Hopefully for Dispel Confusion and a Yes! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hopefully for Dispel Confusion and a Yes! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
deputyguildmaster
01-08-08, 07:06 PM Hi all.

I recently came across a wand of Baleful Transposition. I've bought it and was wondering can I either learn the spell when I next go up in level or can I use it to make a scroll and then scribe it in to my spell book now or wait then till I go up in level?

I understand that it is not a written source but with it being a wand I can use scribe scroll to create a scroll copy thus being able to scribe it in to my spellbook.

I would like to know but I'm not under any illusion that this might be a no answer. Included are two extracts from the Dispel Confusions that provide info for the debate.

Dan Jewell (UK)

Dispel Confusion Vol. 3, No. 1January 2007

Q: The rules for MIC allow scrolls to be used while crafting. Can a wand be used?

A: Yes, you may use a wand as well. You must use one charge from the wand per day of crafting the item.

Dispel Confusion Vol. 2, No. 3September 2006

Q: If I find a spell in a spellbook, on a scroll, or in some other written form, do I have access to it?

A: If you find a spell on your spell list in a written item, once you purchase that item, you now have access to the spell. For example, if a sorcerer finds and purchases a spellbook with the spell snake’s swiftness in it, he may choose to learn the spell at his next available and valid opportunity. If there’s any question as to whether the spell is actually written on or in the purchasable item, it is not valid for this type of access. Valid examples include scrolls, spellbooks, tablets, and notes.

Q: I have a bard character. If I find a spellbook that contains sorcerer/wizard spells, and some of them are bard spells as well, does purchasing the spellbook give me access to those spells?

A: Yes. Even though you may not be able to cast the spells from the spellbook, as long as the spells are legible to the character, you have access to the spells that appear on that classes’ list.

Q: I understand now that I can get access to spells from written items. What happens if I lose the item, sell the item, or it is destroyed?

A: It depends on the spellcasting character’s class. Wizards and other spellcasters that prepare spells from a spellbook lose access to the spell, unless the spell has already been scribed into another written source, such as a spellbook. Clerics, druids, and other divine casters that prepare from a list do not lose access – once they’ve found and purchased the item, it is considered a known spell for purposes of preparing spells. Sorcerers, bards, and other arcane casters that spontaneously cast spells must have already added the spell to their list of spells known in order to continue to use the spell; otherwise, they lose access, and cannot add the spell unless they find access again.

Q: If I find a spellbook that has a spell that I want, do I need to purchase the whole spellbook to obtain access?

A: Yes. Any written items (spellbooks, scrolls, etc.) must be purchased at the full cost in order to obtain access to any spells or other options present in them.
magebeast
01-08-08, 07:42 PM As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping you from making a scroll and then scribing it into your book - but you need to keep ahold of the wand until it's scribed into your book because that wand is your access.

Otherwise, you can simply add it to your book as one of your "level up" spells when you level without turning it into a scroll.

Either way, once you've learned it you can sell the wand.
copperwyrmling
01-08-08, 08:02 PM As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping you from making a scroll and then scribing it into your book - but you need to keep ahold of the wand until it's scribed into your book because that wand is your access.

Otherwise, you can simply add it to your book as one of your "level up" spells when you level without turning it into a scroll.

Either way, once you've learned it you can sell the wand.

Magebeast, normally wands don't grant spell access - that's why the scribe scroll route is potentially interesting. Have a look in the Dispel Confusion deputyguildmaster cited:

"If you find a spell on your spell list in a written item, once you purchase that item, you now have access to the spell. For example, if a sorcerer finds and purchases a spellbook with the spell snake’s swiftness in it, he may choose to learn the spell at his next available and valid opportunity. If there’s any question as to whether the spell is actually written on or in the purchasable item, it is not valid for this type of access."

Wands are not written items, and hence do not grant spell access. My sorcerer also found access to a wand of baleful transposition, but it doesn't allow her to pick baleful transposition as one of her new spells-known. Her scroll of dragonskin, on the other hand, did allow her to choose it as a new spell known.
magebeast
01-08-08, 11:03 PM Hmm. I seem to remember seeing something to the effect that wands provide you with access. Weird.
Jay_Ibero_911
01-09-08, 12:02 AM So if you find a wand, you CAN use it to scribe scrolls or for other magic item creation, but you cannot then copy the scribed scroll into your spellbook to learn the spell with just the wand access? Just to clarify, there is no mechanical reason you couldn't, but purely LG access rules preventing the learning of the spell?
Mattastrophic
01-09-08, 01:06 AM Actually, it doesn't work:

LGCS: "You can scribe scrolls, craft wands, and brew potions for spells you can cast."

And since activating a wand isn't the same as casting, it doesn't work.

-Matt suddenly wonders if he can scribe scrolls of stuff he Limited Wishes for.
deputyguildmaster
01-09-08, 11:05 AM I disagree with your interpretation of the wording of the [I]you can cast [/I, from the LGCS as I believe this is meant that as long as the spell is on your spell list. Otherwise using wands for other magic item creation would also be as flawed.

Dan
Jay_Ibero_911
01-09-08, 12:21 PM I disagree with your interpretation of the wording of the [I]you can cast [/I, from the LGCS as I believe this is meant that as long as the spell is on your spell list. Otherwise using wands for other magic item creation would also be as flawed.

Dan

That's not necessarily true either, because you can craft using UMD to activate the requisite scrolls/wands...
Howie23
01-09-08, 12:42 PM Hi all.

I recently came across a wand of Baleful Transposition. I've bought it and was wondering can I either learn the spell when I next go up in level or can I use it to make a scroll and then scribe it in to my spell book now or wait then till I go up in level?

I understand that it is not a written source but with it being a wand I can use scribe scroll to create a scroll copy thus being able to scribe it in to my spellbook.

A couple of structuring comments:

1) The process for trying to get something into Dispel Confusion is to ask the question in the big sticky thread. That thread is then culled for responses that go into Dispel Confusion. The process may have slowed a bit since the big sticky thread made its debut, but that's where this should eventually go.

2) LG uses the core rules for the process of magic item creation, with a couple of exceptions necessary for the nature of the campaign.

2a) LG has campaign specific rules that identify what items you can craft (essentially, what do you know how to craft) and how to account for the logistics of the process.

2b) LG has campaign specific rules that prohibit cooperative crafting (this isn't really germaine to this conversation, but is here for completeness).

3) LG has campaign specific rules associated with adding spells to spellbooks or spells known.

Breaking down the posted questions (implied and stated) into components, I see three things to be addressed.

A) Can a wand be used to prepare a scroll? (This is related to item 2)

First off, this is a core rules question, not a campaign rules question. It therefore isn't the type of question that Circle addresses (but saying this often gets them to do so to spite me. :) ) The statement in DC that says wands can be used for crafting resulted from the removal of the campaign house rule that disallowed it. The DC merely reiterates the Core rule. So, what is the core rule about wands in crafting?

The core rule is on DMG p. 215. It relates to meeting the prerequisites to craft magic items. Wands may be used to satisfy the spell prerequisite needed to craft a magic item. The rule does not apply to wands, scrolls, and potions, because these items do not have spell prerequisites. Prerequisites are listed along with the item description. I suspect that this will get some flak, and it is probably the place to attack this position if you are so inclined.

You cannot use a wand to prepare a scroll. By core rules wands, potions, and scrolls are different than wonderous items, etc. They are spell storage devices that then vary in terms of what is needed to activate/use them. Review the PHB crafting feats and compare the spell storage device feats to the others. Potion, Scroll, Wand: you must know the spell. CWI, CA&A, etc: You must meet the prerequisites.

B) What campaign specific rules are needed to scribe a scroll (This is related to item 2a above).
You need Scribe Scroll, and you need to be able to cast the spell. This is more than the core rule (you must know the spell), but it also captures the need to cast it; a wizard can know a spell (in his spellbook), but be unable to cast it if it is too high of a level. This also replaces a non-core rule in prior editions of the LGCS, that you needed AR access to craft potions.

You really do need to be able to cast it, not just appear on the class spell list; this doesn't contradict other statements about using wands and scrolls in meeting prereqs. You need to be able to cast for wands/potions/scrolls, you can use wands/scrolls/staffs/spell-like abilities for items with prereqs.

C) If I were to make that scroll, do I then have access to copy/learn that spell? (this is related to item 3 above)

No. You still have to satisfy the rules about obtaining access to and purchasing the source document. CopperWyrmling highlighted the appropriate text.

David
-no one official
chesspiece
01-09-08, 04:47 PM I agree with David’s post regarding the difference between making Scrolls and Wonderous Items. However, I still wonder what the true intent is for gaining access to spells for a spellbook.

If a PC buys a NONC scroll (gains access), can that PC now copy the spell from another PC’s spellbook - to avoid wasting the scroll?

If a PC gains access to a NONC spell from purchasing a wand, can they copy this from another PC’s spellbook? IOW, does possession of the NONC rules item (the spell) in a non-text format (wand) make all aspects of that spell Open? That would allow them to circumvent the typical limitations on copying NONC spells. That would also mean a sorcerer could chose to know that spell when levelling up.
copperwyrmling
01-09-08, 04:51 PM If a PC gains access to a NONC spell from purchasing a wand, can they copy this from another PC’s spellbook? IOW, does possession of the NONC rules item (the spell) in a non-text format (wand) make all aspects of that spell Open? That would allow them to circumvent the typical limitations on copying NONC spells. That would also mean a sorcerer could chose to know that spell when levelling up.

Where are you getting the idea that having an item that contains a spell in a non-text format makes the spell Open for you? I think the Dispel Confusion quoted above makes it pretty clear that it doesn't.
JamesMaissen
01-10-08, 12:01 AM If a PC buys a NONC scroll (gains access), can that PC now copy the spell from another PC’s spellbook - to avoid wasting the scroll?

I could be wrong, but *if* a spell is open to you then I believe that you could copy it from another PC's spellbook.

That would be reasonable, at least. The current wording might go against this, however.

-James
Hariman
01-13-08, 11:28 AM I could be wrong, but *if* a spell is open to you then I believe that you could copy it from another PC's spellbook.

That would be reasonable, at least. The current wording might go against this, however.

-James

Let's see.

Player 1 Finds access to "Persistent Blade", buys a scroll and adds it to his spellbook.

Player 2 also finds access to Persistent Blade and buys a scroll, BUT, he happens to meet Player 1 before using the scroll to add Persistent Blade to his spellbook.

Player 2 owns a scroll of persistent blade and thus the spell is "open access" for him.

Player 1 has already copied Persistent Blade into his spellbook, thus persistent blade is open to him as well.

Under these circumstances, Player 2 may copy Persistent Blade from Player 1's spellbook.

The greatest hurdle is that both players need open access to the spell in question.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deputyguildmaster 01-08-08, 07:06 PM	Hi all. I recently came across a wand of Baleful Transposition. I've bought it and was wondering can I either learn the spell when I next go up in level or can I use it to make a scroll and then scribe it in to my spell book now or wait then till I go up in level? I understand that it is not a written source but with it being a wand I can use scribe scroll to create a scroll copy thus being able to scribe it in to my spellbook. I would like to know but I'm not under any illusion that this might be a no answer. Included are two extracts from the Dispel Confusions that provide info for the debate. Dan Jewell (UK) Dispel Confusion Vol. 3, No. 1January 2007 Q: The rules for MIC allow scrolls to be used while crafting. Can a wand be used? A: Yes, you may use a wand as well. You must use one charge from the wand per day of crafting the item. Dispel Confusion Vol. 2, No. 3September 2006 Q: If I find a spell in a spellbook, on a scroll, or in some other written form, do I have access to it? A: If you find a spell on your spell list in a written item, once you purchase that item, you now have access to the spell. For example, if a sorcerer finds and purchases a spellbook with the spell snake’s swiftness in it, he may choose to learn the spell at his next available and valid opportunity. If there’s any question as to whether the spell is actually written on or in the purchasable item, it is not valid for this type of access. Valid examples include scrolls, spellbooks, tablets, and notes. Q: I have a bard character. If I find a spellbook that contains sorcerer/wizard spells, and some of them are bard spells as well, does purchasing the spellbook give me access to those spells? A: Yes. Even though you may not be able to cast the spells from the spellbook, as long as the spells are legible to the character, you have access to the spells that appear on that classes’ list. Q: I understand now that I can get access to spells from written items. What happens if I lose the item, sell the item, or it is destroyed? A: It depends on the spellcasting character’s class. Wizards and other spellcasters that prepare spells from a spellbook lose access to the spell, unless the spell has already been scribed into another written source, such as a spellbook. Clerics, druids, and other divine casters that prepare from a list do not lose access – once they’ve found and purchased the item, it is considered a known spell for purposes of preparing spells. Sorcerers, bards, and other arcane casters that spontaneously cast spells must have already added the spell to their list of spells known in order to continue to use the spell; otherwise, they lose access, and cannot add the spell unless they find access again. Q: If I find a spellbook that has a spell that I want, do I need to purchase the whole spellbook to obtain access? A: Yes. Any written items (spellbooks, scrolls, etc.) must be purchased at the full cost in order to obtain access to any spells or other options present in them.
magebeast 01-08-08, 07:42 PM	As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping you from making a scroll and then scribing it into your book - but you need to keep ahold of the wand until it's scribed into your book because that wand is your access. Otherwise, you can simply add it to your book as one of your "level up" spells when you level without turning it into a scroll. Either way, once you've learned it you can sell the wand.
copperwyrmling 01-08-08, 08:02 PM	As far as I can tell, there's nothing stopping you from making a scroll and then scribing it into your book - but you need to keep ahold of the wand until it's scribed into your book because that wand is your access. Otherwise, you can simply add it to your book as one of your "level up" spells when you level without turning it into a scroll. Either way, once you've learned it you can sell the wand. Magebeast, normally wands don't grant spell access - that's why the scribe scroll route is potentially interesting. Have a look in the Dispel Confusion deputyguildmaster cited: "If you find a spell on your spell list in a written item, once you purchase that item, you now have access to the spell. For example, if a sorcerer finds and purchases a spellbook with the spell snake’s swiftness in it, he may choose to learn the spell at his next available and valid opportunity. If there’s any question as to whether the spell is actually written on or in the purchasable item, it is not valid for this type of access." Wands are not written items, and hence do not grant spell access. My sorcerer also found access to a wand of baleful transposition, but it doesn't allow her to pick baleful transposition as one of her new spells-known. Her scroll of dragonskin, on the other hand, did allow her to choose it as a new spell known.
magebeast 01-08-08, 11:03 PM	Hmm. I seem to remember seeing something to the effect that wands provide you with access. Weird.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-09-08, 12:02 AM	So if you find a wand, you CAN use it to scribe scrolls or for other magic item creation, but you cannot then copy the scribed scroll into your spellbook to learn the spell with just the wand access? Just to clarify, there is no mechanical reason you couldn't, but purely LG access rules preventing the learning of the spell?
Mattastrophic 01-09-08, 01:06 AM	Actually, it doesn't work: LGCS: "You can scribe scrolls, craft wands, and brew potions for spells you can cast." And since activating a wand isn't the same as casting, it doesn't work. -Matt suddenly wonders if he can scribe scrolls of stuff he Limited Wishes for.
deputyguildmaster 01-09-08, 11:05 AM	I disagree with your interpretation of the wording of the [I]you can cast [/I, from the LGCS as I believe this is meant that as long as the spell is on your spell list. Otherwise using wands for other magic item creation would also be as flawed. Dan
Jay_Ibero_911 01-09-08, 12:21 PM	I disagree with your interpretation of the wording of the [I]you can cast [/I, from the LGCS as I believe this is meant that as long as the spell is on your spell list. Otherwise using wands for other magic item creation would also be as flawed. Dan That's not necessarily true either, because you can craft using UMD to activate the requisite scrolls/wands...
Howie23 01-09-08, 12:42 PM	Hi all. I recently came across a wand of Baleful Transposition. I've bought it and was wondering can I either learn the spell when I next go up in level or can I use it to make a scroll and then scribe it in to my spell book now or wait then till I go up in level? I understand that it is not a written source but with it being a wand I can use scribe scroll to create a scroll copy thus being able to scribe it in to my spellbook. A couple of structuring comments: 1) The process for trying to get something into Dispel Confusion is to ask the question in the big sticky thread. That thread is then culled for responses that go into Dispel Confusion. The process may have slowed a bit since the big sticky thread made its debut, but that's where this should eventually go. 2) LG uses the core rules for the process of magic item creation, with a couple of exceptions necessary for the nature of the campaign. 2a) LG has campaign specific rules that identify what items you can craft (essentially, what do you know how to craft) and how to account for the logistics of the process. 2b) LG has campaign specific rules that prohibit cooperative crafting (this isn't really germaine to this conversation, but is here for completeness). 3) LG has campaign specific rules associated with adding spells to spellbooks or spells known. Breaking down the posted questions (implied and stated) into components, I see three things to be addressed. A) Can a wand be used to prepare a scroll? (This is related to item 2) First off, this is a core rules question, not a campaign rules question. It therefore isn't the type of question that Circle addresses (but saying this often gets them to do so to spite me. :) ) The statement in DC that says wands can be used for crafting resulted from the removal of the campaign house rule that disallowed it. The DC merely reiterates the Core rule. So, what is the core rule about wands in crafting? The core rule is on DMG p. 215. It relates to meeting the prerequisites to craft magic items. Wands may be used to satisfy the spell prerequisite needed to craft a magic item. The rule does not apply to wands, scrolls, and potions, because these items do not have spell prerequisites. Prerequisites are listed along with the item description. I suspect that this will get some flak, and it is probably the place to attack this position if you are so inclined. You cannot use a wand to prepare a scroll. By core rules wands, potions, and scrolls are different than wonderous items, etc. They are spell storage devices that then vary in terms of what is needed to activate/use them. Review the PHB crafting feats and compare the spell storage device feats to the others. Potion, Scroll, Wand: you must know the spell. CWI, CA&A, etc: You must meet the prerequisites. B) What campaign specific rules are needed to scribe a scroll (This is related to item 2a above). You need Scribe Scroll, and you need to be able to cast the spell. This is more than the core rule (you must know the spell), but it also captures the need to cast it; a wizard can know a spell (in his spellbook), but be unable to cast it if it is too high of a level. This also replaces a non-core rule in prior editions of the LGCS, that you needed AR access to craft potions. You really do need to be able to cast it, not just appear on the class spell list; this doesn't contradict other statements about using wands and scrolls in meeting prereqs. You need to be able to cast for wands/potions/scrolls, you can use wands/scrolls/staffs/spell-like abilities for items with prereqs. C) If I were to make that scroll, do I then have access to copy/learn that spell? (this is related to item 3 above) No. You still have to satisfy the rules about obtaining access to and purchasing the source document. CopperWyrmling highlighted the appropriate text. David -no one official
chesspiece 01-09-08, 04:47 PM	I agree with David’s post regarding the difference between making Scrolls and Wonderous Items. However, I still wonder what the true intent is for gaining access to spells for a spellbook. If a PC buys a NONC scroll (gains access), can that PC now copy the spell from another PC’s spellbook - to avoid wasting the scroll? If a PC gains access to a NONC spell from purchasing a wand, can they copy this from another PC’s spellbook? IOW, does possession of the NONC rules item (the spell) in a non-text format (wand) make all aspects of that spell Open? That would allow them to circumvent the typical limitations on copying NONC spells. That would also mean a sorcerer could chose to know that spell when levelling up.
copperwyrmling 01-09-08, 04:51 PM	If a PC gains access to a NONC spell from purchasing a wand, can they copy this from another PC’s spellbook? IOW, does possession of the NONC rules item (the spell) in a non-text format (wand) make all aspects of that spell Open? That would allow them to circumvent the typical limitations on copying NONC spells. That would also mean a sorcerer could chose to know that spell when levelling up. Where are you getting the idea that having an item that contains a spell in a non-text format makes the spell Open for you? I think the Dispel Confusion quoted above makes it pretty clear that it doesn't.
JamesMaissen 01-10-08, 12:01 AM	If a PC buys a NONC scroll (gains access), can that PC now copy the spell from another PC’s spellbook - to avoid wasting the scroll? I could be wrong, but if a spell is open to you then I believe that you could copy it from another PC's spellbook. That would be reasonable, at least. The current wording might go against this, however. -James
Hariman 01-13-08, 11:28 AM	I could be wrong, but if a spell is open to you then I believe that you could copy it from another PC's spellbook. That would be reasonable, at least. The current wording might go against this, however. -James Let's see. Player 1 Finds access to "Persistent Blade", buys a scroll and adds it to his spellbook. Player 2 also finds access to Persistent Blade and buys a scroll, BUT, he happens to meet Player 1 before using the scroll to add Persistent Blade to his spellbook. Player 2 owns a scroll of persistent blade and thus the spell is "open access" for him. Player 1 has already copied Persistent Blade into his spellbook, thus persistent blade is open to him as well. Under these circumstances, Player 2 may copy Persistent Blade from Player 1's spellbook. The greatest hurdle is that both players need open access to the spell in question.