Holy Word? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Holy Word? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cycloptic_squirrel
02-08-07, 02:30 AM More of a query: why wasn't blashemey and holy word moved to closed access? I've heard nothing positive about these spells except for when they were obviously being abused. I don't think of these spells when I think iconic D&D. Some regions authors/players already aren't using them, so why not ban them? I'd appreciate any insight on the situation.
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 02:33 AM More of a query: why wasn't blashemey and holy word moved to closed access? I've heard nothing positive about these spells except for when they were obviously being abused. I don't think of these spells when I think iconic D&D. Some regions authors/players already aren't using them, so why not ban them? I'd appreciate any insight on the situation.

They're banning the Divine Spellpower feat instead.

That leaves the problem of Crack Beads and other caster level boosting options to abuse the spells, but still...

I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB (which is where blasphemy and holy word come from), despite the fact that they already did just that for Disjunction and Permanency. We'll have to wait on the Dispel Confusion (which was supposed to be up by now) to know for sure.
cycloptic_squirrel
02-08-07, 02:50 AM They're banning the Divine Spellpower feat instead.

That leaves the problem of Crack Beads and other caster level boosting options to abuse the spells, but still...

I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB

Agreed. D. Spellpower doesn't affect most of the author tricks that scare me. I don't think Spellpower was particularly broken if Holy Word was gone, but that might just be my opinion.

We'll have to wait on the Dispel Confusion (which was supposed to be up by now) to know for sure.

C'mon Bob, be nice. Everyone on the circle are volunteers, which doesn't give an excuse for poor performance or repeatedly missed deadlines (neither of which has happened IMO), but it does mean that we could cut them a little more slack than we would if we were a paying customer.
I appreciate that you feel strongly about the campaign and want your opinions heard (I agree with most of what you say) but snide comments aren't the best way to go about it. The circle's descisions aren't made to screw us over, but to enhance the campaign and everybody's enjoyment (either that or I'm a big sucker :( ). So let's tell them why they're wrong for this (and the polymorph thing), but I'm pretty sure if we do it nicely, they'll be more apt to listen.
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 08:59 AM C'mon Bob, be nice. Everyone on the circle are volunteers, which doesn't give an excuse for poor performance or repeatedly missed deadlines (neither of which has happened IMO), but it does mean that we could cut them a little more slack than we would if we were a paying customer.
I appreciate that you feel strongly about the campaign and want your opinions heard (I agree with most of what you say) but snide comments aren't the best way to go about it. The circle's descisions aren't made to screw us over, but to enhance the campaign and everybody's enjoyment (either that or I'm a big sucker :( ). So let's tell them why they're wrong for this (and the polymorph thing), but I'm pretty sure if we do it nicely, they'll be more apt to listen.

I don't blame Britt for the DC not being up. I trust him that he sent it in. I blame WotC's web department for not getting it up.

I'm just annoyed that the meaningful discussion period (since Britt asked that we discuss this after the DC went up) for these topics is going to be shortened by the fact that WotC didn't get the Dispel Confusion up.
Itsa_Trika
02-08-07, 10:46 AM They're banning the Divine Spellpower feat instead.

That leaves the problem of Crack Beads and other caster level boosting options to abuse the spells, but still...

I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB (which is where blasphemy and holy word come from), despite the fact that they already did just that for Disjunction and Permanency. We'll have to wait on the Dispel Confusion (which was supposed to be up by now) to know for sure.

I've lost count how many times you've made this assertion in so many different threads. I can attest as a player, judge, and former campaign administrator that are far more uses for DMM/DSP than just Holy Word and Blasphemy. I've seen some casters who do not even cast spells without first spinning up their level. There are many spells that are affected by these feats that adversely affect the balance and the play of the game, not just Holy Word and Blasphemy.
CSHunt68
02-08-07, 10:48 AM Such as?
Jay_Ibero_911
02-08-07, 10:55 AM I've lost count how many times you've made this assertion in so many different threads. I can attest as a player, judge, and former campaign administrator that are far more uses for DMM/DSP than just Holy Word and Blasphemy. I've seen some casters who do not even cast spells without first spinning up their level. There are many spells that are affected by these feats that adversely affect the balance and the play of the game, not just Holy Word and Blasphemy.

There are plenty of other spells that benefit from DSP, but none so much as holy word/blasphemy. Sure, Divine Power gives you more bab, better chances with dispel magic, few extra damage dice from attack spells, and increased durations all around...Though I am pleased with the inclusion of Divine Ward and Sacred Healing from PHB 2. Divine Ward lets you mimic DMM:Reach on your allies...And Sacred Healing is an extra +2 to stack with Augment Healing...
Itsa_Trika
02-08-07, 10:57 AM Such as?

Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, and Barkskin to name three.
CSHunt68
02-08-07, 10:59 AM In what way does bumping those spells up three levels (or thereabouts) "adversely affect the balance and play of the game"?

Actually, let me answer that myself. It doesn't. You're talking about a slight increase in duration, and (not quite) a +1 bump. In that respect, we should ban Inspirational Boost, for the same reason. (And because almost every Bard now takes it, de rigeur.)
Timlagor
02-08-07, 11:12 AM Firstly DMM is a completely different animal to DSP and is undeniably broken.

DSP's benefit isn't massive on any particular spell (at lower levels) but, if you have a good Charisma, you can do it all day with no risk at all and it will add up. Meanwhile the cost is nearly zero (once you have the Feat) since 90%+ of the time you wouldn't be using those Turn Attempts at all.
DSP was definitely something that every (non-DMM) cleric should have -to the point where dumping charisma was no longer an option for 'optimisation'. With PHB2 in the game this is no longer the case as there are now plenty of other good Feats to use on the TAs.

Irrespective of DSP I'd be glad to see the back of the Holy Word class spells.

There is no way to get a BAB higher than your class level.
ranagrande
02-08-07, 11:13 AM I don't mind seeing DMM and DSP get Closed at all. However, I do think that Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos still need to be Closed as well.
CSHunt68
02-08-07, 11:24 AM Firstly DMM is a completely different animal to DSP and is undeniably broken.
I deny it. Just because you say it's "undeniably broken" doesn't make it so. :)

DSP's benefit isn't massive on any particular spell (at lower levels) but, if you have a good Charisma, you can do it all day with no risk at all and it will add up. Meanwhile the cost is nearly zero (once you have the Feat) since 90%+ of the time you wouldn't be using those Turn Attempts at all.
You can't do it all day with no risk at all. Unless you've spent even more Feats (one or more Extra Turnings) to have 10+ turn attempts.

As for the cost, it costs you Turn Attempts, as you've noted. Your argument seems to hold the position that Turning is, in and of itself, useless (but your argument also weakens the case for the necessity of ALL Divine Feats). This is why the developers started making other uses for those attempts. DSP is one of them.

DSP was definitely something that every (non-DMM) cleric should have -to the point where dumping charisma was no longer an option for 'optimisation'. With PHB2 in the game this is no longer the case as there are now plenty of other good Feats to use on the TAs.
This isn't a particularly good argument, although it may go to the point of the whole banning issue. It doesn't work for Magic Missile, or Inspirational Boost, or Extra Rage, or Power Attack, or Natural Spell, or anything else that's taken almost by default by iconics. Just because something is popular, doesn't automatically imply that it's broken.

I've seen far more Clerics without DSP than Bards without Inspirational Boost or Druids without Natural Spell.
FAR more.
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 11:34 AM Firstly DMM is a completely different animal to DSP and is undeniably broken.

DSP's benefit isn't massive on any particular spell (at lower levels) but, if you have a good Charisma, you can do it all day with no risk at all and it will add up. Meanwhile the cost is nearly zero (once you have the Feat) since 90%+ of the time you wouldn't be using those Turn Attempts at all.
DSP was definitely something that every (non-DMM) cleric should have -to the point where dumping charisma was no longer an option for 'optimisation'. With PHB2 in the game this is no longer the case as there are now plenty of other good Feats to use on the TAs.

Irrespective of DSP I'd be glad to see the back of the Holy Word class spells.

There is no way to get a BAB higher than your class level.

I know plenty of 8-CHA Clerics who don't use Divine feats at all. They're still quite effective, they just use different feats. It wasn't a "mandatory" thing by any means.
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 11:37 AM This isn't a particularly good argument, although it may go to the point of the whole banning issue. It doesn't work for Magic Missile, or Inspirational Boost, or Extra Rage, or Power Attack, or Natural Spell, or anything else that's taken almost by default by iconics. Just because something is popular, doesn't automatically imply that it's broken.

I've seen far more Clerics without DSP than Bards without Inspirational Boost or Druids without Natural Spell.
FAR more.

Well stated. Of the Clerics I know, DSP was taken by perhaps 15% of them. Far more went for DMM, which is admittedly far harder to justify saving (I'd prefer it be NONC rather than Closed, however).

One of the big problems I have is that the Circle lumped DSP and DMM together to attack them, while leaving in and adding a ton of other "Divine" feats to use Turn Attempts on.
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 11:41 AM As for the cost, it costs you Turn Attempts, as you've noted. Your argument seems to hold the position that Turning is, in and of itself, useless (but your argument also weakens the case for the necessity of ALL Divine Feats). This is why the developers started making other uses for those attempts. DSP is one of them.

Actually, WotC's internal design documents have shown that Turning Undead was never intended to last, without serious feat/PrC investment, into high levels. This is a function of the fact that hit dice per CR just advance too bloody fast, the moment you advance any undead by hit dice they pretty much become unturnable by default (a CR 10 HD-advanced undead in an APL 10 encounter, that's an even-with-APL CR, probably has 18 HD plus Turn Resistance and is unturnable even by a Radiant Servant).

Divine feats were the counter for this, to give clerics something - anything - to do with the only class feature they get during their entire evolution.
MatteBlack
02-08-07, 11:59 AM I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB (which is where blasphemy and holy word come from), despite the fact that they already did just that for Disjunction and Permanency.

In general, I agree with the philosophy of sticking closer to the core books than the expanded range of materials. It is a minor effect in keeping down the cost of needed materials and, for the most part, the core rules are much better developed and test played. Perhaps, the spells are more the fault than the feat in this instance but, I don't feel there tendency to remain more to the core vision is one to be faulted or ridiculed.

Lee
Madfox11
02-08-07, 12:05 PM Do you have any GOOD suggestions on replacements for these spells and remember that they are central to four domains and two major templates from the core books?
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 12:39 PM Do you have any GOOD suggestions on replacements for these spells and remember that they are central to four domains and two major templates from the core books?

Mass Cure Serious Wounds and Mass Inflict Serious Wounds come to mind as reasonable same-level substitutes that don't have the instakill cheese associated with them.

Thankfully, Dictum and Word of Chaos aren't involved in major templates.

For Blasphemy, Mass Inflict Serious is a fair replacement: same level spell, area effect as well.
For Holy Word, Mass Cure Serious, same reasoning.

Since Dictum and Word of Chaos are Law/Chaos spells, perhaps something not so much on the Good/Evil spectrum. Greater Bestow Curse comes to mind, Brilliant Blade, Mass Spell Resistance, or possibly (NONC) radiant assault or mass restoration.

There you go.
Timlagor
02-08-07, 01:44 PM This isn't a particularly good argument, although it may go to the point of the whole banning issue.

Extra Rage takes a serious chunk out of the reasons for taking lots of Barbarian levels.
Power Attack is too powerful.
Natural Spell -well it's "all change" for druids right now so...
Magic Missile isn't automatically taken by all arcanists so it's not relevant.

I'm not claiming any of these should be banned but then I'm not claiming DSP should either: I'm jsut saying it's very powerful.
CSHunt68
02-08-07, 01:53 PM Well, my point is _something_ is always going to be "very powerful" in relation to other things. That's just the way it goes.
Bob_the_Theurge
02-08-07, 01:56 PM Extra Rage takes a serious chunk out of the reasons for taking lots of Barbarian levels.
Power Attack is too powerful.
Natural Spell -well it's "all change" for druids right now so...
Magic Missile isn't automatically taken by all arcanists so it's not relevant.

I'm not claiming any of these should be banned but then I'm not claiming DSP should either: I'm jsut saying it's very powerful.

"Very powerful"? Surely you jest.

The term "actually useful" comes closer to the reality. It has situational usefulness, and it is a feat that can affect combat, but in terms of raw power scale, there are any number of current Open feats that make it look like a Yugo next to a Ferrari.
copper_wyrmling
02-08-07, 02:32 PM Mass Cure Serious Wounds and Mass Inflict Serious Wounds come to mind as reasonable same-level substitutes that don't have the instakill cheese associated with them.

Thankfully, Dictum and Word of Chaos aren't involved in major templates.

For Blasphemy, Mass Inflict Serious is a fair replacement: same level spell, area effect as well.
For Holy Word, Mass Cure Serious, same reasoning.

Since Dictum and Word of Chaos are Law/Chaos spells, perhaps something not so much on the Good/Evil spectrum. Greater Bestow Curse comes to mind, Brilliant Blade, Mass Spell Resistance, or possibly (NONC) radiant assault or mass restoration.

There you go.

Summon Monster VII or VIII (good creatures only, evil creatures only, lawful creatures only, chaotic creatures only) might be an option for the domains - it would be nice for it to be a spell with an alignment descriptor so the +1 caster level still applies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cycloptic_squirrel 02-08-07, 02:30 AM	More of a query: why wasn't blashemey and holy word moved to closed access? I've heard nothing positive about these spells except for when they were obviously being abused. I don't think of these spells when I think iconic D&D. Some regions authors/players already aren't using them, so why not ban them? I'd appreciate any insight on the situation.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 02:33 AM	More of a query: why wasn't blashemey and holy word moved to closed access? I've heard nothing positive about these spells except for when they were obviously being abused. I don't think of these spells when I think iconic D&D. Some regions authors/players already aren't using them, so why not ban them? I'd appreciate any insight on the situation. They're banning the Divine Spellpower feat instead. That leaves the problem of Crack Beads and other caster level boosting options to abuse the spells, but still... I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB (which is where blasphemy and holy word come from), despite the fact that they already did just that for Disjunction and Permanency. We'll have to wait on the Dispel Confusion (which was supposed to be up by now) to know for sure.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-08-07, 02:50 AM	They're banning the Divine Spellpower feat instead. That leaves the problem of Crack Beads and other caster level boosting options to abuse the spells, but still... I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB Agreed. D. Spellpower doesn't affect most of the author tricks that scare me. I don't think Spellpower was particularly broken if Holy Word was gone, but that might just be my opinion. We'll have to wait on the Dispel Confusion (which was supposed to be up by now) to know for sure. C'mon Bob, be nice. Everyone on the circle are volunteers, which doesn't give an excuse for poor performance or repeatedly missed deadlines (neither of which has happened IMO), but it does mean that we could cut them a little more slack than we would if we were a paying customer. I appreciate that you feel strongly about the campaign and want your opinions heard (I agree with most of what you say) but snide comments aren't the best way to go about it. The circle's descisions aren't made to screw us over, but to enhance the campaign and everybody's enjoyment (either that or I'm a big sucker :( ). So let's tell them why they're wrong for this (and the polymorph thing), but I'm pretty sure if we do it nicely, they'll be more apt to listen.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 08:59 AM	C'mon Bob, be nice. Everyone on the circle are volunteers, which doesn't give an excuse for poor performance or repeatedly missed deadlines (neither of which has happened IMO), but it does mean that we could cut them a little more slack than we would if we were a paying customer. I appreciate that you feel strongly about the campaign and want your opinions heard (I agree with most of what you say) but snide comments aren't the best way to go about it. The circle's descisions aren't made to screw us over, but to enhance the campaign and everybody's enjoyment (either that or I'm a big sucker :( ). So let's tell them why they're wrong for this (and the polymorph thing), but I'm pretty sure if we do it nicely, they'll be more apt to listen. I don't blame Britt for the DC not being up. I trust him that he sent it in. I blame WotC's web department for not getting it up. I'm just annoyed that the meaningful discussion period (since Britt asked that we discuss this after the DC went up) for these topics is going to be shortened by the fact that WotC didn't get the Dispel Confusion up.
Itsa_Trika 02-08-07, 10:46 AM	They're banning the Divine Spellpower feat instead. That leaves the problem of Crack Beads and other caster level boosting options to abuse the spells, but still... I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB (which is where blasphemy and holy word come from), despite the fact that they already did just that for Disjunction and Permanency. We'll have to wait on the Dispel Confusion (which was supposed to be up by now) to know for sure. I've lost count how many times you've made this assertion in so many different threads. I can attest as a player, judge, and former campaign administrator that are far more uses for DMM/DSP than just Holy Word and Blasphemy. I've seen some casters who do not even cast spells without first spinning up their level. There are many spells that are affected by these feats that adversely affect the balance and the play of the game, not just Holy Word and Blasphemy.
CSHunt68 02-08-07, 10:48 AM	Such as?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 10:55 AM	I've lost count how many times you've made this assertion in so many different threads. I can attest as a player, judge, and former campaign administrator that are far more uses for DMM/DSP than just Holy Word and Blasphemy. I've seen some casters who do not even cast spells without first spinning up their level. There are many spells that are affected by these feats that adversely affect the balance and the play of the game, not just Holy Word and Blasphemy. There are plenty of other spells that benefit from DSP, but none so much as holy word/blasphemy. Sure, Divine Power gives you more bab, better chances with dispel magic, few extra damage dice from attack spells, and increased durations all around...Though I am pleased with the inclusion of Divine Ward and Sacred Healing from PHB 2. Divine Ward lets you mimic DMM:Reach on your allies...And Sacred Healing is an extra +2 to stack with Augment Healing...
Itsa_Trika 02-08-07, 10:57 AM	Such as? Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, and Barkskin to name three.
CSHunt68 02-08-07, 10:59 AM	In what way does bumping those spells up three levels (or thereabouts) "adversely affect the balance and play of the game"? Actually, let me answer that myself. It doesn't. You're talking about a slight increase in duration, and (not quite) a +1 bump. In that respect, we should ban Inspirational Boost, for the same reason. (And because almost every Bard now takes it, de rigeur.)
Timlagor 02-08-07, 11:12 AM	Firstly DMM is a completely different animal to DSP and is undeniably broken. DSP's benefit isn't massive on any particular spell (at lower levels) but, if you have a good Charisma, you can do it all day with no risk at all and it will add up. Meanwhile the cost is nearly zero (once you have the Feat) since 90%+ of the time you wouldn't be using those Turn Attempts at all. DSP was definitely something that every (non-DMM) cleric should have -to the point where dumping charisma was no longer an option for 'optimisation'. With PHB2 in the game this is no longer the case as there are now plenty of other good Feats to use on the TAs. Irrespective of DSP I'd be glad to see the back of the Holy Word class spells. There is no way to get a BAB higher than your class level.
ranagrande 02-08-07, 11:13 AM	I don't mind seeing DMM and DSP get Closed at all. However, I do think that Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos still need to be Closed as well.
CSHunt68 02-08-07, 11:24 AM	Firstly DMM is a completely different animal to DSP and is undeniably broken. I deny it. Just because you say it's "undeniably broken" doesn't make it so. :) DSP's benefit isn't massive on any particular spell (at lower levels) but, if you have a good Charisma, you can do it all day with no risk at all and it will add up. Meanwhile the cost is nearly zero (once you have the Feat) since 90%+ of the time you wouldn't be using those Turn Attempts at all. You can't do it all day with no risk at all. Unless you've spent even more Feats (one or more Extra Turnings) to have 10+ turn attempts. As for the cost, it costs you Turn Attempts, as you've noted. Your argument seems to hold the position that Turning is, in and of itself, useless (but your argument also weakens the case for the necessity of ALL Divine Feats). This is why the developers started making other uses for those attempts. DSP is one of them. DSP was definitely something that every (non-DMM) cleric should have -to the point where dumping charisma was no longer an option for 'optimisation'. With PHB2 in the game this is no longer the case as there are now plenty of other good Feats to use on the TAs. This isn't a particularly good argument, although it may go to the point of the whole banning issue. It doesn't work for Magic Missile, or Inspirational Boost, or Extra Rage, or Power Attack, or Natural Spell, or anything else that's taken almost by default by iconics. Just because something is popular, doesn't automatically imply that it's broken. I've seen far more Clerics without DSP than Bards without Inspirational Boost or Druids without Natural Spell. FAR more.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:34 AM	Firstly DMM is a completely different animal to DSP and is undeniably broken. DSP's benefit isn't massive on any particular spell (at lower levels) but, if you have a good Charisma, you can do it all day with no risk at all and it will add up. Meanwhile the cost is nearly zero (once you have the Feat) since 90%+ of the time you wouldn't be using those Turn Attempts at all. DSP was definitely something that every (non-DMM) cleric should have -to the point where dumping charisma was no longer an option for 'optimisation'. With PHB2 in the game this is no longer the case as there are now plenty of other good Feats to use on the TAs. Irrespective of DSP I'd be glad to see the back of the Holy Word class spells. There is no way to get a BAB higher than your class level. I know plenty of 8-CHA Clerics who don't use Divine feats at all. They're still quite effective, they just use different feats. It wasn't a "mandatory" thing by any means.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:37 AM	This isn't a particularly good argument, although it may go to the point of the whole banning issue. It doesn't work for Magic Missile, or Inspirational Boost, or Extra Rage, or Power Attack, or Natural Spell, or anything else that's taken almost by default by iconics. Just because something is popular, doesn't automatically imply that it's broken. I've seen far more Clerics without DSP than Bards without Inspirational Boost or Druids without Natural Spell. FAR more. Well stated. Of the Clerics I know, DSP was taken by perhaps 15% of them. Far more went for DMM, which is admittedly far harder to justify saving (I'd prefer it be NONC rather than Closed, however). One of the big problems I have is that the Circle lumped DSP and DMM together to attack them, while leaving in and adding a ton of other "Divine" feats to use Turn Attempts on.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:41 AM	As for the cost, it costs you Turn Attempts, as you've noted. Your argument seems to hold the position that Turning is, in and of itself, useless (but your argument also weakens the case for the necessity of ALL Divine Feats). This is why the developers started making other uses for those attempts. DSP is one of them. Actually, WotC's internal design documents have shown that Turning Undead was never intended to last, without serious feat/PrC investment, into high levels. This is a function of the fact that hit dice per CR just advance too bloody fast, the moment you advance any undead by hit dice they pretty much become unturnable by default (a CR 10 HD-advanced undead in an APL 10 encounter, that's an even-with-APL CR, probably has 18 HD plus Turn Resistance and is unturnable even by a Radiant Servant). Divine feats were the counter for this, to give clerics something - anything - to do with the only class feature they get during their entire evolution.
MatteBlack 02-08-07, 11:59 AM	I think the "reason" is that they claim they can't "ban" spells that come out of the PHB (which is where blasphemy and holy word come from), despite the fact that they already did just that for Disjunction and Permanency. In general, I agree with the philosophy of sticking closer to the core books than the expanded range of materials. It is a minor effect in keeping down the cost of needed materials and, for the most part, the core rules are much better developed and test played. Perhaps, the spells are more the fault than the feat in this instance but, I don't feel there tendency to remain more to the core vision is one to be faulted or ridiculed. Lee
Madfox11 02-08-07, 12:05 PM	Do you have any GOOD suggestions on replacements for these spells and remember that they are central to four domains and two major templates from the core books?
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 12:39 PM	Do you have any GOOD suggestions on replacements for these spells and remember that they are central to four domains and two major templates from the core books? Mass Cure Serious Wounds and Mass Inflict Serious Wounds come to mind as reasonable same-level substitutes that don't have the instakill cheese associated with them. Thankfully, Dictum and Word of Chaos aren't involved in major templates. For Blasphemy, Mass Inflict Serious is a fair replacement: same level spell, area effect as well. For Holy Word, Mass Cure Serious, same reasoning. Since Dictum and Word of Chaos are Law/Chaos spells, perhaps something not so much on the Good/Evil spectrum. Greater Bestow Curse comes to mind, Brilliant Blade, Mass Spell Resistance, or possibly (NONC) radiant assault or mass restoration. There you go.
Timlagor 02-08-07, 01:44 PM	This isn't a particularly good argument, although it may go to the point of the whole banning issue. Extra Rage takes a serious chunk out of the reasons for taking lots of Barbarian levels. Power Attack is too powerful. Natural Spell -well it's "all change" for druids right now so... Magic Missile isn't automatically taken by all arcanists so it's not relevant. I'm not claiming any of these should be banned but then I'm not claiming DSP should either: I'm jsut saying it's very powerful.
CSHunt68 02-08-07, 01:53 PM	Well, my point is _something_ is always going to be "very powerful" in relation to other things. That's just the way it goes.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 01:56 PM	Extra Rage takes a serious chunk out of the reasons for taking lots of Barbarian levels. Power Attack is too powerful. Natural Spell -well it's "all change" for druids right now so... Magic Missile isn't automatically taken by all arcanists so it's not relevant. I'm not claiming any of these should be banned but then I'm not claiming DSP should either: I'm jsut saying it's very powerful. "Very powerful"? Surely you jest. The term "actually useful" comes closer to the reality. It has situational usefulness, and it is a feat that can affect combat, but in terms of raw power scale, there are any number of current Open feats that make it look like a Yugo next to a Ferrari.
copper_wyrmling 02-08-07, 02:32 PM	Mass Cure Serious Wounds and Mass Inflict Serious Wounds come to mind as reasonable same-level substitutes that don't have the instakill cheese associated with them. Thankfully, Dictum and Word of Chaos aren't involved in major templates. For Blasphemy, Mass Inflict Serious is a fair replacement: same level spell, area effect as well. For Holy Word, Mass Cure Serious, same reasoning. Since Dictum and Word of Chaos are Law/Chaos spells, perhaps something not so much on the Good/Evil spectrum. Greater Bestow Curse comes to mind, Brilliant Blade, Mass Spell Resistance, or possibly (NONC) radiant assault or mass restoration. There you go. Summon Monster VII or VIII (good creatures only, evil creatures only, lawful creatures only, chaotic creatures only) might be an option for the domains - it would be nice for it to be a spell with an alignment descriptor so the +1 caster level still applies.