Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 01-15-07, 11:31 PM	Ok, I was playing a mod the other night, and after a combat my druid was healing the party with a bunch of lesser vigors...and the DM suggested I take the Healthful Rest spell to double their effectiveness. I was somewhat surprised by this interpretation. I had assumed Healthful Rest would merely double the ammount of HP you recover with a nights sleep. But the spell only specifies it "doubles the subject's natural healing rate". So I guess it comes down to a question of "Is fast healing, regardless of the source, considered natural healing?". I certainly believe the intent to have been to just effect sleep healing, as implied by the name, but I am curious if, by RAW, it works? Heal 30 HP with lesser vigor, 2hp per round, if under the effect of healthful rest?
ShinAkuma2 01-15-07, 11:33 PM	I wouldn't think Fast Healing granted by a spell would count as natural healing.
clannagh 01-16-07, 02:21 AM	ummh .. since when did a spell count as "natural " ?
Britt 01-16-07, 02:40 AM	Healthful Rest wouldn't apply to that. There's nothing natural about magically giving someone fast healing. If it was natural fast healing, there might be an argument, but even that would be shaky.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-16-07, 02:51 AM	ummh .. since when did a spell count as "natural " ? Since forever! Anything a druid does is 'natural'. Haven't you ever gone to a national park and watched the majestic beauty of huge elementals of flame suddenly appear, beat the pulp out of some hapless demon, and wink out of existence barely a minute later? On a more serious note, I don't think it should work. The MM does say that fast healing is exactly like natural healing, but I agree with ShinAkuma2, I'd view that fast healing not inherent in the creature doesn't count as natural. I'd say it would work with anything that has fast healing naturally.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 03:19 AM	It seems the big question then is: By RAW, does the source of the fast healing matter with respect to whether or not it is considered natural healing? I suppose, if the Vigor spells functioned a little differently, then they might be subject to healthful rest, but as they are currently written, it does appear that the magic is sustaining the healing...now if instead of conjuration(Healing), they were transmutation, and were an instantaneous effect granting the creature fast healing for however long, then it would be more like you are being changed to heal faster naturally rather than magically enhanced to recover more quickly. I think that's reasoning I can live with...at least enough to keep me from poking and proding the rules any farther...
Britt 01-16-07, 03:30 AM	I would probably approach it by determining if the fast healing was EX, SP, or SU. If it was EX, I would probably consider it natural. If the fast healing continues in an antimagic field, it is likely natural.
jstorrie 01-16-07, 05:12 PM	Natural healing is a specific rules item, referring only to healing from resting. Even creatures with built-in fast healing wouldn't get it doubled by Healthful Rest.
JohnduBois 01-17-07, 06:51 PM	Natural healing is a specific rules item, referring only to healing from resting. Even creatures with built-in fast healing wouldn't get it doubled by Healthful Rest. I don't have my books on me, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Fast Healing glossary entry (MM) the phrase "exactly like natural healing" or a reasonable facsimile shows up somewhere...
Crazy Boro 01-17-07, 11:22 PM	I don't have my books on me, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Fast Healing glossary entry (MM) the phrase "exactly like natural healing" or a reasonable facsimile shows up somewhere... Well, I didn't have a book handy, but the SRD does have the following on fast healing: "Fast Healing (Ex): A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature’s entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Also see Fast Healing under Special Abilities." and from checking the special abilities area: "FAST HEALING A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing. At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description). Unlike regeneration, fast healing does not allow a creature to regrow or reattach lost body parts. A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs." Sorry for the length of it, but I wanted to make sure all of the info was all here for the ability. I'm not sure if there is more in the actual books, but thats what I was able to find for the moment.
Mattastrophic 01-18-07, 02:48 PM	When going off the RAW, yes, it does work. -Matt
jstorrie 01-18-07, 02:54 PM	Well, that is a strong argument in favour of doubling-up. Expect table variation?
Britt 01-18-07, 02:56 PM	Except Fast Healing granted by a spell is nat 'Fast Healing (Ex)'. Ex abilities function in an antimagic field, while fast healing from vigor spells would not. Similarly, you could say that the RAW show that it would not work because the statement "fast healing is like natural healing" clearly shows that it is NOT natural healing; it works the same, but is not the same in identity. If Healthful Rest only works on natural healing, then by this reasoning, it wouldn't work on fast healing.
trollbill 01-18-07, 03:20 PM	Except Fast Healing granted by a spell is nat 'Fast Healing (Ex)'. Ex abilities function in an antimagic field, while fast healing from vigor spells would not. Similarly, you could say that the RAW show that it would not work because the statement "fast healing is like natural healing" clearly shows that it is NOT natural healing; it works the same, but is not the same in identity. If Healthful Rest only works on natural healing, then by this reasoning, it wouldn't work on fast healing. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing. How do you interpret the meaning of that sentence then? Whenever I see this in a rulebook, my interpretation is that all rules that apply to latter ability apply to the formor unless otherwise specified. Since the rules don't otherwise specify an exception to this, then they would work the same.
Britt 01-18-07, 03:43 PM	"fast healing is like natural healing" implicitly means that fast healing is not the same as natural healing. It is a different entity. To use an analogy, one of my profs once said that anytime you hear the tag "per se", that just means that it isn't the thing it's modifying. A contract per se means that it's NOT a contract. If something is like another thing, they are two different things. Saying that something is like natural healing means that it functions in the same way. That doesn't mean that everything that modifies natural healing also modifies the thing that functions like it. I can't think of a good example off the top of my head, but I'll keep trying and post something when I get a good example.
CrystalBlue 01-18-07, 03:52 PM	Mmm...me thinks Britt is an English major...or something like that.
Britt 01-18-07, 04:00 PM	Law student with my undergrad in Philosophy (and 5 different logic classes :)). But yes, I am a grammar superhero, as well.
jstorrie 01-18-07, 04:08 PM	The good example, I think, is the Divine Oracle's 'just like Evasion' ability that still does not qualify a character for an Evasion-requiring prestige class.
trollbill 01-18-07, 04:41 PM	"fast healing is like natural healing" implicitly means that fast healing is not the same as natural healing. It is a different entity. To use an analogy, one of my profs once said that anytime you hear the tag "per se", that just means that it isn't the thing it's modifying. A contract per se means that it's NOT a contract. If something is like another thing, they are two different things. Saying that something is like natural healing means that it functions in the same way. That doesn't mean that everything that modifies natural healing also modifies the thing that functions like it. I can't think of a good example off the top of my head, but I'll keep trying and post something when I get a good example. Okay, I'm going to get sarcastic with a circle member here... Are you sure you're an English major instead of a Law major? An English major would have actually defined the entire text I quoted rather than use the lawyer trick of only listing the part that supports his argument because without the qualifying part of the statement, it can be easily taken out of context. Sarcasm off. "Except for what is noted here," is a qualifier to "fast healing is like natural healing." And it means that only in those things listed is fast healing not like natural healing. The good example, I think, is the Divine Oracle's 'just like Evasion' ability that still does not qualify a character for an Evasion-requiring prestige class. No, its not a good example because the text never says Prescient Sense is like Evasion. In fact, the text actually states it is not like Evasion.
Britt 01-18-07, 04:53 PM	Okay, I'm going to get sarcastic with a circle member here... Are you sure you're an English major instead of a Law major? An English major would have actually defined the entire text I quoted rather than use the lawyer trick of only listing the part that supports his argument because without the qualifying part of the statement, it can be easily taken out of context. Sarcasm off. "Except for what is noted here," is a qualifier to "fast healing is like natural healing." And it means that only in those things listed is fast healing not like natural healing. I never said I was an English major. I specifically said I was a law student and got my undergrad in Philosophy. I'm sorry if you didn't like the snipping, but I thought my lengthy description of what "like" implies about identity made the first part of that statement irrelevant. We aren't talking about how fast healing acts; we're talking about how something that modifies natural healing acts. You want to say that since fast healing acts like natural healing, anything that affects natural healing affects fast healing, but that doesn't follow. Saying "A is like B" does not equate to "anything that modifies B also modifies A." Those are two entirely different statements. If Healthful Rest only applies to natural healing and not fast healing, that does not make fast healing any more unlike natural healing than it was before; it is merely a change in what the spell impacts. We can tell from the phrasing that fast healing is different from natural healing, so there is nothing inconsistent with the two being similar and distinguishing between the two. Put another way, healthful rest is not a property of natural healing. If it were, then fast healing would likely work with it.
Britt 01-18-07, 05:00 PM	Here, I finally thought of a good example. Say you have two cars, A and B. Except for what is noted here, car A is just like car B: - Car A has a spoiler. - Car B has alloy wheels. Now, you take these cars and put a fuel additive into the tank of car A that will make it get 1 more mpg than car B for one tank only. Does car B suddenly gain that same additive? Of course not. Is car A any different than car B? Since this isn't a change to car A, merely to the fuel that it uses, no. Car A is exactly how it was before. Here's another, similar example. Except for what is noted here, car A is just like car B: - Car B has an electric motor. So if we were then to say "If you add this fuel additive to car A, it will get 1 more mpg for that tank of gas." Does this statement apply to car B as well? No, because it's an electric car; you can't apply that fuel additive to car B.
trollbill 01-18-07, 05:08 PM	I never said I was an English major. I specifically said I was a law student and got my undergrad in Philosophy. Geez, my bad. You'd think if I was going to go to all the trouble of being sarcastic with a Circle member I would at least get my facts straight. :tantrum: I'm sorry if you didn't like the snipping, but I thought my lengthy description of what "like" implies about identity made the first part of that statement irrelevant. We aren't talking about how fast healing acts; we're talking about how something that modifies natural healing acts. You want to say that since fast healing acts like natural healing, anything that affects natural healing affects fast healing, but that doesn't follow. Saying "A is like B" does not equate to "anything that modifies B also modifies A." Those are two entirely different statements. If Healthful Rest only applies to natural healing and not fast healing, that does not make fast healing any more unlike natural healing than it was before; it is merely a change in what the spell impacts. We can tell from the phrasing that fast healing is different from natural healing, so there is nothing inconsistent with the two being similar and distinguishing between the two. Put another way, healthful rest is not a property of natural healing. If it were, then fast healing would likely work with it. Hmmm...I think I see what you are saying. I'm not sure I agree that's what it means. And I am sure its not as clear as you make it sound. So I would still expect some table variance. Unless, of course, this is an official Circle ruling. ;)
Britt 01-18-07, 05:26 PM	Oh no, this is definitely not a Circle ruling. I don't think it's as clear as the argument I am putting forward, either. I'm just putting forward the argument to show that the opposite isn't very clear. Definitely ETV.