Post/Author/DateTime	Post
evilaustintom 03-09-07, 08:05 PM	While I haven't DMed a table with this, I've run into a few players at LG cons who have used this tactic. I argued with them that it was wrong, but then going back to the DMG, I have developed a shadow of a doubt. One of the Horizon Walker's higher abilities is to Dimension Door at Will (every 1d4 rounds). Is this usable on the Prime Material Plane? I initially thought you couldn't (and I still think it, mostly). However, there are points for and against. For - 1. Most, if not all, of the class abilities work wherever the PC is. 2. The beginning of the class description when talking about their abilities states how the modifiers are usable everywhere, regardless if the PC is in the terrain in question. Against - 1. Addendum to #2 above - it says 'MODIFIERS'...or a similar term referring to numerical modifiers (I don't have the book in front of me, so forgive me if I'm off on my quote). So you would get the Move Silently bonus from being a master of the forest (or plains - I can't remember which), regardless if you are in the forest or not. It doesn't say anything about other abilities. 2. The ability to Dimension Door at will specifically states something along the lines of "...Using the power of the morphic planes like limbo, the plane of shadow, etc..." So wouldn't you need to BE on a morphic plane for this to be allowed? Another for - 3. Again regarding the 'usable anywhere' argument...if you have darkvision from the class, that is usable anywhere. So why not the d-door ability? 4. It doesn't list all of the morphic planes, so isn't that a DM ruling situation? Would they just go with the morphic plane trait? I'm still not 100% on it, but it seems quite powerful if it WAS allowed on the Prime (or any other non-morphic plane). I tend to rule on the conservative with this, I thought I would throw this out to the teeming LG masses to digest... Tom Thowe
Jay_Ibero_911 03-09-07, 08:14 PM	While I haven't DMed a table with this, I've run into a few players at LG cons who have used this tactic. I argued with them that it was wrong, but then going back to the DMG, I have developed a shadow of a doubt. One of the Horizon Walker's higher abilities is to Dimension Door at Will (every 1d4 rounds). Is this usable on the Prime Material Plane? I initially thought you couldn't (and I still think it, mostly). However, there are points for and against. For - 1. Most, if not all, of the class abilities work wherever the PC is. 2. The beginning of the class description when talking about their abilities states how the modifiers are usable everywhere, regardless if the PC is in the terrain in question. Against - 1. Addendum to #2 above - it says 'MODIFIERS'...or a similar term referring to numerical modifiers (I don't have the book in front of me, so forgive me if I'm off on my quote). So you would get the Move Silently bonus from being a master of the forest (or plains - I can't remember which), regardless if you are in the forest or not. It doesn't say anything about other abilities. 2. The ability to Dimension Door at will specifically states something along the lines of "...Using the power of the morphic planes like limbo, the plane of shadow, etc..." So wouldn't you need to BE on a morphic plane for this to be allowed? Another for - 3. Again regarding the 'usable anywhere' argument...if you have darkvision from the class, that is usable anywhere. So why not the d-door ability? 4. It doesn't list all of the morphic planes, so isn't that a DM ruling situation? Would they just go with the morphic plane trait? I'm still not 100% on it, but it seems quite powerful if it WAS allowed on the Prime (or any other non-morphic plane). I tend to rule on the conservative with this, I thought I would throw this out to the teeming LG masses to digest... Tom Thowe It's a convenient ability...but hardly broken to any extent. Only useable once every 1d4 rounds, and it's still a standard action and you still can't take any actions after you d-door. It really only provides a convenient escape and mobility tool, but that's about all. It also takes 6 levels of a relatively underpowered prestige class to get anyway. None of this has anything to do with the argument at hand, but I'm just pointing out that it is not unbalanced in any way. Also, given that all the other abilities are useable anywhere, I'd say this one should be as well....
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 08:16 PM	I always thought it worked. It seems like each terrain mastery gave 2 benefits. One benefit was universal, while the other was tied to the plane, which is the same for the Shifting planar mastery.
evilaustintom 03-09-07, 08:44 PM	"...Not unbalanced in any way?" While I admit that a number of the other class abilities are not super impressive, I generally think that a class ability that lets you do a 4th level spell-like ability at will is fairly tough. D-door the fighter right into combat so he can take a full attack action...d-door away from combat (useful for archers, which rangers commonly are)...get your fellow party members into or out of any place they want to go, without having to worry about spending too many spells just by *bamphing* back and forth... Yes, it's not an attack action. Still, I don't think it should be discounted as not being powerful in any way. In any case, I just wondered how other people tended to rule on this. Tom Thowe
Jay_Ibero_911 03-09-07, 08:57 PM	"...Not unbalanced in any way?" While I admit that a number of the other class abilities are not super impressive, I generally think that a class ability that lets you do a 4th level spell-like ability at will is fairly tough. D-door the fighter right into combat so he can take a full attack action...d-door away from combat (useful for archers, which rangers commonly are)...get your fellow party members into or out of any place they want to go, without having to worry about spending too many spells just by *bamphing* back and forth... Yes, it's not an attack action. Still, I don't think it should be discounted as not being powerful in any way. In any case, I just wondered how other people tended to rule on this. Tom Thowe The problem here is the one using the D-door is SUPPOSED TO BE THE FIGHTER....with likely full bab, they want to be attacking instead of spending actions poofing somewhere...It's a convenience and little more. It does very little to make the party more offensively powerful. I'm not saying it's meaningless, indeed, it is a very nice ability to have. But asside from increasing mobility in tricky places, it doesn't do much. As far as where/when they can use the ability.... Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not. They get all their terrain mastery bonuses whereever they go. The only part that is actually terrain dependant is the attack and damage bonuses, and those are tied the the natural terrain of a given creature, not the terrain he is currently in.
evilaustintom 03-09-07, 10:34 PM	Here, I have my DMG. Let me post the relevant sections that seem suggest one interpretation or another. This may help with the debate - it is all on Pg 190 in the DMG… Terrain Mastery [2nd paragraph]: “Horizon Walkers take their terrain mastery wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not. For example, a horizon walker who selects desert terrain mastery is immune to fatigue even if she’s underground, in the mountains, or in a city.” Planar Terrain Mastery: “…Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery…” [Example 1] Fiery (Planar): “This kind of planar terrain mastery provides you with resistance to fire 20. You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders and elementals with the fire subtype.” [Example 2] Weightless (Planar): “You gain a +30-foot bonus to your fly speed on planes with no gravity or subjective gravity, such as the Astral Plane or the Elemental Plane of Air (see Chapter 5). You gain a +1 insight on attack and damage rolls against creature native to the Astral Plane, the Elemental Plane of Air, and the Ethereal Plane, such as githyanki and air elementals. (A creature native to a particular plane has this fact designated in its Environment entry in the Monster Manual.) [Example 3] Shifting (Planar): “You have the supernatural ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo and the Plane of Shadow to travel faster. You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination, giving you the spell-like ability to use dimension door (as the spell cast at your character level) once every 1d4 rounds. You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders and elementals native to a shifting plane, such as slaadi and shadow mastiffs. Conclusions: 1. You clearly get the “+1” bonuses with each Example, no matter where the PC is. 2. You clearly get fire resistance 20, no matter where the PC is. 3. You clearly get +30’ fly speed only on certain planes. Still wondering: Do you get dimension door on any plane, or just planes with ‘ever-shifting natures’? Tom Thowe
King Kashue 03-09-07, 11:08 PM	Terrain Mastery [2nd paragraph]: “Horizon Walkers take their terrain mastery wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not. For example, a horizon walker who selects desert terrain mastery is immune to fatigue even if she’s underground, in the mountains, or in a city.” Planar Terrain Mastery: “…Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery…” [Example 2] Weightless (Planar): “You gain a +30-foot bonus to your fly speed on planes with no gravity or subjective gravity, such as the Astral Plane or the Elemental Plane of Air (see Chapter 5). [Example 3] Shifting (Planar): “You have the supernatural ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo and the Plane of Shadow to travel faster. You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination, giving you the spell-like ability to use dimension door (as the spell cast at your character level) once every 1d4 rounds. You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders and elementals native to a shifting plane, such as slaadi and shadow mastiffs. Conclusions: 1. You clearly get the “+1” bonuses with each Example, no matter where the PC is. 2. You clearly get fire resistance 20, no matter where the PC is. 3. You clearly get +30’ fly speed only on certain planes. Still wondering: Do you get dimension door on any plane, or just planes with ‘ever-shifting natures’? Tom Thowe You get it on all planes because it doesn't say "this only works on shifting planes"... Weightless is the only ability that limits itself to a given plane, every other ability is usable everywhere. Since the explicit text says "they retain their terrain mastery...whether they're actually in the terrain or not", then the Weightless terrain ability is the exception to the explicit rule, not the model... The horizon walker is "using" those planes to travel, just like someone casting teleport uses the astral plane, or someone blinking uses the ethereal, or someone using shadow walk uses the plane of shadow... And I agree with Jay that this is not "broken" or "unbalanced"...The archer DDooring a fighter into combat? He gives up his attack for that round and puts himself in melee (or near melee), that's a steep price for giving the fighter two iterative attacks. If every ability of the class were like that, you'd have a much stronger argument, but the first five levels are pretty weak (though cool, imo) so you've got to be committed to a sub-optimal class in order to get to the nifty stuff (which is how prestige classes should be, all the cool stuff in the first three levels is bollocks).
King Kashue 03-09-07, 11:10 PM	I always thought it worked. It seems like each terrain mastery gave 2 benefits. One benefit was universal, while the other was tied to the plane, which is the same for the Shifting planar mastery. Nope, read the abilities. Weightless is the only one restricted to a given type of plane. Everything else is universal, even the attack bonuses, in that you get them against that type of creature anywhere, not just in their home terrain.
Arvagor 03-09-07, 11:19 PM	There's two reasons why I feel the ability works... 1) "You have the supernatural ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo and the Plane of Shadow to travel faster". The Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Material Plane -- that is, a link can be created between the Material and Shadow at any point on either plane. The DMG and MotP also state, "It [Shadow] overlaps the Material Plane much as the Ethereal Plane does, so a planar traveler can use the Plane of Shadow to cover great distances quickly." One could presume that the Horizon Walker's ability might be using the Plane of Shadow to enable his movement, much in the same way a wizard might use shadow walk to get from point A to point B. 2) While it may not seem like a big deal compared to places like the Plane of Shadow or Limbo, the Material Plane is morphic ("alterable morphic"), just not wildly so.
zoinks69 03-10-07, 02:31 AM	For the party support guy, it's a really really nice ability provided you can bring buddies along (don't have the books handy, but if it's like the spell...) For the party tank, it's certainly a no-no -- giving up feats, bab (I think), etc through 5 painful levels (though tirelessness is OK) to get a "get out of jail free" (or "get into jail free" if you feel like d-dooring into position to get full attacks taken on you and/or opening charge lanes to your casters). On a side note -- how is the 1d4 adjudicated? I can't recall seeing a specific method -- do you roll d4 each time you use it, do you roll d4 when combat begins to determine how soon you can first use it, etc.? I ask partly in regards to this ability and partly in regards to other abilities that are in the same genre -- for instance Dragon Breath (the spell) lets you use it every d4 and I've always rolled the d4 after I used it the first time (though this is slightly different as I believe it specifies you gain the ability and then it "recharges" every d4).
King Kashue 03-10-07, 03:10 AM	On a side note -- how is the 1d4 adjudicated? I can't recall seeing a specific method -- do you roll d4 each time you use it That's the standard method for any such ability. If you haven't used it in 4+ rounds, assume it's "up". When you use it, roll 1d4, 1 it's up next round, etc...
Timlagor 03-10-07, 11:12 AM	It is a very nice ability indeed (even on a tank). However it is most definitely not 'broken'. I have seen it in action and only rarely is it significantly more useful than having a Wizard who can cast a couple of them. Let them have their toys I say :) I would most certainly allow it and expect it to be allowed to be used on the material plane. The only restriction I'd put would be in some weird planar effects or on some other plane that is somehow disconnected from all the shifting planes. I don't really know how the planes work but I'm aware that there are places with such weird effects. I'd expect the spell not to work in those places either but there could conceivably be a situation where the spell still worked but the ability didn't... I'd just be extremely surprised to encounter it.
thorinXXX 03-10-07, 12:06 PM	Just a note. It D-Door is SP not SU. That means that it provokes, can be interupted, and you need to make a concentration check to use it in a grapple. So, unless you put ranks into concentration, no auto escape from the T-Rex's gullet.:(
King Kashue 03-10-07, 02:08 PM	Just a note. It D-Door is SP not SU. That means that it provokes, can be interupted, and you need to make a concentration check to use it in a grapple. So, unless you put ranks into concentration, no auto escape from the T-Rex's gullet.:( Until you reach level 16 and the high level campaign, then you take the "Quicken Spell Like Ability Feat" :D
Timlagor 03-10-07, 03:08 PM	Until you reach level 16 and the high level campaign, then you take the "Quicken Spell Like Ability Feat" :D Oooh! Full Attack and then get out of reach :D
Jay_Ibero_911 03-10-07, 05:45 PM	Until you reach level 16 and the high level campaign, then you take the "Quicken Spell Like Ability Feat" :D While it's true that it doesn't provoke when quickened, the bad guys can still disrupt it with readied actions, and you still would need to concentrate if grappled or otherwise wrapped up...
King Kashue 03-10-07, 09:28 PM	While it's true that it doesn't provoke when quickened, the bad guys can still disrupt it with readied actions, and you still would need to concentrate if grappled or otherwise wrapped up... Looking at it, you're right (at least on the grapple)... Man that seems idiotic...
ShinAkuma2 03-11-07, 12:38 AM	While it's true that it doesn't provoke when quickened, the bad guys can still disrupt it with readied actions, and you still would need to concentrate if grappled or otherwise wrapped up... How will an enemy identify a Quickened SLA? No components, and it takes a blink of an eye to do...I don't think I'd allow it.
Arvagor 03-11-07, 12:43 AM	No components, and it takes a blink of an eye to do...I don't think I'd allow it. Especially since (Sp) are already purely mental actions. I always presumed that the ability to disrupt a (Sp) came from you taking a moment to concentrate on the ability, thereby dropping your guard just enough for the AoO. A quickened (Sp) barely requires any thought at all, so I'd tend to agree that you shouldn't be able to ready against it...
Japangirl 03-11-07, 03:35 AM	Spell like abilities still have verbal components and thus do not work in Silences. That means that you can ready even for Quickened spell-like abilities, since the person still has to say a word and you interrupt the speaking.
Franco Un-American 03-11-07, 04:08 AM	SLA's have no components. None. Including verbal.
ShinAkuma2 03-11-07, 04:11 AM	Spell like abilities still have verbal components and thus do not work in Silences. As per the DMG/SRD: A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.
Alpha_Nerd 03-11-07, 12:00 PM	If I had the +1 caster level Ioun Stone as a Horizon Walker, would it add to my caster level for that spell-like ability?
Timlagor 03-11-07, 12:37 PM	If I had the +1 caster level Ioun Stone as a Horizon Walker, would it add to my caster level for that spell-like ability? Given the investment involved I'd allow it.
King Kashue 03-11-07, 04:06 PM	If I had the +1 caster level Ioun Stone as a Horizon Walker, would it add to my caster level for that spell-like ability? Unfortunately, item bonuses don't count for prereqs when taking feats :(
Jay_Ibero_911 03-11-07, 04:16 PM	Unfortunately, item bonuses don't count for prereqs when taking feats :( Since when? You can use Guantlets of Ogre Power to qualify for power attack, you just can't use the feat if you no longer meet the pre-reqs.....Unless there was an FAQ on the topic...
King Kashue 03-11-07, 04:57 PM	Since when? You can use Guantlets of Ogre Power to qualify for power attack Says who? Not the PHB. The PHB says "Your character must have the indicated ability score" (PHB p.87) Having Gauntlets does not mean your character has a STR of 13, your character has STR 11, and an enhancement bonus of +2 to[/i] that ability score. That is not the same as an ability score of 13. The enhancement bonus is a "general bonus [b]to an ability score" (PHB p.308), it's not part of the ability score itself... Unless there was an FAQ on the topic... There doesn't need to be. The FAQ would have to allow it, since the PHB doesn't. Being able to cast fly doesn't qualify you for Flyby attack, Barkskin doesn't qualify you for improved natural armor, and more directly to the point, being able to cast bull strength doesn't qualify you for Power Attack (Even if you had the ability to keep it up all day). Just because the enhancement bonus is continuous (barring dispelling or anti-magic field) doesn't mean it's not an enhancement bonus (the same would be true for the amulet of natural armor)...
Timlagor 03-11-07, 05:27 PM	When you are wearing gauntlets your strength score includes the gauntlets. The only thing that distinguishes between the base and the enhancement bonus is another source of enhancement bonus. It was the game designers intent that stat-boosters count towardss qualification for Feats (they have said so though I don't recall where). If you look at the requirements for some of the Feats (TWF in particular) and compare to the Elite array you find another indication of the intent.
Cardinal Teplin 03-11-07, 06:54 PM	Says who? Not the PHB. The PHB says "Your character must have the indicated ability score" (PHB p.87) Having Gauntlets does not mean your character has a STR of 13, your character has STR 11, and an enhancement bonus of +2 [b]to[/i] that ability score. That is not the same as an ability score of 13. Really? So you wouldn't use the '12-13' row for determining their bonus to hit and damage?.. Seriously, someone with a strength of 11 and a +2 enhancement bonus has a total strength of 13. Otherwise, what would be the point of having the bonus?
evilaustintom 03-11-07, 06:59 PM	There's two reasons why I feel the ability works... 1) "You have the supernatural ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo and the Plane of Shadow to travel faster". The Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Material Plane -- that is, a link can be created between the Material and Shadow at any point on either plane. The DMG and MotP also state, "It [Shadow] overlaps the Material Plane much as the Ethereal Plane does, so a planar traveler can use the Plane of Shadow to cover great distances quickly." One could presume that the Horizon Walker's ability might be using the Plane of Shadow to enable his movement, much in the same way a wizard might use shadow walk to get from point A to point B. 2) While it may not seem like a big deal compared to places like the Plane of Shadow or Limbo, the Material Plane is morphic ("alterable morphic"), just not wildly so. Those are a couple of good points. Using the 'plane of shadow' point, I also looked up some of the shadow spells in the PHB. The first line of the shadow conjuration spell... "You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects or forces." This almost matches the Horizon Walker's quote... "You have the supernatural ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo and the Plane of Shadow to travel faster." I am starting to lean back to the opinion that H.W. can do this as it appears. A couple of people have mentioned that this is NOT broken or unbalanced. I'm the only person who mentioned anything close to this - and I simply stated that this was very powerful (not broken). A number of classes have very powerful abilities that are not game breaking, but still very strong. Some classes don't. However, I still stand by my belief that this a powerful ability. What it does alone it not the point - the fact that you can do it at will is. A resource you don't have to worry about spending. Even sorcerers have a limit to the number of spells they can cast before they run out. However, this class can D-door his whole party within range of the bad guys for a round of full attacks...or farther away, to avoid flanking, ambushes, or whatever. Making any strong resource something that can't be 'spent' is powerful. You no longer worry about whether you should burn that D-door ability this encounter, or next. Should you use it to get into the walled city, or save it, in case you need to leave quickly? No worries with this class. Yes, you have to wait 1d4 rounds...but this is much different than 8 hours of rest (plus up to 1 hour of memorizing spells) or waiting for that one time a day when you can pray for spells. In any case...I wasn't looking to dwell too much on the differences in opinion on how powerful this class ability is. The interpretation of how the ability works is what really concerned me. Thanks for the feedback, guys! Tom Thowe (who is now considering retraining his low level archer for this class)
King Kashue 03-11-07, 07:04 PM	Really? So you wouldn't use the '12-13' row for determining their bonus to hit and damage?.. Seriously, someone with a strength of 11 and a +2 enhancement bonus has a total strength of 13. Otherwise, what would be the point of having the bonus? It's the difference between ability score and effective ability score. So, just to be clear, the claim is that you can take feats that you only qualify for when certain bonuses are applied? Even though the PHB makes no mention of that? (The section about losing prereqs mentions only penalties to existing scores)... So, a cleric with strength domain can take power attack with a strength of 7, because when s/he casts bull's strength and enlarge, the strength becomes 13? Anyone wearing an amulet of natural armor can take the feat Improved Natural armor? And so forth? Someone with winged boots can take Flyby Attack? That seems utter nonsense to me, but I guess it's fine by me, since that fixes a potential issue with the feats on my dragon disciple (working out when to take improved natural armor because I wanted to take Divine Vigor at 6th, I guess I can take it at 3rd, as long as I've bought an amulet of natural armor)...
zigspatty 03-11-07, 09:12 PM	That seems utter nonsense to me, but I guess it's fine by me, since that fixes a potential issue with the feats on my dragon disciple (working out when to take improved natural armor because I wanted to take Divine Vigor at 6th, I guess I can take it at 3rd, as long as I've bought an amulet of natural armor)... I think you're going to find a LOT of tables where that trick's not going to work.... Improved Natural Armor has a prerequisite of "Natural Armor". An Amulet of Natural Armor only grants an enhancement bonus, it doesn't actually grant "natural armor" which is what the feat requires. From the SRD: Amulet of Natural Armor: This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet. Dragon Disciples gain a "natural armor increase" which provides an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any) which should meet the prerequisite. (I suppose that's why it's worded in that fashion instead of as an enhancement to natural armor.) A generous judge might still allow the amulet to qualify, but I wouldn't count on it. And you run the compounded risk that losing the item would lose not only the item's bonus, but the benefit of your feat as well. Too much table variation for most folk.. Patty who has always considered using an item to qualify for a feat or p-class to be way too risky... and thouroghly cheesey
King Kashue 03-11-07, 09:39 PM	I think you're going to find a LOT of tables where that trick's not going to work.... Improved Natural Armor has a prerequisite of "Natural Armor". An Amulet of Natural Armor only grants an enhancement bonus, it doesn't actually grant "natural armor" which is what the feat requires. Which is my point with the ability scores... The character has an ability score of 11 and an enhancement bonus to that score of +2, making his effective score 13. But his score is 11.
Timlagor 03-11-07, 09:55 PM	So, a cleric with strength domain can take power attack with a strength of 7, because when s/he casts bull's strength and enlarge, the strength becomes 13? Anyone wearing an amulet of natural armor can take the feat Improved Natural armor? And so forth? Someone with winged boots can take Flyby Attack? I'm fairly sure LG has a specified limit that you must be able to maintain the effect for 24 hours... not sure where it's specified though. I'm failing to find an issue with the Natural Armour... does it actually cause problems?
King Kashue 03-11-07, 10:16 PM	I'm fairly sure LG has a specified limit that you must be able to maintain the effect for 24 hours... not sure where it's specified though. No offense, but all these rules you're remembering but have no idea from where...they're not terribly helpful :D
Mommy was an Orc 03-12-07, 12:04 AM	I'd agree with everyone else on this. Remember, though, there are some ways to take advantage of this - Sun School from Complete Warrior as an example lets you take an attack after DDoor.
copper_wyrmling 03-12-07, 12:06 AM	The FAQ does say, "Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one." (p.8)
zigspatty 03-12-07, 12:07 AM	I'm fairly sure LG has a specified limit that you must be able to maintain the effect for 24 hours... not sure where it's specified though. It's actually in the FAQ of the LGCS v. 7.0.1, but it's in reference to using stat boosting items for MIC. Q: Can I use a temporary caster level-increasing item during magic item creation? A: No. Unless the item or effect is a constant 24-hour long effect you cannot use it during magic item creation. I doubt that there are any problems with folks using the Amulet of Natural Armor to qualify for Improved Natural Armor. The feat is from the Monster Manual and thus oriented towards companion creatures that typically have some sort of natural armor. Most animal companions are not "war trained" so suffer major penalties from wearing anything more than light barding, so the feat is appealing for them. Except for centaurs and asherati, the PC races don't have natural armor, so wouldn't qualify. And PCs tend to have more effective ways of raising their AC one point than using a precious feat that is dependent upon a buff item. And while I have heard many stories of PCs that used items to qualify for feats, the only instance I've actually seen was with a PC that planned to reallocate a stat bump as soon as he regained the level lost to dying. Patty
King Kashue 03-12-07, 12:36 AM	The FAQ does say, "Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one." (p.8) Which isn't terribly relevant to the issue of using an enhancement bonus to qualify for the prereqs of a feat. Except to say that an argument of "gauntlets work, but bull strength doesn't" is invalid, and can't be made. The main question is not "a temporary vs. a continual enhancement bonus", it's "does an enhancement bonus count as part of the ability score for purposes of qualifying for prereqs"... I.e., Does a strength domain cleric with a str of 7 qualify for Power Attack, a feat with the ability score prereq of "STR 13"? I'm saying no, several other people are saying yes...
King Kashue 03-12-07, 12:38 AM	I doubt that there are any problems with folks using the Amulet of Natural Armor to qualify for Improved Natural Armor. The feat is from the Monster Manual and thus oriented towards companion creatures that typically have some sort of natural armor. Most animal companions are not "war trained" so suffer major penalties from wearing anything more than light barding, so the feat is appealing for them. Except for centaurs and asherati, the PC races don't have natural armor, so wouldn't qualify. And PCs tend to have more effective ways of raising their AC one point than using a precious feat that is dependent upon a buff item. The issue is not situational, it's a rules discussion...I.e., it's not "is this one specific item and one specific feat combo a problem?", it's whether enhancement/size/etc. bonuses granted by items/spells can be used to qualify for feats...
Timlagor 03-12-07, 01:54 AM	No offense, but all these rules you're remembering but have no idea from where...they're not terribly helpful :D Not terribly :) ..but since I can't sleep: A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item. You were raising the Natural Armour as if allowing you to do it somehow caused a problem. I wanted to know if there was some reason it would matter if you could take the Feat. The Cleric is more problematic because he can only do it for one round per day which would make training to learn the Feat rather difficult. The FAQ also doesn't cover it and I think many would disagree with you that it follows automatically: the FAQ writer could well have an unvoiced 8-24hour requirement.
Xippendollom Krakenwarren 03-12-07, 02:11 AM	It seems that this thread has kind of gotten off topic, but I thought I'd toss my two cents in as someone who has played a Ranger (Archer style) / Horizon Walker. I played it in a home game, so the rulings that we had were at least standard across the campaign and I didn't have to worry about running into DMs who said that the ability wouldn't work. First off, I have to say, if the ability didn't work on the Prime Material Plane, why would the designers have bothered putting it into the game in the first place? You have a list of all the different abilities for the class, all of which work on the Prime, and then you'd toss in one ability that doesn't work for no reason? That doesn't fly with me. I don't honestly even see the point in debating it. That being said, let me tell you how it tends to play out in the game. Yes, it is ridiculously helpful. You can effectively leap ahead great distances at a time, allowing you to get around encounters, catch people who are running, etc. Where it begins to get a little trickier is when you start using it in combat. As an archer, I think it got me into just as many tough situations as it got me out of. Here you have the ability to teleport in somewhere (or out of somewhere) and begin shooting at people. If, however, tactics change (maybe someone was hidden near where you went to), you might be stuck there for 4 rounds taking the brunt of some nasty attacks, and if you're an archer, you probably can't take that. I've wanted to play a melee ranger with these tactics, but I've never managed to get around to it. I guess the short version is that I think that it's a good ability that manages to push the class over the edge from being "not too bad" to being worth taking. Remember that to take this you're giving up at least 6 ranger levels worth of spells, favored enemies, hiding in plain sight, etc. It's not that big a deal.
Evanta 03-12-07, 02:18 AM	Which isn't terribly relevant to the issue of using an enhancement bonus to qualify for the prereqs of a feat. Except to say that an argument of "gauntlets work, but bull strength doesn't" is invalid, and can't be made. The main question is not "a temporary vs. a continual enhancement bonus", it's "does an enhancement bonus count as part of the ability score for purposes of qualifying for prereqs"... I.e., Does a strength domain cleric with a str of 7 qualify for Power Attack, a feat with the ability score prereq of "STR 13"? I'm saying no, several other people are saying yes... The answer is somewhere in Ask Wizards.
King Kashue 03-12-07, 02:41 AM	Originally Posted by FAQ p24 A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item. There ya go...Now, a lot of typing could have been avoided if someone posted that earlier (and I didn't find it searching for "requisite" or "prereq" in the FAQ :mad: )... By the way, it's on p. 29 of the current FAQ, yours is likely rather old... The Cleric is more problematic because he can only do it for one round per day which would make training to learn the Feat rather difficult. The FAQ also doesn't cover it and I think many would disagree with you that it follows automatically: the FAQ writer could well have an unvoiced 8-24hour requirement. Unvoiced? :bored: That's not how the rules work, especially when there are statements like "Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one." Unless there's a statement to the contrary, the bonus from bull's strength = bonus from belt of giant's strength +4. You would have a valid argument in saying "the FAQ refers to items, not spells"...