Flensing Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flensing Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkKnight
02-08-06, 06:06 PM I'm not sure if this was cought or not yet but I was going over the list of Core spells and noticed that the spell "Flensing" in on the Core Spell List. This kind of surprised me as "Flensing" is an EVIL spell and is all about torturing a subject.

Hopefully this was a mistake and can/will be corrected.
aterrill
02-08-06, 07:23 PM My friends and I have run in to several situation where evil spells are being used on a regular basis by pc's and no enforcement was taking place from the GM. Basically if the GM doesn't step in it means that one player can basically sit there and torture an npc, destroying the mod for the rest of the group and they can't do a thing about it without violating rpga rules.

A section covering the use of evil descriptor spells, or marking them as npc only would make these situations a whole lot less stressful on both the GMs and the players.
haferka
02-08-06, 09:30 PM I can almost guarantee that "those PCs" belong to the BK. We understand the "usefullness" of those spells. I personally do NOT want to see any such ruling.

Evil acts should be determined by the exact situation, not just the spells descriptor. Otherwise "good/lawfull/chaotic" spells would shift players alignment also.
DarkKnight
02-08-06, 10:04 PM This spell is a little different from most spells. The SOLE purpose of this spell is to torture its target. This spell has a history, at least with the Red Wizards, and used to be a banned, sorry restricked, spell and with good reason.

This spell is different than using a Summon spell to get an evil outsider (an evil spell), this spell is meant to inflict pain for the sake of pain (which is not just an evil spell but an evil act).

Any PC who uses this spell should have their alignment shifted one step closer to evil and/or should have their character taken away.
theliel
02-09-06, 10:27 AM This spell is a little different from most spells. The SOLE purpose of this spell is to torture its target. This spell has a history, at least with the Red Wizards, and used to be a banned, sorry restricked, spell and with good reason.

This spell is different than using a Summon spell to get an evil outsider (an evil spell), this spell is meant to inflict pain for the sake of pain (which is not just an evil spell but an evil act).

Any PC who uses this spell should have their alignment shifted one step closer to evil and/or should have their character taken away.
so we should also restrict Wrack to npc only?
A'Talsen
02-09-06, 10:46 AM While I don't agree that an Evil discriptor makes casting the spell an 'evil act', I too would love to see a specific ruling on it.

Whether casting evil spells is or is not an evil act should be spelled out in the LGCS. Since the whole 'evil act' thing is an LG rule to begin with, it would be entirely approprate to list what is and what is not an evil act in the LGCS.

Micahel Murphy

My friends and I have run in to several situation where evil spells are being used on a regular basis by pc's and no enforcement was taking place from the GM. Basically if the GM doesn't step in it means that one player can basically sit there and torture an npc, destroying the mod for the rest of the group and they can't do a thing about it without violating rpga rules.

A section covering the use of evil descriptor spells, or marking them as npc only would make these situations a whole lot less stressful on both the GMs and the players.
haferka
02-09-06, 12:01 PM This spell is a little different from most spells. The SOLE purpose of this spell is to torture its target. This spell has a history, at least with the Red Wizards, and used to be a banned, sorry restricked, spell and with good reason.

This spell is different than using a Summon spell to get an evil outsider (an evil spell), this spell is meant to inflict pain for the sake of pain (which is not just an evil spell but an evil act).

Any PC who uses this spell should have their alignment shifted one step closer to evil and/or should have their character taken away.

OK, I will come up with a situation that uses the spell... in a NON-evil way:

A masacistic NPC requests "toture" in order to gain a bit of usefull information.... Use the spell, and you dont have to physicly torture them... which might be detrimental to your mental health...

Ive seen very disturbed PC characters (mentally damaged) that would love to cast the spell on others and/or themselves.

The spell is definitly something I could see NPCs casting...
Create a "living spell" version of the spell, would just be awsome....
I believe that is now in one of the Moster Manuals... not just the Eberron stuff...?
Simpi
02-09-06, 01:02 PM My friends and I have run in to several situation where evil spells are being used on a regular basis by pc's and no enforcement was taking place from the GM. Basically if the GM doesn't step in it means that one player can basically sit there and torture an npc, destroying the mod for the rest of the group and they can't do a thing about it without violating rpga rules.

What you mean destroying the module for others? They get offended when said PCs roughs up the NPC? I've ran few tables where PCs do pretty gruesome torture (followed by execution naturally) and one local player uses profane boost & inflict spells all the time. I don't find anything wrong with that.

And more importantly. It's an 8th level spell! Come on, wizards can take it at 15th level and sorcerers won't be taking it before reaching high level campaign. With stuff like Polar Ray on 8th level spell list, is anyone really going to take a spell which does relatively little damage and which's ability damage can be by negated by fortitude save, leaving you with a spell that does whopping 8d6 points of damage.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
Elfen_Archangel
02-09-06, 02:10 PM is anyone really going to take a spell which does relatively little damage and which's ability damage can be by negated by fortitude save, leaving you with a spell that does whopping 8d6 points of damage.

S.H, the guy from Naerie

...I would!!! With a 30 intelligence that makes the save a 28, and that's not saying that it isn't "spinned" or spell focus'd. So worst case scenario, someone could make the save a 35. That's hard to hit for some barbarians! It's nigh on impossible for a caster type. If you want to take out the wizard, flay off his skin. If you're expensive, pick up a greater rod of empower. The wizard may last 2 rounds, but I doubt it.
Sieylianna
02-09-06, 07:02 PM ...I would!!! With a 30 intelligence that makes the save a 28, and that's not saying that it isn't "spinned" or spell focus'd. So worst case scenario, someone could make the save a 35. That's hard to hit for some barbarians! It's nigh on impossible for a caster type. If you want to take out the wizard, flay off his skin. If you're expensive, pick up a greater rod of empower. The wizard may last 2 rounds, but I doubt it.

If you get through SR and spell turning, my grey elven straight wizard has a +18 Fortitude saving throw and multiple rerolls. At the kind of levels you are talking about, no one has bad saving throws, some are just better than others.

Ed
Itsa_Trika
02-09-06, 07:24 PM Whether casting evil spells is or is not an evil act should be spelled out in the LGCS. Since the whole 'evil act' thing is an LG rule to begin with, it would be entirely approprate to list what is and what is not an evil act in the LGCS.

The manner in which this should be adjudicated has been disseminated through the triads, although I do not know if it was ever put into black and white (such as the LGCS). Per the Circle, Evil spells do not necessarily constitute an evil act. The method in which all spells are used determines the moral alignment of that situation and is up to the discretion of the judge.
redgamer
02-09-06, 10:50 PM The Circle has said more than once that they will not provide a list of evil acts. They are leaving that up to judges and triads to adjudicate. I don't really see why anyone would let another characters actions ruin a players enjoyment of a mod. If one character does something your character thinks is evil roleplay accordingly. Only in very rare cases should that come to: "Well if this weren't LG my character would now fight yours to the death over that act"
Maesto
02-10-06, 09:57 AM How on oerth are people getting mental stats in excess of 29 (27 for cha and wis) by 15th level? Consider the following:

Starting stat of 18 (+2 for int if grey elf).
Boosts to mental stat at 4, 8, and 12 - gets to 21 (23).
+6 stat boost item gets to 27 (29).

The only other boost that I know of to a stat is an inherent bonus, and the only time I've ever seen one of those was in the year 4 mod, Shedding Scales, where my DM couldn't read the module, so nobody got anything. However, this will only get the stat to 28 (30); how am I hearing of characters with charisma 32-34???

Cheers,

Jolyon
Arvagor
02-10-06, 10:25 AM How on oerth are people getting mental stats in excess of 29 (27 for cha and wis) by 15th level?Tome of clear thought? Improperly stacking a headband of intellect and a scarlet and blue ioun stone?
Sieylianna
02-10-06, 12:36 PM How on oerth are people getting mental stats in excess of 29 (27 for cha and wis) by 15th level? Consider the following:

Starting stat of 18 (+2 for int if grey elf).
Boosts to mental stat at 4, 8, and 12 - gets to 21 (23).
+6 stat boost item gets to 27 (29).

Retirement used to be 18th, not 16th. That's an extra stat bump.

I've also seen temporary ability bonuses, for example, my main PC received a +2 sacred bonus to Intelligence for the next 10 modules.

There are also tomes available in the campaign.

And some is doubtless poor rules knowledge.

Ed

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkKnight 02-08-06, 06:06 PM	I'm not sure if this was cought or not yet but I was going over the list of Core spells and noticed that the spell "Flensing" in on the Core Spell List. This kind of surprised me as "Flensing" is an EVIL spell and is all about torturing a subject. Hopefully this was a mistake and can/will be corrected.
aterrill 02-08-06, 07:23 PM	My friends and I have run in to several situation where evil spells are being used on a regular basis by pc's and no enforcement was taking place from the GM. Basically if the GM doesn't step in it means that one player can basically sit there and torture an npc, destroying the mod for the rest of the group and they can't do a thing about it without violating rpga rules. A section covering the use of evil descriptor spells, or marking them as npc only would make these situations a whole lot less stressful on both the GMs and the players.
haferka 02-08-06, 09:30 PM	I can almost guarantee that "those PCs" belong to the BK. We understand the "usefullness" of those spells. I personally do NOT want to see any such ruling. Evil acts should be determined by the exact situation, not just the spells descriptor. Otherwise "good/lawfull/chaotic" spells would shift players alignment also.
DarkKnight 02-08-06, 10:04 PM	This spell is a little different from most spells. The SOLE purpose of this spell is to torture its target. This spell has a history, at least with the Red Wizards, and used to be a banned, sorry restricked, spell and with good reason. This spell is different than using a Summon spell to get an evil outsider (an evil spell), this spell is meant to inflict pain for the sake of pain (which is not just an evil spell but an evil act). Any PC who uses this spell should have their alignment shifted one step closer to evil and/or should have their character taken away.
theliel 02-09-06, 10:27 AM	This spell is a little different from most spells. The SOLE purpose of this spell is to torture its target. This spell has a history, at least with the Red Wizards, and used to be a banned, sorry restricked, spell and with good reason. This spell is different than using a Summon spell to get an evil outsider (an evil spell), this spell is meant to inflict pain for the sake of pain (which is not just an evil spell but an evil act). Any PC who uses this spell should have their alignment shifted one step closer to evil and/or should have their character taken away. so we should also restrict Wrack to npc only?
A'Talsen 02-09-06, 10:46 AM	While I don't agree that an Evil discriptor makes casting the spell an 'evil act', I too would love to see a specific ruling on it. Whether casting evil spells is or is not an evil act should be spelled out in the LGCS. Since the whole 'evil act' thing is an LG rule to begin with, it would be entirely approprate to list what is and what is not an evil act in the LGCS. Micahel Murphy My friends and I have run in to several situation where evil spells are being used on a regular basis by pc's and no enforcement was taking place from the GM. Basically if the GM doesn't step in it means that one player can basically sit there and torture an npc, destroying the mod for the rest of the group and they can't do a thing about it without violating rpga rules. A section covering the use of evil descriptor spells, or marking them as npc only would make these situations a whole lot less stressful on both the GMs and the players.
haferka 02-09-06, 12:01 PM	This spell is a little different from most spells. The SOLE purpose of this spell is to torture its target. This spell has a history, at least with the Red Wizards, and used to be a banned, sorry restricked, spell and with good reason. This spell is different than using a Summon spell to get an evil outsider (an evil spell), this spell is meant to inflict pain for the sake of pain (which is not just an evil spell but an evil act). Any PC who uses this spell should have their alignment shifted one step closer to evil and/or should have their character taken away. OK, I will come up with a situation that uses the spell... in a NON-evil way: A masacistic NPC requests "toture" in order to gain a bit of usefull information.... Use the spell, and you dont have to physicly torture them... which might be detrimental to your mental health... Ive seen very disturbed PC characters (mentally damaged) that would love to cast the spell on others and/or themselves. The spell is definitly something I could see NPCs casting... Create a "living spell" version of the spell, would just be awsome.... I believe that is now in one of the Moster Manuals... not just the Eberron stuff...?
Simpi 02-09-06, 01:02 PM	My friends and I have run in to several situation where evil spells are being used on a regular basis by pc's and no enforcement was taking place from the GM. Basically if the GM doesn't step in it means that one player can basically sit there and torture an npc, destroying the mod for the rest of the group and they can't do a thing about it without violating rpga rules. What you mean destroying the module for others? They get offended when said PCs roughs up the NPC? I've ran few tables where PCs do pretty gruesome torture (followed by execution naturally) and one local player uses profane boost & inflict spells all the time. I don't find anything wrong with that. And more importantly. It's an 8th level spell! Come on, wizards can take it at 15th level and sorcerers won't be taking it before reaching high level campaign. With stuff like Polar Ray on 8th level spell list, is anyone really going to take a spell which does relatively little damage and which's ability damage can be by negated by fortitude save, leaving you with a spell that does whopping 8d6 points of damage. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Elfen_Archangel 02-09-06, 02:10 PM	is anyone really going to take a spell which does relatively little damage and which's ability damage can be by negated by fortitude save, leaving you with a spell that does whopping 8d6 points of damage. S.H, the guy from Naerie ...I would!!! With a 30 intelligence that makes the save a 28, and that's not saying that it isn't "spinned" or spell focus'd. So worst case scenario, someone could make the save a 35. That's hard to hit for some barbarians! It's nigh on impossible for a caster type. If you want to take out the wizard, flay off his skin. If you're expensive, pick up a greater rod of empower. The wizard may last 2 rounds, but I doubt it.
Sieylianna 02-09-06, 07:02 PM	...I would!!! With a 30 intelligence that makes the save a 28, and that's not saying that it isn't "spinned" or spell focus'd. So worst case scenario, someone could make the save a 35. That's hard to hit for some barbarians! It's nigh on impossible for a caster type. If you want to take out the wizard, flay off his skin. If you're expensive, pick up a greater rod of empower. The wizard may last 2 rounds, but I doubt it. If you get through SR and spell turning, my grey elven straight wizard has a +18 Fortitude saving throw and multiple rerolls. At the kind of levels you are talking about, no one has bad saving throws, some are just better than others. Ed
Itsa_Trika 02-09-06, 07:24 PM	Whether casting evil spells is or is not an evil act should be spelled out in the LGCS. Since the whole 'evil act' thing is an LG rule to begin with, it would be entirely approprate to list what is and what is not an evil act in the LGCS. The manner in which this should be adjudicated has been disseminated through the triads, although I do not know if it was ever put into black and white (such as the LGCS). Per the Circle, Evil spells do not necessarily constitute an evil act. The method in which all spells are used determines the moral alignment of that situation and is up to the discretion of the judge.
redgamer 02-09-06, 10:50 PM	The Circle has said more than once that they will not provide a list of evil acts. They are leaving that up to judges and triads to adjudicate. I don't really see why anyone would let another characters actions ruin a players enjoyment of a mod. If one character does something your character thinks is evil roleplay accordingly. Only in very rare cases should that come to: "Well if this weren't LG my character would now fight yours to the death over that act"
Maesto 02-10-06, 09:57 AM	How on oerth are people getting mental stats in excess of 29 (27 for cha and wis) by 15th level? Consider the following: Starting stat of 18 (+2 for int if grey elf). Boosts to mental stat at 4, 8, and 12 - gets to 21 (23). +6 stat boost item gets to 27 (29). The only other boost that I know of to a stat is an inherent bonus, and the only time I've ever seen one of those was in the year 4 mod, Shedding Scales, where my DM couldn't read the module, so nobody got anything. However, this will only get the stat to 28 (30); how am I hearing of characters with charisma 32-34??? Cheers, Jolyon
Arvagor 02-10-06, 10:25 AM	How on oerth are people getting mental stats in excess of 29 (27 for cha and wis) by 15th level?Tome of clear thought? Improperly stacking a headband of intellect and a scarlet and blue ioun stone?
Sieylianna 02-10-06, 12:36 PM	How on oerth are people getting mental stats in excess of 29 (27 for cha and wis) by 15th level? Consider the following: Starting stat of 18 (+2 for int if grey elf). Boosts to mental stat at 4, 8, and 12 - gets to 21 (23). +6 stat boost item gets to 27 (29). Retirement used to be 18th, not 16th. That's an extra stat bump. I've also seen temporary ability bonuses, for example, my main PC received a +2 sacred bonus to Intelligence for the next 10 modules. There are also tomes available in the campaign. And some is doubtless poor rules knowledge. Ed