Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Casebier 04-13-06, 05:20 PM	The class ability of a 3rd level Holy Liberator is the Aura of Resolve. The ability states: ...gains immunity to all charm and compulsion effects. His mind is his own, and no other creature can control his thoughts or actions... Now, the ability doesn't say the immunity is limitted to spells and spell-like effects, and there is no rules listing for "Immunity" in the MM (or the PHB/DMG, but the MM "should" be the Primary Source here). 1. So how does a Holy Liberator react to the varying types of charm and compulsion effects? 2. Can the Holy Liberator accept Enchantment(Compulsion) buffs from other sources? Also, on the class's spell list, they have access to Heroism, an Enchantment(Compulsion) spell. Is the Holy Liberator able to successfully cast this spell on himself? I've been looking through the sourcebook and rulebooks, but I can't find an answer for my question there. I've also checked the Erratas, DC, and the FAQ. John Jr
King Kashue 04-14-06, 06:47 AM	The class ability of a 3rd level Holy Liberator is the Aura of Resolve. The ability states: ...gains immunity to all charm and compulsion effects. His mind is his own, and no other creature can control his thoughts or actions... Now, the ability doesn't say the immunity is limitted to spells and spell-like effects, and there is no rules listing for "Immunity" in the MM (or the PHB/DMG, but the MM "should" be the Primary Source here). You don't need the DMG or MM, you just need a dictionary... ;) Immune to (i.e., unaffected by) the specified effects, just as fire elementals are immune to fire, demons are immune to electricity, etc... As for spells or spell-like, it states "all" such effects, spells, spell like, supernatural, or extraordinary... As for whether they can cast beneficial spells on him, with normal spell immunity you can, I don't see a compelling reason to think it would be different in this case.
Arvagor 04-14-06, 10:27 AM	...gains immunity to all charm and compulsion effects. His mind is his own, and no other creature can control his thoughts or actions...One could interpret this in two ways. If we emphasize the "no other creature" section, that tells me that the HL determines whether such an effect affects him or not, including his own spells (although just because a spell is on your spell list, that doesn't mean it should have to affect you). Mostly I think this would be relevant for spells that have "(harmless)" in their saving throw or spell resistance entries. The other way is emphasizing "immunity" -- meaning any such spell or effect simply is not going to affect the HL, no matter what, even if it might be otherwise considered beneficial (such as heroism). It all depends on whether the HL can turn this immunity "off", like lowering spell resistance. I tend to err on the side of caution, and presume that immunity means just that, i.e. does not affect the PC no matter what, even if he wants it. The list of "beneficial" compulsions in the PHB is quite short compared to the harmful ones (aid, bless, heroism, greater heroism, and prayer are the only ones I could find)
Casebier 04-14-06, 12:08 PM	Another reason I'm trying to clarify this Immunity thing... The Spell Immunity Special Quality only applies to Spells and Spell-Like(SP) Abilities that allow Spell Resistance. It treats the owner of the ability as if they had an unbeatable SR against those spells. Spell Immunity doesn't apply to Supernatural(SU) abilities (like a vampire's gaze) The reason I believe it SHOULD be all effects (including SU), is because this is a Holy Liberator... they're going to be hunting vampires. Also, Holy Liberators don't have very good Will saves (besides Wisdom bonus and the Iron Will feat). John Jr
gomeztoo 04-15-06, 10:05 AM	If I recall it correctly, a creature can choose to lower its immunity to allow a spell to have effect. So I think a Holy Liberator can choose to have a Heroism spell affect him.
Arvagor 04-15-06, 11:09 AM	Well, this is the rules discussion forum, so if you can find an actual rules reference, feel free to post it, but an "if I recall correctly" doesn't count! ;) I think you're confusing immunity with spell resistance...spell resistance: [...] A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. ...The only other relevant mention of immunity I can find is the definition of spell immunity:spell immunity: A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity. Spell immunity is usually an extraordinary ability.Note the comment that it cannot be overcome, so a heroism spell is not going to affect him, regardless of whether he wants it to or not ... Now that I've had a chance to actually look at the HL's Aura of Resolve definition, there are two things we can note: It is an extraordinary ability (it has the (Ex) indicator) It only applies to certain effects ("all charm and compulsion effects") The last bit about spell resistance can be ignored, I think, as there are no charm or compulsion spells (at least, not in the PHB) that do not allow spell resistance. Unfortunately, the Aura also simply says "compulsion effects", and "effects" is not a game-defined term. In the absence of anything else, I would have to be inclined to say the Aura works just like spell immunity (and would therefore normally not apply to (Su) effects). But, the FAQ (top of page 62, 3/22/06 version) also implies that certain spells can apply to supernatural abilities:... For example a dispel evil spell will remove a vampire’s dominate person effect from a victim. Similarly spells that block mental control, such as protection from evil or magic circle against evil, suppress the effects of a vampire’s dominate person ability, as noted in their spell descriptions.My personal ruling as a DM would therefore be that if the (Su) ability in question duplicated a spell (which the vampire's Dominate (Su) ability does), then the HL's Aura would apply. BTW, I'm not sure why a HL is necessarily "going to be hunting vampires"; the class description makes no mention of undead anywhere. If you want to go hunt vampires, I would think classes like Hunter of the Dead, Master of Radiance, or Sacred Purifier would be better suited... The flavor of HL is much more of a "freedom fighter" type of class, and the write-up says just as much...
JamesMaissen 04-16-06, 02:49 AM	You are confusing what it means to overcome a creatures spellresistance. It is NOT the same thing as the creature lowering his/her resistance down, but rather by making the caster level check against the SR number. If a creature lowers its resistance it's not overcome, it's circumvented. -James
Casebier 04-16-06, 03:26 PM	You are right, it does not say anything about hunting vampire specifically. However, that Aura ability would make a HL ideal, if it worked against a vampire's Gaze attack (which is Supernatural). This character lives in Furyondy; what else is she going to encounter? (Besides Fiendish Badgers) :) There are a few things with Special Abilities and Spell Resistance that you left out (of the quotes):Special Abilities(MM): Supernatural: Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance.Spell Resistance(DMG): A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.Of course, this is all hinging on our Assumption that the Aura of Resolve grants the Spell Immunity ability to a broad range of effects. Since it never actually says Spell Immunity, this is still questionable. John Jr
JamesMaissen 04-16-06, 04:56 PM	This character lives in Furyondy; what else is she going to encounter? (Besides Fiendish Badgers) :) John Jr Barghasts. You seem to have as many of these things as the PoU has had Dopplegangers (or Geoff has had Giants). -James
Rawveggie 04-17-06, 06:10 PM	I think the most important text of that ability is "...his mind is his own". That would indicate to me that he can choose to allow something to effect him if he wants to. Otherwise that ability would do more harm than good (because the number of times an ally will try to help you with something that is an enchantment or a compulsion far surpasses the times an enemy will try to hinder you with the same). -Raw
Sieylianna 04-18-06, 07:20 AM	I think the most important text of that ability is "...his mind is his own". That would indicate to me that he can choose to allow something to effect him if he wants to. Otherwise that ability would do more harm than good (because the number of times an ally will try to help you with something that is an enchantment or a compulsion far surpasses the times an enemy will try to hinder you with the same). To me, that's flavor text. He doesn't suddenly have absolute control over everything that affects his mind, he has total immunity to a small set of magical effects. And in the absence of anything indicating that he can voluntarily give up immunity, like the one for spell resistance, he doesn't have an option to allow such spells to affect him. Ed
Maesto 04-18-06, 09:42 AM	I quote from the PHB, page 177: Voluntarily giving up a saving throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character wih a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf's resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality. Remember, an elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects". This would imply that Holy Liberators can accept mind affecting things if they want, one would argue, no? Jolyon
Arvagor 04-18-06, 10:03 AM	Remember, an elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects". This would imply that Holy Liberators can accept mind affecting things if they want, one would argue, no?No, because it really does depend on how the immunity works. Is it essentially unbeatable spell resistance for that particular type of effect, or is it like a golem's immunity? Note that a golem cannot voluntarily lower its magic immunity so that it can receive a harmless spell, but a golem’s magic immunity does not extend to magic the golem uses on itself (just as spell resistance doesn’t apply to such effects).If it's like SR, then allies could cast beneficial spells, but it would take a standard action for him to lower the SR, etc., to be affected. If it's more like a golem's immunity, then the magic never gets past the "immunity shell" (for lack of a better description) for him to allow himself to be affected.
King Kashue 04-20-06, 03:08 PM	No, because it really does depend on how the immunity works. Is it essentially unbeatable spell resistance for that particular type of effect, or is it like a golem's immunity? If it's like SR, then allies could cast beneficial spells, but it would take a standard action for him to lower the SR, etc., to be affected. If it's more like a golem's immunity, then the magic never gets past the "immunity shell" (for lack of a better description) for him to allow himself to be affected. A Golem's immunity is unusual however, which is why that condition is mentioned in the monster description... The standard text for spell immunity allows for lowering it (as I already mentioned)...You quoted it, but you've misinterpreted the meaning of the word "overcome", as has been pointed out... Spell immunity "works exactly like spell-resistance, except that it cannot be overcome" You "overcome" spell resistance with a caster level check, however with spell immunity, that cannot happen... Spell resistance can be willfully dropped by the person who has it, unless otherwise noted (as in the case of Golems)
King Kashue 04-20-06, 03:10 PM	Of course, this is all hinging on our Assumption that the Aura of Resolve grants the Spell Immunity ability to a broad range of effects. Since it never actually says Spell Immunity, this is still questionable. John Jr The thing is though, "charm" and "compulsion" are defined...And considering the word used it "All", spells would seem to fall in to that category, since nothing is excluded from "All"...
Casebier 04-26-06, 01:58 PM	But does this Unnamed Immunity apply to Supernatural effects? Spell Resistance, and therefore Spell Immunity, doesn't apply to Supernatural effects. I have only found one description of an Immunity ability that doesn't say "Spell Immunity" and that was in the Miniature Handbook. John Jr
GreatSiron 04-26-06, 11:12 PM	I'd have to side with the idea of nothing can affect his mind, not even his allies bit. Now he can affect himself with his own heroism, but the cleric can't. It's just something to balance out the ability. That goes for extraordinary abilities and supernatural abilities as well. Nothing can affect his mind, and I don't believe that is flavor text. Although effect isn't a game defined term, it normally means something that happens to someone.