Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThaiGQ 08-14-07, 06:04 PM	Hey guys, this recently came up in a game and I was just wondering what your opinions are. If a character with Uncanny Dodge is caught flat-footed, either from not yet having acted during the first round of combat or from being feinted, do they retain their Dexterity bonus but lose their dodge bonuses (via the Dodge feat, fighting defensively, combat expertise, etc...)? Or does the Uncanny Dodge still allow them to retain their dodge bonuses as well?
mlund 08-14-07, 06:14 PM	I read them to go hand-in-hand. If you are denied your Dex, you lose your Dodge. If something can not deny you your Dex (due to being trumped by Uncanny Dodge) then you don't lose your Dodge. - Marty Lund
Southernskies 08-14-07, 09:31 PM	Being "Flat Footed" and being "Denied your Dex" are two different conditions. Uncanny dodge prevents you from being "flat footed". This condition only applies if you are surprised (first round of combat) OR using the balance skill (due to wording in the PHB). Although table 8-6 on Pg151 also adds climbing, the skill text overrides this (as per the errata rules for text vs table issues). It does not prevent you from being "denied your dex" if you fail against a feint. You are also "denied your dex" if you are Blinded, Cowering, Grappling or Stunned, or if the attacker is invisible. (PHB pg 151). Strictly speaking, you aren't "denied your dex" while helpless, but the rules for the condition allow sneak attack. Uncanny Dodge helps, but there are *many* ways to sneak attack/death attack someone that has it.
trollbill 08-14-07, 09:53 PM	Being "Flat Footed" and being "Denied your Dex" are two different conditions. Uncanny dodge prevents you from being "flat footed". This condition only applies if you are surprised (first round of combat) OR using the balance skill (due to wording in the PHB). Although table 8-6 on Pg151 also adds climbing, the skill text overrides this (as per the errata rules for text vs table issues). It does not prevent you from being "denied your dex" if you fail against a feint. You are also "denied your dex" if you are Blinded, Cowering, Grappling or Stunned, or if the attacker is invisible. (PHB pg 151). Strictly speaking, you aren't "denied your dex" while helpless, but the rules for the condition allow sneak attack. Uncanny Dodge helps, but there are *many* ways to sneak attack/death attack someone that has it. You need to re-read Uncanny Dodge. It does not prevent you from being flat-footed. Specifically it states: Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. So a character with Uncanny Dodge is still Flat-footed, he just doesn't suffer the normal loss of Dexterity while being Flat-footed. He does suffer any other effects, though. Such as the inability to take AoOs (unless he has Combat Reflexes). Now under Dodge it says: Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character’s Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have (for instance, you lose any dodge bonuses to AC when you’re flat-footed). Since Uncanny Dodge prevents you from losing your Dexterity bonus in many situations, then you would also not lose your Dodge bonus. I can't see any situtation that would deny you one and not the other.
KShaver 08-15-07, 08:34 AM	Since Uncanny Dodge prevents you from losing your Dexterity bonus in many situations, then you would also not lose your Dodge bonus. I can't see any situtation that would deny you one and not the other. The concern I see is in what the current situation is that the character has all these dodge bonuses. If it is the first round of combat and he is caught flat footed he may retain his dex bonus, but he wouldn't have had a chance to pick a dodge target, use combat expertise, or to fight defensively. The only kind of dodge bonuses that should apply would be automatic ones, like the gnomish +4 vs giants.
thorinXXX 08-18-07, 12:55 AM	The concern I see is in what the current situation is that the character has all these dodge bonuses. If it is the first round of combat and he is caught flat footed he may retain his dex bonus, but he wouldn't have had a chance to pick a dodge target, use combat expertise, or to fight defensively. The only kind of dodge bonuses that should apply would be automatic ones, like the gnomish +4 vs giants. There you have it. The character never had those bonuses, so he has no bonuses to lose. As written a character with Uncanny Dodge retains his Dex bonus and Dodge bonuses when flat fotted.
KShaver 08-20-07, 10:52 AM	There you have it. The character never had those bonuses, so he has no bonuses to lose. As written a character with Uncanny Dodge retains his Dex bonus and Dodge bonuses when flat fotted. Well I could come up with a couple of different situations where he could be flat footed during the middle of combat, but really we need to know the exact situation to be able to make any sort of judgement on what was happening. To OP - Remember that being flat-footed is a specific condition seperate from being denied your dex to ac. Uncanny dodge prevents you from losing you dex bonus while being flat-footed, it does not work on other conditions/abilities that deny you your dex bonus to AC: First round of combat & has not acted yet - Flat Footed Feinted - Denied Dex to AC Invisible Opponent - Denied Dex to AC Balancing (w/o 5 ranks of balance) - Flat Footed
ThaiGQ 08-20-07, 06:55 PM	To OP - Remember that being flat-footed is a specific condition seperate from being denied your dex to ac. Uncanny dodge prevents you from losing you dex bonus while being flat-footed, it does not work on other conditions/abilities that deny you your dex bonus to AC: First round of combat & has not acted yet - Flat Footed Feinted - Denied Dex to AC Invisible Opponent - Denied Dex to AC Balancing (w/o 5 ranks of balance) - Flat Footed But under Uncanny Dodge, it even states that you still retain your Dex bonus when attacked by an invisible opponent: Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. This suggests to me that you would retain your Dex bonuses (and thus your Dodge bonuses) in all situations (with the exception of being immobilized), with the examples given in the description not being all inclusive of the situations where you might lose your Dex bonuses.
trollbill 08-21-07, 12:03 AM	The concern I see is in what the current situation is that the character has all these dodge bonuses. If it is the first round of combat and he is caught flat footed he may retain his dex bonus, but he wouldn't have had a chance to pick a dodge target, use combat expertise, or to fight defensively. The only kind of dodge bonuses that should apply would be automatic ones, like the gnomish +4 vs giants. I would think that would go without saying. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from losing Dodge bonuses you currently have. It doesn't allow you to gain Dodge bonuses you haven't been able to activate yet.
KShaver 08-21-07, 10:53 AM	But under Uncanny Dodge, it even states that you still retain your Dex bonus when attacked by an invisible opponent: This suggests to me that you would retain your Dex bonuses (and thus your Dodge bonuses) in all situations (with the exception of being immobilized), with the examples given in the description not being all inclusive of the situations where you might lose your Dex bonuses. While uncanny dodge may also work against invisible creatures, it says nothing about working in all situations where you would be denied your dex. Feint still works just fine on such a character.