Greater Invis + Blink + Blur + Displacement?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greater Invis + Blink + Blur + Displacement?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
08-07-07, 05:30 PM How do these spells stack?

I found the FAQ entry for Mirror Image but could not find anything on what happens when an invisible, blinking, displaced, and blurred target is attacked.

Do you make 4 checks? Non-corporeal miss chance, invis miss chance, displacement, and blur miss-chance? Or make one check and take the greatest applicable (in this case 50%).

Thanks in advance.
myshkingfh
08-07-07, 05:31 PM ooo! Lemme tag on! And which of these spells allows one thereby equipped to make a sneak attack? Invis yes, Blink yes, Displacement yes but blur no?
Timlagor
08-07-07, 05:45 PM Expect Table Variation

Displacement overlaps with Blur so that's a single 50% miss chance.
Invisibility makes both of the above moot as well.

Mirror Image is rendered moot when you have complete concealment but might work with Displacement alone.
Miss chance due to concealment never exceed 50%.

Blink doesn't make you non-corporeal; it just changed your Plane so that bit would stack (for a total 60% miss chance).

I don't think being Displaced will let you deal SnAt damage either but I haven't checked.
ShinAkuma2
08-07-07, 06:19 PM If you're invisible, your opponent can not see you to be fooled by Displacement and Blur.

Blinking would still apply, though, since even if your opponent attacks the right place in the right square (makes the 50% against Invis), there's a 50% chance you won't be on the plane at the time, so that's another miss chance.
Hariman
08-07-07, 09:33 PM In my area, more than one DM has ruled: If you stack miss chance inducing spells, you end up with the best miss chance. IE: No matter how many spells you stack, you'll never get above 50%.

Also, Displacement, Blur and Mirror Image all require SEEING the target to be fooled by the spell. So Invisibility trumps all else and leaves you with a 50% miss chance.

Now, if you really want to have fun, print out the page of the FAQ that states that Mirror Images also duplicate effects like Displacement or Blink, and then use both when you can.

The enemy will have a 50% chance of not even popping the image, and only a 1 in x (x = character + number of images) of hitting the right image in the first place!
clannagh
08-07-07, 10:50 PM putting a max of 50% on mischance sounds a bit like a house rule to me ? where did they get that from ? It makes sense if all the mischances are concealment but blinking puts you somewhere else for 50% of the time.

lets not forget flicker

As far as I know mischances from concealment and incoporeality and etherealness will all stack.
clannagh
08-07-07, 10:53 PM let me rephrase that

I agree that you cant get better than total concealment so the max for all concealment mischances is arguably 50%.

Blink however is not a concealment and hence should stack.
KarmaInferno
08-08-07, 01:58 AM Now, if you really want to have fun, print out the page of the FAQ that states that Mirror Images also duplicate effects like Displacement or Blink, and then use both when you can.

The enemy will have a 50% chance of not even popping the image, and only a 1 in x (x = character + number of images) of hitting the right image in the first place!

<.<

>.>

I've done that on my Sublime Chord.

She REALLY dislikes being hit.

On top of that she has an AC of 32, and a touch AC of 20.

She REALLY REALLY dislikes being hit.

The DM usually gets frustrated and has the NPC move on to an easier target.

:D

-karma
Timlagor
08-08-07, 08:41 AM If you're invisible, your opponent can not see you to be fooled by Displacement and Blur.

Blinking would still apply, though, since even if your opponent attacks the right place in the right square (makes the 50% against Invis), there's a 50% chance you won't be on the plane at the time, so that's another miss chance.

The chance of being on the wrong Plane is only 20% (hence combining with invisibility for 60% total 50%, then 20% of the remaining 50%)
Reylance
08-08-07, 11:50 AM If an enemy is mirror-imaged and displaced, I'm closing my eyes and taking only one 50% miss chance.

I think the worst combination would be a displaced, blinking, mirror-imaged ghost, something you might find in a Furyondy module. You have a chance of missing because the enemy shifts to the other dimension. If you make that 50% chance, and the enemy is on the plane, you have a 50% chance of missing because you hit the displaced image. If you hit the right target, you then roll to see if you hit a mirror image. Then, if you hit the right one, the enemy has a 50% chance of ignoring your damage. So much fun.
Munkwunk
08-08-07, 01:16 PM Put simply: Displacement and Blur don't stack because they provide the same effect, concealment. Blink does stack because you are simply "not there" when they attack, and mirror image stacks because all of your images blink and displace as well.

Now to be a real jerk, toss Unluck on your enemy.
control freak
08-08-07, 03:31 PM if i did that they would roll 4 20s and 10 100s to hit me and 1 hit me to death, so stop takeing precautions ( i got critted in a mod at APL 2 for like 24 and barely lived while the level 1 healer got charged by 4 guys and they all missed then he took 7 AoAs to move away and they all missed) if the dice hate you your a bad player unless you use stuff that needs no roll :D

but thats an interesting idea
Zanzibax
08-08-07, 03:33 PM let me rephrase that

I agree that you cant get better than total concealment so the max for all concealment mischances is arguably 50%.

Blink however is not a concealment and hence should stack.

Blink - SRD
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
bitznarf
08-08-07, 05:29 PM Your point Zanzibax?
Timlagor
08-08-07, 08:41 PM The point (as I said earlier) is that if you take out the concealment Blink only provied 20% more miss chance.
Zanzibax
08-08-07, 09:07 PM Your point Zanzibax?

I thought it was relevant to include direct information concerning the one spell that isn't merely more concealment.
clannagh
08-08-07, 10:16 PM I thought it was relevant to include direct information concerning the one spell that isn't merely more concealment.

true

basically as i see it .. concealment should max at 50% (you cant get better than total concealment) but 20% of the blink component (due to being ethereal) will also stack. If you had some peculiar ability to become incorporeal that would stack as well.

A significant point here is that you cannot just roll all teh mischances seperately or you may accidently exceed the 50% .. you need to calculate the total mischance.

And always bearing in mind that 50% + 20% = 60% due to the odd math of mischances
Hariman
08-08-07, 10:53 PM true

basically as i see it .. concealment should max at 50% (you cant get better than total concealment) but 20% of the blink component (due to being ethereal) will also stack. If you had some peculiar ability to become incorporeal that would stack as well.

A significant point here is that you cannot just roll all teh mischances seperately or you may accidently exceed the 50% .. you need to calculate the total mischance.

And always bearing in mind that 50% + 20% = 60% due to the odd math of mischances

Why calculate the miss chance? It's far easier on the dice to lump all the miss chances together and roll for all miss chances with only one roll. A 50% miss chance is a 50% miss chance, no matter what the source.

And yes, closing your eyes in an excellent defense against Mirror Image + Displacement.

Hariman

PS: Has anyone asked Customer Service or the Sage yet?
bitznarf
08-09-07, 12:27 AM A 50% miss chance is a 50% miss chance, no matter what the source.
Thats like saying multiple buffs to Strength don't stack with each other, regardless of source or type.
clannagh
08-09-07, 12:34 AM Why calculate the miss chance? It's far easier on the dice to lump all the miss chances together and roll for all miss chances with only one roll. A 50% miss chance is a 50% miss chance, no matter what the source.

I agree.

Its just some people lump them together wrongly.

Two 20% mischances lump together as a 36% mischance but people will often call it 40%.
Samwise
08-09-07, 01:42 AM PHB, page 152, 2nd column, Concealment Miss Chance:
"Multiple concealment conditions (such as a defender in a fog and under the effects of a blur spell) do not stack."
Zanzibax
08-09-07, 02:54 AM PHB, page 152, 2nd column, Concealment Miss Chance:
"Multiple concealment conditions (such as a defender in a fog and under the effects of a blur spell) do not stack."

That's why I included blink.

SOME of blink isn't a concealment condition.
Zanzibax
08-09-07, 03:03 AM Displaced Ghosts
Harliquinn
08-09-07, 10:48 AM And yes, closing your eyes in an excellent defense against Mirror Image + Displacement.

Hariman

PS: Has anyone asked Customer Service or the Sage yet?

Except then you are considered blind for the round, which opens up a lot of other problems for your character :)

Harliquinn
Hariman
08-10-07, 07:09 PM Except then you are considered blind for the round, which opens up a lot of other problems for your character :)

Harliquinn

"As a free action, my character closes his eyes during his attack and opens them after he swings."

Although, some DMs might not allow that. And against an Arcane Trickster type, it's almost suicide if you don't connect.

Not to mention that intelligent enemies could ready to strike as you strike.

But still, against a lone mage, it's better than popping images.
ShinAkuma2
08-10-07, 11:50 PM "As a free action, my character closes his eyes during his attack and opens them after he swings."

I know I wouldn't allow it...D&D combat is split into initiative to allow people to know what's going on, but things are supposed to be happening more or less simultaneously. If your eyes are closed long enough to not see Mirror Images, etc, then they're closed long enough that you can't see other people attacking you.
Hariman
08-11-07, 12:35 AM I know I wouldn't allow it...D&D combat is split into initiative to allow people to know what's going on, but things are supposed to be happening more or less simultaneously. If your eyes are closed long enough to not see Mirror Images, etc, then they're closed long enough that you can't see other people attacking you.

Well, you could take cleave and great cleave. That would make popping an image that much more valuable.

And that's not an option for everyone.
Franco Un-American
08-11-07, 03:23 AM I know I wouldn't allow it...D&D combat is split into initiative to allow people to know what's going on, but things are supposed to be happening more or less simultaneously. If your eyes are closed long enough to not see Mirror Images, etc, then they're closed long enough that you can't see other people attacking you.

And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk.
Sieylianna
08-11-07, 09:01 AM And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk.

Although you can legally do the same thing by restricting the free actions of the player.

Ed
Hariman
08-11-07, 06:21 PM Although you can legally do the same thing by restricting the free actions of the player.

Ed

Expect Table Variation.
JJeff
08-11-07, 07:40 PM And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk.

Well, I would think that the other way - Allowing the re-opening of eyes, is also a house rule and can't be enforced either.

There's nothing on the subject and right now the Judges can rules either way. I think the best way to fully negate the mirror image + displacement + whatever is to gain a non-eyes-related sight like Blindsight (don't know if anyone has access to this spell, or items giving this ability) and then close your eyes during the whole combat.
Hariman
08-11-07, 07:58 PM Well, I would think that the other way - Allowing the re-opening of eyes, is also a house rule and can't be enforced either.

There's nothing on the subject and right now the Judges can rules either way. I think the best way to fully negate the mirror image + displacement + whatever is to gain a non-eyes-related sight like Blindsight (don't know if anyone has access to this spell, or items giving this ability) and then close your eyes during the whole combat.

The feat Blind Fight. You keep your Dex against invisible opponents.
ShinAkuma2
08-14-07, 12:39 AM And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk.

Please show me your quote for what the Core rule on the subject is, then.

Or, better yet, allow the judge at the table to perform his role, and fill in the rules where necessary.

Do you believe that PCs don't actually need to sleep, since there's no listed penalty for staying up all night for weeks on end? Sometimes, the DM has to make something up. This is one of those times, until we get an answer from "higher up".
Jay_Ibero_911
08-14-07, 01:02 AM Please show me your quote for what the Core rule on the subject is, then.

Or, better yet, allow the judge at the table to perform his role, and fill in the rules where necessary.

Do you believe that PCs don't actually need to sleep, since there's no listed penalty for staying up all night for weeks on end? Sometimes, the DM has to make something up. This is one of those times, until we get an answer from "higher up".

I dunno man...that's a pretty big stretch with the opening and closing eyes thing. Yes in a sense everything is kind of happening at once, but there are a whole lot of areas that break down if you try to think simultaneously about them, like basic movement. Going sequentially, player 1 charges and enemy, and player 2 moves into what was player 1's charge lane. Going simultaneously, player 1 and player 2 simply colide. There are many mechanics that depend on the idea of some things only being in effect on your turn. Like skirmish damage for instance. And all free actions, which take no effort, but still can only be performed on your own turn typically, which opening and closing your eyes should certainly fall under.
Timlagor
08-14-07, 07:08 AM This seems to be the moment for me to put in that it would all be much easier if we used the proper rules for Mirror Image instead of the silly houserule that they are all in the same square.
GeorgeFHarris
08-14-07, 02:42 PM Do you believe that PCs don't actually need to sleep, since there's no listed penalty for staying up all night for weeks on end? Sometimes, the DM has to make something up. This is one of those times, until we get an answer from "higher up".

Well, there is the rule about wearing greater than light armor while trying to sleep makes you fatigued. If you are fatigued, and get fatigued, again, then you are exhausted.

So there is good basis for a DM to treat a non-sleeping PC/NPC as fatigued.

GH
JJeff
08-14-07, 07:20 PM This seems to be the moment for me to put in that it would all be much easier if we used the proper rules for Mirror Image instead of the silly houserule that they are all in the same square.

Err.. it isn't a houserule. The FAQ states:

Is there a way to decide which squares the figments
from a mirror image spell occupy? Or do the images
distribute themselves randomly? If it�s the latter, how does
the DM decide where they go?
Although the spell description says the images from a
mirror image spell always stay within 5 feet of either the user
or another image, it�s easiest to assume that all the images
occupy the same space the spell user occupies. Any attack that
can reach the user�s space can affect an image.

You CAN play it otherwise, just stating it isn't really a houserule.
Jay_Ibero_911
08-14-07, 07:41 PM Err.. it isn't a houserule. The FAQ states:

You CAN play it otherwise, just stating it isn't really a houserule.

Well previously the LGCS specifically stated that in LG all images occupy the casters space. That seems to have been removed from the latest version...interesting.
Timlagor
08-14-07, 09:15 PM Wahey!

The FAQ says it's easiest. It's still a houserule ..though not any more apparently -thanks for noticing that Jay!
Jay_Ibero_911
08-14-07, 09:22 PM Wahey!

The FAQ says it's easiest. It's still a houserule ..though not any more apparently -thanks for noticing that Jay!

Personally though, I think I'll still play and run it with them all being in the same square. I can't tink of any benefit to having them be in separate squares, and it does make the spell unnecessarily more complicated.
Timlagor
08-15-07, 06:20 AM There is HUGE benefit to having them in different squares.

It takes the whole random chance out of it on the wizard end. You can place your images so that they are more likely to get targetted than you are and potentially incite things to attack them without putting yourself at risk (or make it look like you're doing that while getting in a better position for next turn).
It also removes the sillyness of people negating it by closing their eyes because they don't get to know which square you are in for free.

I do agree that it can make things more complicated to run but it's not really hard to understand the mechanics and it is much cooler.
Hariman
08-15-07, 09:45 AM There is HUGE benefit to having them in different squares.

It takes the whole random chance out of it on the wizard end. You can place your images so that they are more likely to get targetted than you are and potentially incite things to attack them without putting yourself at risk (or make it look like you're doing that while getting in a better position for next turn).
It also removes the sillyness of people negating it by closing their eyes because they don't get to know which square you are in for free.

I do agree that it can make things more complicated to run but it's not really hard to understand the mechanics and it is much cooler.

Not to mention that a rogue/wizard could potentially flank with his own image. AND you could position a few images further away from an enemy so that a Great Cleave type won't auto kill the images if he misses you.

Of course, it is more dangerous because once one enemy figures out where you are, all enemies know.

Were I DM, I'd run it with the images in different squares.
JJeff
08-15-07, 08:58 PM I do agree that it can make things more complicated to run but it's not really hard to understand the mechanics and it is much cooler.

Cooler? To me, it just reminds me of Naruto...

The problem is that the images, if they don't share your square, can be used for other purposes. The images can be used to lure enemies around corners like a Slient/Minor Image etc. Which I think shouldn't be the case, as a spell shouldn't so easily duplicate another (from Silent Image to even Programmed image, depending on how the image is used)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 08-07-07, 05:30 PM	How do these spells stack? I found the FAQ entry for Mirror Image but could not find anything on what happens when an invisible, blinking, displaced, and blurred target is attacked. Do you make 4 checks? Non-corporeal miss chance, invis miss chance, displacement, and blur miss-chance? Or make one check and take the greatest applicable (in this case 50%). Thanks in advance.
myshkingfh 08-07-07, 05:31 PM	ooo! Lemme tag on! And which of these spells allows one thereby equipped to make a sneak attack? Invis yes, Blink yes, Displacement yes but blur no?
Timlagor 08-07-07, 05:45 PM	Expect Table Variation Displacement overlaps with Blur so that's a single 50% miss chance. Invisibility makes both of the above moot as well. Mirror Image is rendered moot when you have complete concealment but might work with Displacement alone. Miss chance due to concealment never exceed 50%. Blink doesn't make you non-corporeal; it just changed your Plane so that bit would stack (for a total 60% miss chance). I don't think being Displaced will let you deal SnAt damage either but I haven't checked.
ShinAkuma2 08-07-07, 06:19 PM	If you're invisible, your opponent can not see you to be fooled by Displacement and Blur. Blinking would still apply, though, since even if your opponent attacks the right place in the right square (makes the 50% against Invis), there's a 50% chance you won't be on the plane at the time, so that's another miss chance.
Hariman 08-07-07, 09:33 PM	In my area, more than one DM has ruled: If you stack miss chance inducing spells, you end up with the best miss chance. IE: No matter how many spells you stack, you'll never get above 50%. Also, Displacement, Blur and Mirror Image all require SEEING the target to be fooled by the spell. So Invisibility trumps all else and leaves you with a 50% miss chance. Now, if you really want to have fun, print out the page of the FAQ that states that Mirror Images also duplicate effects like Displacement or Blink, and then use both when you can. The enemy will have a 50% chance of not even popping the image, and only a 1 in x (x = character + number of images) of hitting the right image in the first place!
clannagh 08-07-07, 10:50 PM	putting a max of 50% on mischance sounds a bit like a house rule to me ? where did they get that from ? It makes sense if all the mischances are concealment but blinking puts you somewhere else for 50% of the time. lets not forget flicker As far as I know mischances from concealment and incoporeality and etherealness will all stack.
clannagh 08-07-07, 10:53 PM	let me rephrase that I agree that you cant get better than total concealment so the max for all concealment mischances is arguably 50%. Blink however is not a concealment and hence should stack.
KarmaInferno 08-08-07, 01:58 AM	Now, if you really want to have fun, print out the page of the FAQ that states that Mirror Images also duplicate effects like Displacement or Blink, and then use both when you can. The enemy will have a 50% chance of not even popping the image, and only a 1 in x (x = character + number of images) of hitting the right image in the first place! <.< >.> I've done that on my Sublime Chord. She REALLY dislikes being hit. On top of that she has an AC of 32, and a touch AC of 20. She REALLY REALLY dislikes being hit. The DM usually gets frustrated and has the NPC move on to an easier target. :D -karma
Timlagor 08-08-07, 08:41 AM	If you're invisible, your opponent can not see you to be fooled by Displacement and Blur. Blinking would still apply, though, since even if your opponent attacks the right place in the right square (makes the 50% against Invis), there's a 50% chance you won't be on the plane at the time, so that's another miss chance. The chance of being on the wrong Plane is only 20% (hence combining with invisibility for 60% total 50%, then 20% of the remaining 50%)
Reylance 08-08-07, 11:50 AM	If an enemy is mirror-imaged and displaced, I'm closing my eyes and taking only one 50% miss chance. I think the worst combination would be a displaced, blinking, mirror-imaged ghost, something you might find in a Furyondy module. You have a chance of missing because the enemy shifts to the other dimension. If you make that 50% chance, and the enemy is on the plane, you have a 50% chance of missing because you hit the displaced image. If you hit the right target, you then roll to see if you hit a mirror image. Then, if you hit the right one, the enemy has a 50% chance of ignoring your damage. So much fun.
Munkwunk 08-08-07, 01:16 PM	Put simply: Displacement and Blur don't stack because they provide the same effect, concealment. Blink does stack because you are simply "not there" when they attack, and mirror image stacks because all of your images blink and displace as well. Now to be a real jerk, toss Unluck on your enemy.
control freak 08-08-07, 03:31 PM	if i did that they would roll 4 20s and 10 100s to hit me and 1 hit me to death, so stop takeing precautions ( i got critted in a mod at APL 2 for like 24 and barely lived while the level 1 healer got charged by 4 guys and they all missed then he took 7 AoAs to move away and they all missed) if the dice hate you your a bad player unless you use stuff that needs no roll :D but thats an interesting idea
Zanzibax 08-08-07, 03:33 PM	let me rephrase that I agree that you cant get better than total concealment so the max for all concealment mischances is arguably 50%. Blink however is not a concealment and hence should stack. Blink - SRD If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
bitznarf 08-08-07, 05:29 PM	Your point Zanzibax?
Timlagor 08-08-07, 08:41 PM	The point (as I said earlier) is that if you take out the concealment Blink only provied 20% more miss chance.
Zanzibax 08-08-07, 09:07 PM	Your point Zanzibax? I thought it was relevant to include direct information concerning the one spell that isn't merely more concealment.
clannagh 08-08-07, 10:16 PM	I thought it was relevant to include direct information concerning the one spell that isn't merely more concealment. true basically as i see it .. concealment should max at 50% (you cant get better than total concealment) but 20% of the blink component (due to being ethereal) will also stack. If you had some peculiar ability to become incorporeal that would stack as well. A significant point here is that you cannot just roll all teh mischances seperately or you may accidently exceed the 50% .. you need to calculate the total mischance. And always bearing in mind that 50% + 20% = 60% due to the odd math of mischances
Hariman 08-08-07, 10:53 PM	true basically as i see it .. concealment should max at 50% (you cant get better than total concealment) but 20% of the blink component (due to being ethereal) will also stack. If you had some peculiar ability to become incorporeal that would stack as well. A significant point here is that you cannot just roll all teh mischances seperately or you may accidently exceed the 50% .. you need to calculate the total mischance. And always bearing in mind that 50% + 20% = 60% due to the odd math of mischances Why calculate the miss chance? It's far easier on the dice to lump all the miss chances together and roll for all miss chances with only one roll. A 50% miss chance is a 50% miss chance, no matter what the source. And yes, closing your eyes in an excellent defense against Mirror Image + Displacement. Hariman PS: Has anyone asked Customer Service or the Sage yet?
bitznarf 08-09-07, 12:27 AM	A 50% miss chance is a 50% miss chance, no matter what the source. Thats like saying multiple buffs to Strength don't stack with each other, regardless of source or type.
clannagh 08-09-07, 12:34 AM	Why calculate the miss chance? It's far easier on the dice to lump all the miss chances together and roll for all miss chances with only one roll. A 50% miss chance is a 50% miss chance, no matter what the source. I agree. Its just some people lump them together wrongly. Two 20% mischances lump together as a 36% mischance but people will often call it 40%.
Samwise 08-09-07, 01:42 AM	PHB, page 152, 2nd column, Concealment Miss Chance: "Multiple concealment conditions (such as a defender in a fog and under the effects of a blur spell) do not stack."
Zanzibax 08-09-07, 02:54 AM	PHB, page 152, 2nd column, Concealment Miss Chance: "Multiple concealment conditions (such as a defender in a fog and under the effects of a blur spell) do not stack." That's why I included blink. SOME of blink isn't a concealment condition.
Zanzibax 08-09-07, 03:03 AM	Displaced Ghosts
Harliquinn 08-09-07, 10:48 AM	And yes, closing your eyes in an excellent defense against Mirror Image + Displacement. Hariman PS: Has anyone asked Customer Service or the Sage yet? Except then you are considered blind for the round, which opens up a lot of other problems for your character :) Harliquinn
Hariman 08-10-07, 07:09 PM	Except then you are considered blind for the round, which opens up a lot of other problems for your character :) Harliquinn "As a free action, my character closes his eyes during his attack and opens them after he swings." Although, some DMs might not allow that. And against an Arcane Trickster type, it's almost suicide if you don't connect. Not to mention that intelligent enemies could ready to strike as you strike. But still, against a lone mage, it's better than popping images.
ShinAkuma2 08-10-07, 11:50 PM	"As a free action, my character closes his eyes during his attack and opens them after he swings." I know I wouldn't allow it...D&D combat is split into initiative to allow people to know what's going on, but things are supposed to be happening more or less simultaneously. If your eyes are closed long enough to not see Mirror Images, etc, then they're closed long enough that you can't see other people attacking you.
Hariman 08-11-07, 12:35 AM	I know I wouldn't allow it...D&D combat is split into initiative to allow people to know what's going on, but things are supposed to be happening more or less simultaneously. If your eyes are closed long enough to not see Mirror Images, etc, then they're closed long enough that you can't see other people attacking you. Well, you could take cleave and great cleave. That would make popping an image that much more valuable. And that's not an option for everyone.
Franco Un-American 08-11-07, 03:23 AM	I know I wouldn't allow it...D&D combat is split into initiative to allow people to know what's going on, but things are supposed to be happening more or less simultaneously. If your eyes are closed long enough to not see Mirror Images, etc, then they're closed long enough that you can't see other people attacking you. And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk.
Sieylianna 08-11-07, 09:01 AM	And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk. Although you can legally do the same thing by restricting the free actions of the player. Ed
Hariman 08-11-07, 06:21 PM	Although you can legally do the same thing by restricting the free actions of the player. Ed Expect Table Variation.
JJeff 08-11-07, 07:40 PM	And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk. Well, I would think that the other way - Allowing the re-opening of eyes, is also a house rule and can't be enforced either. There's nothing on the subject and right now the Judges can rules either way. I think the best way to fully negate the mirror image + displacement + whatever is to gain a non-eyes-related sight like Blindsight (don't know if anyone has access to this spell, or items giving this ability) and then close your eyes during the whole combat.
Hariman 08-11-07, 07:58 PM	Well, I would think that the other way - Allowing the re-opening of eyes, is also a house rule and can't be enforced either. There's nothing on the subject and right now the Judges can rules either way. I think the best way to fully negate the mirror image + displacement + whatever is to gain a non-eyes-related sight like Blindsight (don't know if anyone has access to this spell, or items giving this ability) and then close your eyes during the whole combat. The feat Blind Fight. You keep your Dex against invisible opponents.
ShinAkuma2 08-14-07, 12:39 AM	And that's a houserule, which you can't enforce in Living Greyhawk. Please show me your quote for what the Core rule on the subject is, then. Or, better yet, allow the judge at the table to perform his role, and fill in the rules where necessary. Do you believe that PCs don't actually need to sleep, since there's no listed penalty for staying up all night for weeks on end? Sometimes, the DM has to make something up. This is one of those times, until we get an answer from "higher up".
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 01:02 AM	Please show me your quote for what the Core rule on the subject is, then. Or, better yet, allow the judge at the table to perform his role, and fill in the rules where necessary. Do you believe that PCs don't actually need to sleep, since there's no listed penalty for staying up all night for weeks on end? Sometimes, the DM has to make something up. This is one of those times, until we get an answer from "higher up". I dunno man...that's a pretty big stretch with the opening and closing eyes thing. Yes in a sense everything is kind of happening at once, but there are a whole lot of areas that break down if you try to think simultaneously about them, like basic movement. Going sequentially, player 1 charges and enemy, and player 2 moves into what was player 1's charge lane. Going simultaneously, player 1 and player 2 simply colide. There are many mechanics that depend on the idea of some things only being in effect on your turn. Like skirmish damage for instance. And all free actions, which take no effort, but still can only be performed on your own turn typically, which opening and closing your eyes should certainly fall under.
Timlagor 08-14-07, 07:08 AM	This seems to be the moment for me to put in that it would all be much easier if we used the proper rules for Mirror Image instead of the silly houserule that they are all in the same square.
GeorgeFHarris 08-14-07, 02:42 PM	Do you believe that PCs don't actually need to sleep, since there's no listed penalty for staying up all night for weeks on end? Sometimes, the DM has to make something up. This is one of those times, until we get an answer from "higher up". Well, there is the rule about wearing greater than light armor while trying to sleep makes you fatigued. If you are fatigued, and get fatigued, again, then you are exhausted. So there is good basis for a DM to treat a non-sleeping PC/NPC as fatigued. GH
JJeff 08-14-07, 07:20 PM	This seems to be the moment for me to put in that it would all be much easier if we used the proper rules for Mirror Image instead of the silly houserule that they are all in the same square. Err.. it isn't a houserule. The FAQ states: Is there a way to decide which squares the figments from a mirror image spell occupy? Or do the images distribute themselves randomly? If it�s the latter, how does the DM decide where they go? Although the spell description says the images from a mirror image spell always stay within 5 feet of either the user or another image, it�s easiest to assume that all the images occupy the same space the spell user occupies. Any attack that can reach the user�s space can affect an image. You CAN play it otherwise, just stating it isn't really a houserule.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 07:41 PM	Err.. it isn't a houserule. The FAQ states: You CAN play it otherwise, just stating it isn't really a houserule. Well previously the LGCS specifically stated that in LG all images occupy the casters space. That seems to have been removed from the latest version...interesting.
Timlagor 08-14-07, 09:15 PM	Wahey! The FAQ says it's easiest. It's still a houserule ..though not any more apparently -thanks for noticing that Jay!
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 09:22 PM	Wahey! The FAQ says it's easiest. It's still a houserule ..though not any more apparently -thanks for noticing that Jay! Personally though, I think I'll still play and run it with them all being in the same square. I can't tink of any benefit to having them be in separate squares, and it does make the spell unnecessarily more complicated.
Timlagor 08-15-07, 06:20 AM	There is HUGE benefit to having them in different squares. It takes the whole random chance out of it on the wizard end. You can place your images so that they are more likely to get targetted than you are and potentially incite things to attack them without putting yourself at risk (or make it look like you're doing that while getting in a better position for next turn). It also removes the sillyness of people negating it by closing their eyes because they don't get to know which square you are in for free. I do agree that it can make things more complicated to run but it's not really hard to understand the mechanics and it is much cooler.
Hariman 08-15-07, 09:45 AM	There is HUGE benefit to having them in different squares. It takes the whole random chance out of it on the wizard end. You can place your images so that they are more likely to get targetted than you are and potentially incite things to attack them without putting yourself at risk (or make it look like you're doing that while getting in a better position for next turn). It also removes the sillyness of people negating it by closing their eyes because they don't get to know which square you are in for free. I do agree that it can make things more complicated to run but it's not really hard to understand the mechanics and it is much cooler. Not to mention that a rogue/wizard could potentially flank with his own image. AND you could position a few images further away from an enemy so that a Great Cleave type won't auto kill the images if he misses you. Of course, it is more dangerous because once one enemy figures out where you are, all enemies know. Were I DM, I'd run it with the images in different squares.
JJeff 08-15-07, 08:58 PM	I do agree that it can make things more complicated to run but it's not really hard to understand the mechanics and it is much cooler. Cooler? To me, it just reminds me of Naruto... The problem is that the images, if they don't share your square, can be used for other purposes. The images can be used to lure enemies around corners like a Slient/Minor Image etc. Which I think shouldn't be the case, as a spell shouldn't so easily duplicate another (from Silent Image to even Programmed image, depending on how the image is used)