Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithrus 04-06-07, 02:08 AM	Could we get an official ruling on using Heighten Spell to meet PrC prereqs. While I would love to use that trick to get my beguiler into the SCM PrC easier, I seriously think this is far afield from the intent of the rules. Is there any specific reason the Circle hasn't addressed this issue?
bitznarf 04-06-07, 02:15 AM	I really don't see the problem to be honest, so long as it isn't combined with things like Practical Metamagic or Metamagic School Focus. You end up spending feats to be able to use a different spell. One more spell known isn't going to break anything. As for why there will be no official 'LG' ruling on this, its a 'Core rules issue'. Well, its core rules anyway, like I said, I don't see the issue. I'm aware there may be table variation, but there is table variation on pretty much everything to some extent or another.
Samwise 04-06-07, 03:01 AM	I'm not sure how this works. Are you suggesting that someone would say they heighten spell X, and it now counts as a spell of type Y of level Z for a prestige class? That sounds like it would be begging to be wrecked by a DM who simply said you didn't meet the prestige class requirement properly and lost all the benefits. Why ask for table variation that devastating?
awroe 04-06-07, 03:06 AM	I'm not sure how this works. Are you suggesting that someone would say they heighten spell X, and it now counts as a spell of type Y of level Z for a prestige class? It's used to meet requirements like '3 illusion spells of 4th level or higher' by having 3 illusion spells of lower than 4th level and using the heighten feat to claim they qualify as they can now be cast at 4th. I'm not against having it work - after all if a spell can be 3rd level for a Wizard and 2nd for a Bard, why not 4th for PRC requirements. Expect table variation...
Samwise 04-06-07, 03:12 AM	Right. Except as I noted, in this case "table variation" equates to not being able to use your prestige class abilities at all. I can't really see why someone would want to bother with that. As for whether it works, comparing between different lists doesn't change what level the spell is on your spell list, and what level it is in your spellbook. You wouldn't get to do this at any time I run.
King Kashue 04-06-07, 03:40 AM	Well, it's not specifically on this topic, the FAQ does say this (in regard to counterspelling): A heightened, maximized fireball still counts only as a 3rd-level spell (both for the caster and the counterspelling character). (FAQ 3/23/07, p. 36.) As for the prereqs, I think (and I may be wrong) you'd find the majority of Judges will say the spell is the level it is on your class spell list. That you can cast it at a higher level doesn't make the spell itself a higher level. To me, this seems sound in terms of the letter of the rules (i.e., the spell lists say what they say), but also in the spirit (i.e., I don't think magic missle heightened to 5th is what they had in mind as a pre-req for Argent Savant).
bitznarf 04-06-07, 12:39 PM	Well, it's not specifically on this topic, the FAQ does say this (in regard to counterspelling): A heightened, maximized fireball still counts only as a 3rd-level spell (both for the caster and the counterspelling character). (FAQ 3/23/07, p. 36.) Whoa, the FAQ says that? Its always good when the FAQ contradicts itself: "Even though a metamagic feat changes the level of the slot occupied by the spell, it doesn’t actually change the spell’s level (except for the Heighten Spell feat, or any other effect that specifically changes the spell’s actual level). The reserve feats care about the spell’s actual level, not the spell slot it occupies." (FAQ 03/23/07, p. 28.) I can only speculate that because of the way counterspelling works, it ignores Heighten Spell as the exception not the rule. As for the prereqs, I think (and I may be wrong) you'd find the majority of Judges will say the spell is the level it is on your class spell list. That you can cast it at a higher level doesn't make the spell itself a higher level. Even though Heighten Spell actually changes the level of the spell, for all effects, weird FAQ contradictions not withstanding? To me, this seems sound in terms of the letter of the rules (i.e., the spell lists say what they say), but also in the spirit (i.e., I don't think magic missle heightened to 5th is what they had in mind as a pre-req for Argent Savant). Yes, the spell lists say what they say, but so does Heighten Spell. Where exactly is the cheese on this? It's not like you actually have to take shadow conjuration under your premise, shadow well (SpC) qualifies as well. And is actually quite a good spell in my opinion.
copper_wyrmling 04-06-07, 01:17 PM	Yes, the spell lists say what they say, but so does Heighten Spell. Where exactly is the cheese on this? It's not like you actually have to take shadow conjuration under your premise, shadow well (SpC) qualifies as well. And is actually quite a good spell in my opinion. Shadow Well isn't Open, though, you'd need to get access. After thinking about this for a while, I'm leaning towards ruling that the spell, itself, is the level it says on the class spell list. The (spell+heighten) combination acts as a spell of the higher level whenever computing effects that depend on the spell level (e.g. save DCs, penetrating a globe of invulnerability, etc), but you still can't cast a spell of that level, you can cast a spell+metamagic combination of that level. The two things are not the same - something like a mage of the arcane order's spellpool allows you to cast a spell of a specified level, but not a spell+metamagic combination of that equivalent level, at least on my tables (I wouldn't let someone use the spellpool to call in a Heightened Tasha's Hideous Laughter, for example - you get the spell, not any metamagic effects). To answer the original question, I'm betting it's because (a) it's a Core rules issue and the Circle has to seek permission to make rulings on those (afaik), and (b) I doubt it's a question that comes up very often. (I mean, we still don't have a ruling on "what happens to prestige classes if you lose prereqs" - although when flipping through the Knowledge Base replies, I noticed that question is answered there.)
bitznarf 04-06-07, 01:32 PM	Shadow Well isn't Open, though, you'd need to get access. No its not, but if I get access, (or ask for a special mission to get access) it would be my spell of choice at this point. After thinking about this for a while, I'm leaning towards ruling that the spell, itself, is the level it says on the class spell list. The (spell+heighten) combination acts as a spell of the higher level whenever computing effects that depend on the spell level (e.g. save DCs, penetrating a globe of invulnerability, etc), but you still can't cast a spell of that level, you can cast a spell+metamagic combination of that level. The two things are not the same - something like a mage of the arcane order's spellpool allows you to cast a spell of a specified level, but not a spell+metamagic combination of that equivalent level, at least on my tables (I wouldn't let someone use the spellpool to call in a Heightened Tasha's Hideous Laughter, for example - you get the spell, not any metamagic effects). This argument I understand the logic behind, and given the precedent of MotAO, I don't think it can be proved wrong. However, I also don't think that this argument is strong enough to prove my viewpoint wrong. Both rely on deciding what the phrase 'able to cast X level spell(s) of Y variety'. The way I look at it, "yes I can, here's how". The way you seem to be looking at it is "is it on your spell list at that level? then you qualify". I don't like that ruling but it does hold its water, when laid out in the manner you just did. To answer the original question, I'm betting it's because (a) it's a Core rules issue and the Circle has to seek permission to make rulings on those (afaik), and (b) I doubt it's a question that comes up very often. (I mean, we still don't have a ruling on "what happens to prestige classes if you lose prereqs" - although when flipping through the Knowledge Base replies, I noticed that question is answered there.) Do you have a link to this ruling about losing PrC prereqs? I would like to take a look.
JamesMaissen 04-06-07, 01:45 PM	That sounds like it would be begging to be wrecked by a DM who simply said you didn't meet the prestige class requirement properly and lost all the benefits. Why ask for table variation that devastating? Wouldn't it simply make the character illegal? It's not as if you ever HAD the requirements to take it would be the point. I understand that the circle doesn't want to (and it may cases can't) rule on Core rules concerns, but this degree of table variation is simply too much. Forget for a second players trying to 'cheese the system' so to speak, but rather consider the case when a player honestly picks something for his character that he then finds out, the hard way, is subject to massive variation on whether or not he has a legal character! -James
Timlagor 04-06-07, 02:19 PM	If you discover you have an illegal character you make the minimum changes to make them legal ..just do so at a table where the judge declares your character illegal (or put up with the variation).
King Kashue 04-06-07, 04:01 PM	Whoa, the FAQ says that? Its always good when the FAQ contradicts itself: "Even though a metamagic feat changes the level of the slot occupied by the spell, it doesn’t actually change the spell’s level (except for the Heighten Spell feat, or any other effect that specifically changes the spell’s actual level). The reserve feats care about the spell’s actual level, not the spell slot it occupies." (FAQ 03/23/07, p. 28.) I can only speculate that because of the way counterspelling works, it ignores Heighten Spell as the exception not the rule. Except you're ignoring context... That answer is provided to answer a question regarding the reserve spell feats. The only effect heighten spell has is to raise the effective level of a spell, and since the reserve feats work off the effective level (as distinct from the spell slot), it matters for the feat. For the practical application of the reserve feats, a quickened magic missile is not a 5th level spell, but a heightened one is. I.e., it's not concerned with the spell on the spell list, but as it is at the moment you use the feat. Class Prerequisites aren't about at a specific moment, but rather your character in the abstract, which is when the spell list is significant. Fireball is a 3rd level spell on the Wizard spell list. No matter what feats you have, the text of the PHB doesn't change Even though Heighten Spell actually changes the level of the spell, for all effects, weird FAQ contradictions not withstanding? So the claim is that meeting a prereq is a spell effect? Care to show me the spell text that says that? I know that Magic missile does 1d4+1 per missile, and you have 1 missile for every two levels past first, but where does it mention meeting PrC prereqs under spell effects?
Arcane Guyver 04-06-07, 05:56 PM	Except you're ignoring context... That answer is provided to answer a question regarding the reserve spell feats. The only effect heighten spell has is to raise the effective level of a spell, and since the reserve feats work off the effective level (as distinct from the spell slot), it matters for the feat. For the practical application of the reserve feats, a quickened magic missile is not a 5th level spell, but a heightened one is. I.e., it's not concerned with the spell on the spell list, but as it is at the moment you use the feat. I'm not too sure on this ruling. Looking at the relevant text in the PHB... The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.
Sieylianna 04-06-07, 06:11 PM	It's used to meet requirements like '3 illusion spells of 4th level or higher' by having 3 illusion spells of lower than 4th level and using the heighten feat to claim they qualify as they can now be cast at 4th. Or even more cheesy, Argent Savant requires at least five spells with the force descriptot, at least one of which must be 5th level or higher. So I take heighten spell and have magic missile at five different levels. (Some one would try it, this is LG after all). Ed
King Kashue 04-06-07, 06:19 PM	I'm not too sure on this ruling. Looking at the relevant text in the PHB... This too is taken out of context... Heighten spell: You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. (PHB p.95). It's explicitly the "effective level" of the spell that changes. I.e., when you've got it memorized and when you cast it, it's treated "as if" it's a higher level spell. However, the spell itself in the abstract is the level it is on the spell list, I.e., it remains the level "it actually is".
jhorred 04-06-07, 06:50 PM	I'd say it wouldn't work. One way to look at this is that Heighten Spell doesn't change the level of the spell you know, it only changes the level of the spell as you memorize/cast it. A Fireball memorized as a 5th level spell with heighten spell is still only a 3rd level spell in your spellbook/spells known list/etc.
Samwise 04-06-07, 08:32 PM	Indeed, look at that "prepared" part. That would mean if you don't have the spell prepared, you don't qualify for your prestige class. Since there is no delay possible in taking your new level, unless you managed to end an adventure with a full roster of spells, you likely wouldn't be able to qualify in the first place. That also means spontaneous casters would never qualify. Since you must have them to qualify, you'd always have to commit slots to memorizing those spells, and you could never cast them or you'd lose your prestige class benefits in the middle of an encounter. Are there really people who want to go through this?
bitznarf 04-07-07, 01:38 AM	Class Prerequisites aren't about at a specific moment, but rather your character in the abstract, which is when the spell list is significant. Fireball is a 3rd level spell on the Wizard spell list. No matter what feats you have, the text of the PHB doesn't change Where are you coming up with this 'character in the abstract' premise? So the claim is that meeting a prereq is a spell effect? Care to show me the spell text that says that? I know that Magic missile does 1d4+1 per missile, and you have 1 missile for every two levels past first, but where does it mention meeting PrC prereqs under spell effects? Perhaps I used the wrong word, it 'acts in all ways as a X level spell.' 'All ways' includes qualifying for PrC prereqs the way I read it. Or even more cheesy, Argent Savant requires at least five spells with the force descriptot, at least one of which must be 5th level or higher. So I take heighten spell and have magic missile at five different levels. (Some one would try it, this is LG after all). Ed Well, its still the same spell, just at different spell levels. It *is* possible to have spells at different levels on your spell list, fire storm for example. This too is taken out of context... Heighten spell: You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. (PHB p.95). It's explicitly the "effective level" of the spell that changes. I.e., when you've got it memorized and when you cast it, it's treated "as if" it's a higher level spell. However, the spell itself in the abstract is the level it is on the spell list, I.e., it remains the level "it actually is". Once again you are talking about this 'abstract.' If a PC can cast a 4th level shadow spell, say a heightened legion of sentinels, the PC "has the ability to cast a 4th level shadow spell." I'd say it wouldn't work. One way to look at this is that Heighten Spell doesn't change the level of the spell you know, it only changes the level of the spell as you memorize/cast it. A Fireball memorized as a 5th level spell with heighten spell is still only a 3rd level spell in your spellbook/spells known list/etc. Indeed, look at that "prepared" part. That would mean if you don't have the spell prepared, you don't qualify for your prestige class. Since there is no delay possible in taking your new level, unless you managed to end an adventure with a full roster of spells, you likely wouldn't be able to qualify in the first place. That also means spontaneous casters would never qualify. Since you must have them to qualify, you'd always have to commit slots to memorizing those spells, and you could never cast them or you'd lose your prestige class benefits in the middle of an encounter. Are there really people who want to go through this? You go down this road Sam, then you have to require that a Io7V have a few abjuration spells prepared at all times, and so forth for other PrCs. Do you really want to go there? Note that this is the exact opposite of how King Kashue seems to believe PrC prereqs work.
King Kashue 04-07-07, 04:15 AM	You go down this road Sam, then you have to require that a Io7V have a few abjuration spells prepared at all times, and so forth for other PrCs. Do you really want to go there? Note that this is the exact opposite of how King Kashue seems to believe PrC prereqs work. No, it isn't, He agrees with me (because you've missed his argument entirely). He's not the one "going there", you are...What you're saying is that magic missile is a 5th level force spell when prepared with Heighten spell. What is it otherwise? A 1st level spell. So the only time it's a 5th level spell is when that character has it prepared as such, and thus the only time the character trying to do that would qualify for his Argent Savant is when he has it prepared with the Heighten Spell feat. Otherwise, it's just a plain old 1st level spell... That's Samwise's point (and my point), and that's the problem with your construction, the spells only meet the requirement when they're prepared with the heighten spell feat, and thus you can only meet your requirements with the spells prepared yet uncast. Just to be clear...What you're saying is, the intent of the game designers when writing "Must be able to cast a 5th level force spell" (for Argent Savant) or "Must be able to cast a 5th level abjuration" (for Initiate of the Seventh Veil), when writing that, their intent was to allow characters to take magic missile or shield and use that plus heighten spell to qualify? That's what you think their intent was? To allow a 1st level spell and a feat to satisfy a requirement of a "5th Level spell"?
Arcane Guyver 04-07-07, 06:56 AM	To be honest, I thought that was a main function of the less-than-amazing Heighten Spell feat. It has one purpose - it allows you to alter the level of spells known.
Samwise 04-07-07, 08:42 AM	What King Kashue said. (Post #19.) If you want to rely on heighten spell to meet the prerequisites, you do so only when the spells are properly prepared. Otherwise, your build is instantly illegal.
Sieylianna 04-07-07, 09:59 AM	To be honest, I thought that was a main function of the less-than-amazing Heighten Spell feat. It has one purpose - it allows you to alter the level of spells known. IMO, the main value of the Heighten spell feat is raising the DC of a saving throw. Hold person has a nice effect, but the saving throw every round makes it less effective than in 3.0. Now if you heighten it from 2nd to 6th level, that saving throw becomes a lot more difficult. I used it extensively in the living death campaign where the mechanics of my class meant that I had 8th level spell slots, but didn't know any spells above 3rd level. I don't think it's that useful in LG. Ed
JamesMaissen 04-07-07, 12:35 PM	What King Kashue said. (Post #19.) If you want to rely on heighten spell to meet the prerequisites, you do so only when the spells are properly prepared. Otherwise, your build is instantly illegal. How is 'able to cast 5th level spells' then not dependant upon having 5th level spells currently memorized and uncast? If the phrase is 'able to cast a 5th level evocation spell' for example then wouldn't a 10th level sorcerer with heighten and fireball (and a 15 CHA) be able to do so? I'm not saying that this was intended. Nor am I saying that it is even right or proper. However it does seem grey to me by the letter of things and a place that they really should attempt to clear up. For qualifying for classes the bar has seemed to be that 'be able' doesn't mean 'able right now' but rather 'can do so'. -James
ithardin 04-07-07, 01:52 PM	I want to echo something Sam said that I think gets forgotten in the context of all our gaming in LG...the intent of those writing the material. The LGCS mentions playing with both the letter AND the spirit (intent) of the rules. And now I apologize for going real-world right now: Often the ruling of a court of law, etc is based on the intent of those drafting the law that it is under scrutiny. One looks to the context, original reason the law was written and enacted, etc to apply it to current situations. That is all I am advocating here. When you are making PC building decisions and see something you think you can "massage" to accomplish your goals, go back to that idea of intent. Prestige Classes are (broken record) supposed to be PRESTIGOUS and so I for one think that we need to be mindful of that in our PC building.
King Kashue 04-07-07, 03:04 PM	How is 'able to cast 5th level spells' then not dependant upon having 5th level spells currently memorized and uncast? If the phrase is 'able to cast a 5th level evocation spell' for example then wouldn't a 10th level sorcerer with heighten and fireball (and a 15 CHA) be able to do so? No, he's able to cast a 3rd level spell "as if it were a higher level than it actually is"... That's the text of the feat in quotes...And that seems a rather salient difference...
Timlagor 04-07-07, 07:44 PM	Prestige Classes are (broken record) supposed to be PRESTIGOUS and so I for one think that we need to be mindful of that in our PC building. Nothing about the emchanics of prestige classes suggest they are supposed to be anything of the sort. They had to call them somethign and that's what they picked. "Specialist" or "Advanced" would suit what they have done with them much better. Claiming their are "prestigious" leads to nonsense like people claiming you shouldn't be allowed to enter more than one which is clearly not the intention of the writers. (you still can't use Heighter like this though)
Samwise 04-07-07, 09:06 PM	How is 'able to cast 5th level spells' then not dependant upon having 5th level spells currently memorized and uncast? Becuase a 1st (or whatever) level spell, until it is memorized with heighten spell, is simply not a 5th level spell. Nowhere in your spellbook do you have "Heightened (5th level) Magic Missile" wriiten down, so you can not actually cast a 5th level force spell on the basis of knowing magic missile and having the heighten spell feat. If the phrase is 'able to cast a 5th level evocation spell' for example then wouldn't a 10th level sorcerer with heighten and fireball (and a 15 CHA) be able to do so? No, he can't. Because just standing around he doesn't know any 5th level evocation spell. I'm not saying that this was intended. Nor am I saying that it is even right or proper. However it does seem grey to me by the letter of things and a place that they really should attempt to clear up. In which case the requirement to work according to the spirit of the rules means you shouldn't be doing it. For qualifying for classes the bar has seemed to be that 'be able' doesn't mean 'able right now' but rather 'can do so'. -James So if I have a 13 Strength and someone might be able to cast heroics on me, I qualify for a prestige class that requires the power attack feat because even I am "not able right now" I theoretically "can do so."
JamesMaissen 04-08-07, 09:44 AM	Becuase a 1st (or whatever) level spell, until it is memorized with heighten spell, is simply not a 5th level spell. Nowhere in your spellbook do you have "Heightened (5th level) Magic Missile" wriiten down, so you can not actually cast a 5th level force spell on the basis of knowing magic missile and having the heighten spell feat. And a wizard who cast all his spells the prior day can't cast a 5th level spell until he sits down to memorize one. If he counts as 'able to cast a 5th level spell' then why is heighten *not* valid? No, he can't. Because just standing around he doesn't know any 5th level evocation spell. And a wizard doesn't 'know' any spells, except perhaps Read Magic and those via spell mastery. He is 'able to cast' a 5th level evocation spell either by having a cone of cold memorized or a hieghtened (to 5th) fireball memorized. If merely being able to memorize (and then cast) cone of cold is sufficient then so should the other. Meanwhile if the fireball needs to be memorized then so does the cone of cold. In which case the requirement to work according to the spirit of the rules means you shouldn't be doing it. I'm not. But I want a consistant ruling, especially should I be telling someone that their character is not valid at a table I'm running. How is requiring a hieghtened spell to be memorized in keeping with things when a non heightened spell is not required to be memorized? So if I have a 13 Strength and someone might be able to cast heroics on me, I qualify for a prestige class that requires the power attack feat because even I am "not able right now" I theoretically "can do so." So 'able to cast 5th level spells' means that you must maintain a memorized 5th level spell or spell slot (for spontaneous casters)? And those PrCs are some kind of reserve feat? The problem is drawing the line here. If a memorized heightened spell works then why not an unmemorized one? If being 'able' to do so means being able to prepare another day then it doesn't need to be memorized. If it does need to be memorized then the same criteria needs to be for the normal cone of cold spell. That's the problem I have here. Secondly is that alot of these things are not clearly defined or even consistantly used. -James
Samwise 04-08-07, 12:14 PM	And a wizard who cast all his spells the prior day can't cast a 5th level spell until he sits down to memorize one. If he counts as 'able to cast a 5th level spell' then why is heighten *not* valid? Becuase "heightened whatever spell" is not a spell. By knowing magic missile you can cast whatever spell, but you must add another specific step outside of simply referring to your character sheet to be able to cast heightened whatever spell. And a wizard doesn't 'know' any spells, except perhaps Read Magic and those via spell mastery. He is 'able to cast' a 5th level evocation spell either by having a cone of cold memorized or a hieghtened (to 5th) fireball memorized. If merely being able to memorize (and then cast) cone of cold is sufficient then so should the other. That is not correct. A wizard "knows" every spell in his spellbook. At which point, see above. I'm not. But I want a consistant ruling, especially should I be telling someone that their character is not valid at a table I'm running. How is requiring a hieghtened spell to be memorized in keeping with things when a non heightened spell is not required to be memorized? See above. Unless you have heightened whatever spell written in your spellbook as opposed to whatever spell So 'able to cast 5th level spells' means that you must maintain a memorized 5th level spell or spell slot (for spontaneous casters)? And those PrCs are some kind of reserve feat? No, it means you must know the spells, either by sorcerer allotment, or written in your spellbook. Otherwise they don't count as a spell of that level. The problem is drawing the line here. If a memorized heightened spell works then why not an unmemorized one? If being 'able' to do so means being able to prepare another day then it doesn't need to be memorized. If it does need to be memorized then the same criteria needs to be for the normal cone of cold spell. Yet again, because heightened whatever spell is not a spell. You can not point to your character sheet and show where it is a spell you have selected as a spontaneous caster. You can not point to your character sheet and show where it is part of your spellbook. It exists only as a memorized spell, and therefore is not part of your default character.
thorinXXX 04-08-07, 12:40 PM	Any concept that requires such contortions from the rules should expect it not to work a considerable amount of time. When you are talking about class abilities, why bother? I normally do not like 'spirit of the rules' arguements, as anyone can come up with some spurious arguement on why something really was intended but not stated. But, in this case, it is clear that what was intended was for a spell of a specific school to be listed on the class spell list at a specific level.
ithardin 04-08-07, 03:48 PM	[QUOTE=Timlagor;12018168]Nothing about the emchanics of prestige classes suggest they are supposed to be anything of the sort. They had to call them somethign and that's what they picked. "Specialist" or "Advanced" would suit what they have done with them much better. Maybe nothing about the "mechanics" suggests it, but how many PrCs have in their description the words "rare," "few," "select," "elite," etc.? Some have very difficult in-game or RP pre-reqs that are intended to make them rare(er). Case in point is the Pious Templar. Read the description of Pious Templar and then explain to me why there are an inordinate number of Pious Templars in the LG world (and amazingly with only one or two levels of the PrC) and I'll show you a whole slew of ungaurded temple sites:D And now that I have once-again flogged my favorite dead horse I'll move on.
JamesMaissen 04-08-07, 07:37 PM	Becuase "heightened whatever spell" is not a spell. No, it means you must know the spells, either by sorcerer allotment, or written in your spellbook. Otherwise they don't count as a spell of that level. But you *would* allow a person with a heightened fireball *memorized* to qualify while it was memorized. This seems completely at odds with things, James
King Kashue 04-08-07, 07:52 PM	But you *would* allow a person with a heightened fireball *memorized* to qualify while it was memorized. This seems completely at odds with things, James No, he wouldn't. He was saying that's the only way that interpretation works, and was citing the example to demonstrate how absurd that interpretation is...
Samwise 04-08-07, 08:06 PM	Again, what King Kashue said.
ithardin 04-08-07, 08:16 PM	Huzzah and here, here!
JamesMaissen 04-08-07, 08:33 PM	No, he wouldn't. He was saying that's the only way that interpretation works, and was citing the example to demonstrate how absurd that interpretation is... Sorry, didn't follow it that way. Sounded like he was saying that if someone kept it memorized it would work which seemed not to fit with the rest of the way the wording is typically interpretted. -James
bitznarf 04-08-07, 11:02 PM	You know folks, I think you have me convinced for this reason: a caster who prepares his spells doesn't have a X level of Y school without preparing one that way, and short of some rules contortion (that I don't think can actually be proved wrong by RAW alone), doesn't have that prerequisite fulfilled. It doesn't seem to be a stretch to require the same sort of thing from a spontaneous caster. I had been looking at it from the other direction, that of a spontaneous caster qualifying for it. The problem comes in when you try to apply that logic to a prepared spellcaster, it just doesn't work well. When taken in the context of only spontaneous spellcasters, it works well (IMO), but when you add prepared spellcasters to the mix, not so much. I guess I make sure I have shadow well available before I take my 8th level.
KarmaInferno 04-09-07, 01:06 PM	The only sane way prerequisites work is if they mean the overall class or feat ability to do X thing, not the momentary current state of the ability. Like an 8th level wizard has the class ability to cast 4th level spells. If does not prepare any spells that morning, he simply has a class ability that he can't use at the moment. He still has the class ability. Which should mean that any prerequisites that require the ability to cast 4th level spells should still remain intact. Similarly, if a rogue is slapped into a breastplate, he cannot use his Evasion ability. That does not mean he does not have Evasion, only that he can't use it at the moment. Any feat or class that has the prerequisite of Evasion should be unaffected. Trying to say that the current usability of the ability affects other character options that have that ability as a prerequisite opens up a massive amount of confusion and grey areas. -karma
bitznarf 04-09-07, 01:08 PM	Then under that assumption, the Heighten X thing would work, if I read what you are writing correctly.
KarmaInferno 04-09-07, 01:23 PM	Not necessarily, because Heighten Spell effectively produces a "current momentary state" type effect. The spell isn't actually higher level, it's still the same level in your spellbook, you just at that moment have it heightened as if it were higher level. When I say "the overall feat", I mean the existence of that feat in the character's build, not the feat's effect. If you have something that requires the ability to cast 4th level Divination spells, it should mean that you've got a fourth level divination spell actually in your spellbook or known spells list, not just a lower level one heightened to 4th level. Allowing feat or class prerequisites to be based on momentary things like heightening a spell just creates headaches. -karma
bitznarf 04-09-07, 01:44 PM	For a spontaneous spellcaster, its hardly momentary, the spell is whatever level the caster wants it to be.
KarmaInferno 04-09-07, 01:57 PM	No, because the level of the spell in the sorcerer's "spells known" list does not change. If a sorcerer Heightens a 2nd level spell to 7th level, it's still a second level spell that he knows. He's just using a feat to temporarily alter the effective level it's cast at. Even if he does not use Heighten and simply uses a 7th level slot to cast a 2nd level spell (perhaps because he's out of other spell slots), the spell is still a 2nd level spell in his Known Spells. The existence of a ability in your character build is a distinct and different thing than the USE of said ability. Having or not having an ability is not the same as using or not being able to use that ability Really, the only time gaining or losing prerequisites should even be a concern is when: A) You take abilities when leveling up (like taking Dodge so you can fulfill the prerequisite for later taking Mobility) or otherwise add to your character build (like adding spells to your spellbook or spells known), or B) When you actually LOSE the prerequisite. Like a 7th level wizard dying and losing a level and being unable to cast 4th level spells. Feats and classes should not be shutting off and on and off over the course of playing an adventure just because of normal usage or non-usage of their prerequisites.
bitznarf 04-09-07, 04:20 PM	No, because the level of the spell in the sorcerer's "spells known" list does not change. If a sorcerer Heightens a 2nd level spell to 7th level, it's still a second level spell that he knows. He's just using a feat to temporarily alter the effective level it's cast at. Even if he does not use Heighten and simply uses a 7th level slot to cast a 2nd level spell (perhaps because he's out of other spell slots), the spell is still a 2nd level spell in his Known Spells. And this is where the difference in opinion/interpretation lies. 'You folks' (those who don't like this cheese) seem to believe that it is the character's spell list that is the overriding 'trump' ruling, whereas I look at it as Heighten Spell (the specific rule) changing the spell list (the general rule.) The existence of a ability in your character build is a distinct and different thing than the USE of said ability. Having or not having an ability is not the same as using or not being able to use that ability Really, the only time gaining or losing prerequisites should even be a concern is when: A) You take abilities when leveling up (like taking Dodge so you can fulfill the prerequisite for later taking Mobility) or otherwise add to your character build (like adding spells to your spellbook or spells known), or B) When you actually LOSE the prerequisite. Like a 7th level wizard dying and losing a level and being unable to cast 4th level spells. Feats and classes should not be shutting off and on and off over the course of playing an adventure just because of normal usage or non-usage of their prerequisites. I like this, I should make a note to show it to MwaO, should the 'losing PrC prerequisites' come up again.
solbergb 04-09-07, 04:22 PM	The problem is that the only time your opinion matters is when you're the judge, not when you're the player. So variation on this topic can only hurt your character. It can never help it. Any variation that strips you of class abilities if ruled against you is a really bad idea in Living Greyhawk. Just qualify for it properly. Take extra spell or something. Take a special mission to get the L4 NONC spell you need. Or live without the PRC.
bitznarf 04-09-07, 04:23 PM	The problem is that the only time your opinion matters is when you're the judge, not when you're the player. So variation on this topic can only hurt your character. It can never help it. Any variation that strips you of class abilities if ruled against you is a really bad idea in Living Greyhawk. Just qualify for it properly. Take extra spell or something. Take a special mission to get the L4 NONC spell you need. Or live without the PRC. It is currently my plan to request access to shadow well through a special mission. That doesn't mean I can't debate it though, and try to change some minds ;)
Samwise 04-09-07, 04:25 PM	And this is where the difference in opinion/interpretation lies. 'You folks' (those who don't like this cheese) seem to believe that it is the character's spell list that is the overriding 'trump' ruling, whereas I look at it as Heighten Spell (the specific rule) changing the spell list (the general rule.) How does it actually change the spell list? I like this, I should make a note to show it to MwaO, should the 'losing PrC prerequisites' come up again. I said the same thing (as KarmaInferno) on that thread. I think MwaO is completely wrong on that, confusing having a class ability with being able to use a class ability at a particular moment.
bitznarf 04-09-07, 05:12 PM	How does it actually change the spell list? I think I used the wrong words there. Its more that for the spontaneous spellcaster with heighten spell, the spell is considered to be anywhere from level X (the unmodified level of the spell) to level Y (the max level the caster can cast.) We already know that spells can be at different levels on the same spell list due to domains, (fire storm), why not due to a metamagic feat?
Mommy was an Orc 04-09-07, 05:15 PM	I like this, I should make a note to show it to MwaO, should the 'losing PrC prerequisites' come up again. It doesn't help you at all - I agree with it fully - you and Sam have a different definition of normal state than I do.
mlund 04-09-07, 08:52 PM	I think conditional augmentation isn't going to cut it. I mean, if I own a scroll of Heightened [Spell X] and have sufficient Use Magic Device to crack it off I shouldn't be qualifying for the Prestige Class. It should be dependent upon your Spells Known / Spell Book only - not based on what you can or can't do by applying outside effects to the spell or using items to access the spell. - Marty Lund
JJeff 04-09-07, 09:22 PM	Karma, by your definition, if a wizard/ArgSav didn't prepare any Force spells that day, he would lose access to the PrC, right? Since the pre-req is ability to cast FORCE spells, not just the ability to cast X level spells. The ability to cast Force spells is not a class ability, it's a "potential to be able to do this" thing. The believe personally that Heightened spell doesn't change the BASE level of the spell, only the level which it is at for all variables dependant on spell level. Meaning, that any variable that is affected by spell level the heightened spell is treated at the higher level (DC, distance, damage, ability to pen Globes of Invul), but the base spell is not changed until AFTER it is cast. This means while you are casting it is still a X level spell, not a X+Heightened level spell, thus a Spellcraft check would still be 15+X, not 15+X+Y. Thus, since you are not casting a X+Y level spell (the spell only becomes X+Y level after casting is finished), you don't ever qualify for PrCs that need you to be able to cast a X+Y level spell. I could be wrong, but that's the way i see it now.
bitznarf 04-09-07, 09:31 PM	I think conditional augmentation isn't going to cut it. I mean, if I own a scroll of Heightened [Spell X] and have sufficient Use Magic Device to crack it off I shouldn't be qualifying for the Prestige Class. It should be dependent upon your Spells Known / Spell Book only - not based on what you can or can't do by applying outside effects to the spell or using items to access the spell. - Marty Lund I understand what you are saying about the scroll and UMD, and it makes sense to me both by the RAW, and the RAI that it shouldn't qualify. However, the second bit of that is what I have trouble swallowing. Where are you pulling this opinion from? Ie. what supporting evidence do you have (RAW or RAI)?
bitznarf 04-09-07, 09:35 PM	Karma, by your definition, if a wizard/ArgSav didn't prepare any Force spells that day, he would lose access to the PrC, right? Since the pre-req is ability to cast FORCE spells, not just the ability to cast X level spells. The ability to cast Force spells is not a class ability, it's a "potential to be able to do this" thing. Not addressing this as the question was posed to Karma. The believe personally that Heightened spell doesn't change the BASE level of the spell, only the level which it is at for all variables dependant on spell level. Meaning, that any variable that is affected by spell level the heightened spell is treated at the higher level (DC, distance, damage, ability to pen Globes of Invul), but the base spell is not changed until AFTER it is cast. Metamagic is part of casting the spell, not something that is tagged on after the fact. It's all one. This means while you are casting it is still a X level spell, not a X+Heightened level spell, thus a Spellcraft check would still be 15+X, not 15+X+Y. Thus, since you are not casting a X+Y level spell (the spell only becomes X+Y level after casting is finished), you don't ever qualify for PrCs that need you to be able to cast a X+Y level spell. How is "15+spell level" (the relevant spellcraft check) not a "level dependent effect?"
Eric Anondson 04-09-07, 09:36 PM	It should be dependent upon your Spells Known / Spell Book only - not based on what you can or can't do by applying outside effects to the spell or using items to access the spell.It should be, but the wording of a select few classes explicitly only say "must be able to cast three blah blah spells". Rules contortions then lead to saying that Heighten Spell niftily forks a single spell into three different spells at three different levels. But I don't think it needs much more interpretation. PrCs that require a character to be able to cast "three [blank] spells" aren't opened to characters with the Heighten Spell feat that forks the same spell into three different spell levels. Its still the same spell, just at different spell levels. I see little abuse with allowing a spontaneous caster, who took the unimpressive Heighten Spell feat, to be able to qualify for a PrC like Shadowcraft Mage if they know the three illusion spells and one of the illusion spells is a shadow spell lower than 4th level, but the spontaneous caster is capable Heightening is lower level shadow spell to a 4th level spell. The spontaneous caster isn't getting access to the class any earlier than a prepare caster. The spontaneous caster has to drop a precious feat slot on a lame Heighten Spell feat. The spontaneous caster still must be able to cast 4th level spells (in the example of the Shadowcraft Mage), which ends up meaning the spontaneous caster still gets into PrCs a level later than prepared casters. The spontaneous caster must still be able to cast a a specific quantity of different spells because Heighten Spell doesn't morph spells into wholy different spells.
bitznarf 04-09-07, 09:58 PM	It should be, but the wording of a select few classes explicitly only say "must be able to cast three blah blah spells". Rules contortions then lead to saying that Heighten Spell niftily forks a single spell into three different spells at three different levels. Well, I don't recall ever saying anything of this sort to be honest. Its still the same spell, regardless of the level it is at. Take my much used fire storm example, its still the same spell, its just at 2 spots on the spell list. But I don't think it needs much more interpretation. PrCs that require a character to be able to cast "three [blank] spells" aren't opened to characters with the Heighten Spell feat that forks the same spell into three different spell levels. Its still the same spell, just at different spell levels. Exactly. I see little abuse with allowing a spontaneous caster, who took the unimpressive Heighten Spell feat, to be able to qualify for a PrC like Shadowcraft Mage if they know the three illusion spells and one of the illusion spells is a shadow spell lower than 4th level, but the spontaneous caster is capable Heightening is lower level shadow spell to a 4th level spell. The spontaneous caster isn't getting access to the class any earlier than a prepare caster. The spontaneous caster has to drop a precious feat slot on a lame Heighten Spell feat. The spontaneous caster still must be able to cast 4th level spells (in the example of the Shadowcraft Mage), which ends up meaning the spontaneous caster still gets into PrCs a level later than prepared casters. The spontaneous caster must still be able to cast a a specific quantity of different spells because Heighten Spell doesn't morph spells into wholy different spells. Exactly! The possible cheese/abuse actually comes later, when Heighten Spell actually becomes useful when combined with Earth Spell and Shadowcraft Mage's shadow illusion ability. But we shouldn't jump all over something simply because a particular combination works well.
Samwise 04-10-07, 12:38 PM	Well, I don't recall ever saying anything of this sort to be honest. Its still the same spell, regardless of the level it is at. Take my much used fire storm example, its still the same spell, its just at 2 spots on the spell list. No, it isn't. It is on two different spell lists, and each spell list is an independent entity. You would only cast the spell at both those levels if you were multiclassed.
bitznarf 04-10-07, 12:44 PM	No, it isn't. It is on two different spell lists, and each spell list is an independent entity. You would only cast the spell at both those levels if you were multiclassed. Actually Sam, it can be cast at 2 different levels by a straight cleric, no multiclassing is needed: Clr 8, Drd 7, Fire 7
Samwise 04-10-07, 01:01 PM	Actually Sam, it can be cast at 2 different levels by a straight cleric, no multiclassing is needed: Clr 8, Drd 7, Fire 7 I forgot about the domains. Those are however technically distinct spell lists. I would also note that because clerics know every spell on their spell list, this situation really only applies to arcane casters.
mlund 04-10-07, 02:17 PM	I understand what you are saying about the scroll and UMD, and it makes sense to me both by the RAW, and the RAI that it shouldn't qualify. However, the second bit of that is what I have trouble swallowing. Where are you pulling this opinion from? Ie. what supporting evidence do you have (RAW or RAI)? The consistent application of logic. Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. It uses the same "as if" wording as Heighten Spell, the whole "cast as if ..." clause. It specifically says you "cast" the spell. So UMD clearly grants you the ability cast [Spell X] if you have the scroll. You might not always pull it off, but the answer to "can you cast Spell X" is distinctly "yes." If being able to cast [Spell X] by any possible means (including UMD w/ Scroll) open to the character qualifies for "can cast [Spell X]" all Hell breaks loose. If we accept that this is not sufficient to meet the Prerequisites, than what does qualify? Continuous effects like a Headband of Intellect giving you access to higher level spell casting? Continuous negative effects like Feeblemind shutting off your ability to use spells? Song of Arcane Power getting a high Perform Check to bump your Caster Level to base + 4? - Marty Lund
KarmaInferno 04-12-07, 03:54 AM	Karma, by your definition, if a wizard/ArgSav didn't prepare any Force spells that day, he would lose access to the PrC, right? Since the pre-req is ability to cast FORCE spells, not just the ability to cast X level spells. The ability to cast Force spells is not a class ability, it's a "potential to be able to do this" thing. Er, I'm not sure how you're getting this from my posts. I'm in the "prerequisites refer to possessing the ability to do something, not the actual use of that ability" boat. If you have a Force spell of the appropriate level in your spellbook, you should qualify for any prestige class requirement of that type and level of spell. It's in your character build. Whether you prepared it or not that day is irrelevant. Conversely, if you do not have a 4th level divination spell in your spellbook or spells known list, heightening a 2nd level divination to 4th level won't help you one bit in qualifying for a prestige class that requires 4th level divinations. I'm of the opinion that prerequisites are things in your character build, not things your character does on a day-to-day basis. Gaining feats and prestige classes are adding things to your character build, after all, and should only be qualified for by other abilities you selected earlier in your build. Stuff like using a temporary modifier to artificially gain an ability should never qualify. -karma
daladinn 04-12-07, 07:29 AM	ok, here is my problem with alot of these "rulings"... its a case of have your cake and eat it too.. a temporary removal of an ability can cause the temporary removal of subsequent abilities. (example number 1 -a ray of enfeeblement drops a fighter below 13 str he now loses power attack and every feat the relies on power attack.)( example number 2 - an arcane loses intellect so he loses his ability to cast his higher level spells.) the temporary aquisition of abilities can allow access to other abilities. ( having a magic item that raises your wisdom can allow a divine caster higher spell access.) magic items that grant feats and or stats allowing you to qualify for prestige classes still qualifies you for those prestige classes. now if the temporary acquistion of abilities and the temporary removal has been show to alter what is temporary available then by simple extension if someone can "show" that they have a spell of a given type that is castable at a given level then it should be valid.
mlund 04-12-07, 01:09 PM	now if the temporary acquistion of abilities and the temporary removal has been show to alter what is temporary available then by simple extension if someone can "show" that they have a spell of a given type that is castable at a given level then it should be valid. The issue is the definition of "temporary." "Temporary" is not the same thing as "mutable." Almost every aspect of a character is mutable in some way. You can take permanent ability drain or level drain. You can retrain Class Abilities or Skill Ranks. You can gain a stat boost through leveling. You can lose a level-based stat boost due to Negative Levels. The list goes on and one. So not character's given stats and abilities are immutable. So that means "temporary" doesn't mean "subject to alteration at a later time." Wearing a Headband of Intellect is not a "temporary" alteration to the character's statistics if he or she owns the Headband on his Master Item Logsheet. Neither is the +1 bonus to Intelligence a Wizard might pick up at Level 8 or the +2 Constitution Bonus a Dwarf enjoys up until he gets Reincarnated as a Elf. Ownership of a Sailing Vessel that could be later destroyed is likewise not a "temporary" status for the aspiring Dread Pirate. Casting Fox's Cunning on one's self is a "temporary" alteration of the character's statistics as it has a non-optional expiration attached to it. Consumable goods with instantaneous or duration-based effects likewise represent "temporary" capacities. Modifications of Spells with Meta-Magic feats are likewise "temporary" capacities. If I had to draw a line here, it would be that qualifications for anything involving leveling up (gaining feats, retraining, taking prestige classes) would ignore "temporary" effects and capabilities when appraising the abilities of one's character - unless explicitly stating otherwise. For instance: Must be able to cast a [Cold] Spell of greater than 1st level Would be satisfied by: - Having Cone of Cold in one's spell book and being able to cast a 5th level Evocation - Knowing a Summon X spell and legally choose a creature with Type [Cold] Would not be satisfied by: - Having a Cone of Cold Scroll and Use Magic Device skill sufficient to possibly cast it from the scroll - Knowing the Fireball spell and the Energy Substitution (Cold) Feat - Being able to Duplicate the Cone of Cold by means of a Wish or Miracle - Being able to Heighten a Ray of Frost But that's strictly my own opinion on the matter. - Marty Lund
Mithrus 04-12-07, 04:09 PM	This topic also brings up a similar issue. Can you get int the PrC Fouch* Lyrist easier by acquiring a ring of evasion, thus eliminating the need for taking levels in rogue/scout/monk/ or master thrower? I REALLY hope pre-reqs are covered more clearly in the Rules Compendium...
mlund 04-12-07, 04:21 PM	This topic also brings up a similar issue. Can you get int the PrC Fouch* Lyrist easier by acquiring a ring of evasion, thus eliminating the need for taking levels in rogue/scout/monk/ or master thrower? No. The text on the Ring of Evasion does not say you gain "Evasion." Rather, it says: Evasion: This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage. You gain a special ability from the Ring that allows you to avoid damage. It uses the same mechanics as Evasion. You do not, however, gain Evasion. The ability only allows you to avoid damage, not to gain any other benefit from having Evasion - including qualifying for Improved Evasion or meeting prerequisites that require Evasion. Similarly being able to resist tripping attempts as if you had 4 legs would not qualify you for the +50% encumbrance benefit of having 4 legs. - Marty Lund