04-27-07, 12:17 PM	That's not quite right - you have the option of fighting defensively when taking a full-round or standard action. If you're using 5 points of Combat Expertise while taking a full attack, you're making a full-round action. You can therefore fight defensively. Thanks Mommy. You know, I've headed down the wrong path on this twice now. My mind has trouble getting around the way that Fighting Defensively is put forward for both standard and full round actions. I think last time I did this, I had somehow convinced myself that Fighting Defensively required a full-round action because of full-round entry. Annoying. Fighting Defensively explicitly stacks with Combat Expertise per the PHB, at least for a standard action FD; don't know if the OP missed it or if it isn't in the SRD that he referenced. Fighting Defensively can also be used w/full round action. The rest is just to fill out the logic: It seems clear that FD is a way of using the attack/full attack actions, not a stadard action or full round action of its own. Combat Expertise is also not an action of it's own. David
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 12:44 PM	Thanks Mommy. You know, I've headed down the wrong path on this twice now. My mind has trouble getting around the way that Fighting Defensively is put forward for both standard and full round actions. I think last time I did this, I had somehow convinced myself that Fighting Defensively required a full-round action because of full-round entry. Annoying. No problem - oh, in case it also isn't obvious - Fighting Defensively does not require a melee attack as Combat Expertise does - if you're fighting in point blank range/facing a ray specialist and have 5 ranks of tumble, fighting defensively while shooting arrows is sometimes not a bad idea...many people miss this part of fighting defensively.
katrick 04-27-07, 12:44 PM	the confusion probably arises from the Total Defanse action which doesn't stack with either and is a standard action, not an attack action (about three paragraphs/sub headings before Fighting Defensively) Katrick
Arvagor 04-27-07, 01:45 PM	Fighting Defensively explicitly stacks with Combat Expertise per the PHB, at least for a standard action FD; don't know if the OP missed it or if it isn't in the SRD that he referenced.It's not in the SRD at all -- a subtle difference between the SRD and the PHB that can make all the difference if you rely on CE in combat :) I find my 2+ levels of Thief-Acrobat greatly simplifies things... With the Dodge bonuses that the 'Agile Fighting (Ex)' ability gives you, you can combine fighting defensively and/or Combat Expertise for any combination from -1 to -9 on attacks for a corresponding +1 to +9 on your AC ;)
thorinXXX 04-28-07, 03:05 PM	It's not in the SRD at all -- a subtle difference between the SRD and the PHB that can make all the difference if you rely on CE in combat :) I find my 2+ levels of Thief-Acrobat greatly simplifies things... With the Dodge bonuses that the 'Agile Fighting (Ex)' ability gives you, you can combine fighting defensively and/or Combat Expertise for any combination from -1 to -9 on attacks for a corresponding +1 to +9 on your AC ;) Now all you need id a Defending weapon. I love the Rapier of the Rogue.:D
Reylance 04-29-07, 01:14 AM	Impressive if you have the Rapier of the Rogue and you're not yet retired. Both of my characters with the item are retired. :D
thorinXXX 04-29-07, 01:49 PM	Impressive if you have the Rapier of the Rogue and you're not yet retired. Both of my characters with the item are retired. :D Yeah, frequent trips to Iraq put a crimp in gaming.:( I think all of my year 1 characters are at least 3rd level.:cool:
Suvarov454 05-02-07, 09:01 PM	I find my 2+ levels of Thief-Acrobat greatly simplifies things... With the Dodge bonuses that the 'Agile Fighting (Ex)' ability gives you, you can combine fighting defensively and/or Combat Expertise for any combination from -1 to -9 on attacks for a corresponding +1 to +9 on your AC ;) As does the much-maligned Two Weapon Defense feat (it's +1 shield bonus increases to +2 while fighting defensively or with total defense). Improved TWD and Greater TWD are each incrementally better (if exceptionally feat intensive). I also point out that the Elaborate Parry class feature of a 7th level Dervish gives an unnamed +4 bonus to AC when fighting defensively (or with total defense). Finally, be sure to take the Deadly Defense feat for an extra +1d6 damage with any Weapon Finessable weapon when fighting defensively (or taking at least -2 to hit with Combat Expertise).
Arvagor 05-02-07, 09:16 PM	Impressive if you have the Rapier of the Rogue and you're not yet retired. Both of my characters with the item are retired. :DWhat book is that in?
thorinXXX 05-03-07, 05:48 PM	What book is that in? None. It is from a year 2 adaptable Snake in the Grass. It is a +1 rapier that gets better the more adventures that you use it, as long as you have the Sneak Attack ability. After 10 adventures it becomes +2. After 10 more it becomes a +2 Defender. The catch is that if anyone else uses it it reverts back to +1 and the count starts over.
JamesMaissen 05-04-07, 01:48 AM	None. It is from a year 2 adaptable Snake in the Grass. It is a +1 rapier that gets better the more adventures that you use it, as long as you have the Sneak Attack ability. After 10 adventures it becomes +2. After 10 more it becomes a +2 Defender. The catch is that if anyone else uses it it reverts back to +1 and the count starts over. Well to be picky, it's anyone else with sneak attack dice. -James
Zanzibax 05-07-07, 07:39 PM	Yeah, frequent trips to Iraq put a crimp in gaming.:( I think all of my year 1 characters are at least 3rd level.:cool: I get similar looks when I mention Inferno's Bite. Unrelated to military service...but otherwise similar levels for year a 1 character.