Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 10-23-06, 03:39 PM	I am curious about this. I have heard this phrase many times. While I can see how the Divination school can help a party through a given module, I do not see how it 'breaks' a mod. Does anyone have some examples (no spoilers please) of why this is the case? I've read through most of the Divination school in the PHB and the Spell Compendium...none of them appeared to be mod-breakers. I've used detect evil to detect potential ambushers. That didn't change our course of action though. We still ran into an ambush. What do you folks consider 'mod-breaking' Divination?
paigeoliver 10-23-06, 04:04 PM	Most living greyhawk writers seem to try to either write around or negate any character abilities that could possibly keep the module from running their way, or they don't even consider them at all.
Arvagor 10-23-06, 04:08 PM	Generally, it's not mod-breaking (IMO) until you get past APL 8, but I'll present just such a scenario... Plot hook person X is kidnapped! Oh No!!! 1) Go to person's family; 2) get a personal effect; 3) cast scrying; 4) cast detect spells of various kinds to determine whether location viewed is a real or false one; 5) teleport to the location you are currently viewing; 6) go home. An unwritten rule that seems to pop up is that powerful individuals and members of powerful organizations will also have a lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. on file with the organization, making the scrying that much easier (like the US military does now, by collecting DNA samples on all personnel). Although not a spell of the Divination school, speak with dead ("Who killed you?") potentially breaks any mod that falls under a murder mystery style of plotline.
Japangirl 10-23-06, 04:18 PM	Problem with scrying, teleporting, and teleporting home again is you miss out on all the access and xp of the mod because you didn't kill the bad guys in the way, didn't travel there and meet the obligatory thug encounter, didn't wander around the city to get presented with secondary missions, etc. You can still do it, but it does ruin the module's rewards a lot of the time.
Lupo 10-23-06, 04:28 PM	I am curious about this. I have heard this phrase many times. While I can see how the Divination school can help a party through a given module, I do not see how it 'breaks' a mod. Does anyone have some examples (no spoilers please) of why this is the case? I've read through most of the Divination school in the PHB and the Spell Compendium...none of them appeared to be mod-breakers. I've used detect evil to detect potential ambushers. That didn't change our course of action though. We still ran into an ambush. What do you folks consider 'mod-breaking' Divination? the problem comes from a certain "misconcept of a determinationist's universe", the players play a module and have the boilereplate as hints, actually the characters don't have this information or at least not everything from it, a cleric with a divination spell might deduct a lot with a set of sophisticated questions. the problem is, that the gamers KNOW that the adventure course is fixed, while a character is supposed to at least believe in his own power to change the course of actions to a certain degree. ciao martin m.
Lomiat 10-23-06, 04:33 PM	Arvagor's identified two of the most common ways Divination spells *can* break a mod, but they don't often work. (Trust me; I've tried repeatedly.) Most of the time, LG authors will explain in text for the DMs why/how Divination spells fail, or they'll simply write, "Scrying reveals nothing." Etc. Nonetheless, Divination spells can allow parties to veer off the plot-hook path in other ways. Some I've seen include: *Locate Object to know the correct path down a dungeon maze. *Comprehend Languages to read some obscure bit of text. (This doesn't really "break" anything, but it's come in handy more often than any other Divination spell I've seen used.) *Detect Thoughts to figure out who has no apparent intelligence score (not to read the thoughts of those who save, but simply to figure out who is immune to the spell: Ring of Mind Shielding, Mind Blank, etc.), which then immediately leads to the question: Why is someone guarding their thoughts/alignment, etc? *Detect Thoughts in the rare occassion that you actually get surface thoughts. This allows you to interrogate someone in such a way that even should that individual refuse to answer or lie, the mind-probing spellcaster understands what is being buried. *Prying Eyes to detect ambushes. *Rary's Telepathic Bond to allow a party to communicate with an advance scout. *Arcane Sight or True Seeing to recognize/see through illusions. *Augury to make one important decision. *Divination/Commune/Contact Other Plane to gain valuable insight into the efficacy of a potential plan. In one adventure I played, my Divine Oracle and one of the party's clerics both gained information that allowed us to recognize a threat sooner than we otherwise would have. Some of these uses of Divination magic may seem extremely vague (and that's how they tend to play out--vaguely useful), but the impact they make on any given adventure depends on both: 1) how far out of his/her way the author of the mod went to screw over Divination magic, and 2) how inventive the caster is in his/her use of the spells.
kenobi65 10-23-06, 04:58 PM	Although not a spell of the Divination school, speak with dead ("Who killed you?") potentially breaks any mod that falls under a murder mystery style of plotline. Not to mention that the ability to cast raise dead and the like also makes murder mysteries potentially not go the way the writer intended. I've seen more than one adventure in which speak with dead was specifically negated by the murderer destroying the body's mouth / throat, so that it could not speak.
Maesto 10-23-06, 05:35 PM	I play a 15th level diviner/divine oracle, so I've tried out most of the divination spells. It doesn't always happen, but true seeing on a suspect employer often reveals that you just happen to be working for a demon/rakshasa/drow etc, which is always amusing. Module kinda doesn't happen then, unless you don't say anything to the rest of the players. I had one module where the little boy who was your plothook turned out to be a quasit in alternate form, which had explosive results. Greater arcane sight is really useful - you know exactly what magical traps are and exactly how hard they are to disable. You also recognise illusion spells immediately, and know who's got the buffs going. I wouldn't say that rary's telepathic bond is mod-breaking, but it certainly allows you to get away with more metagaming =) (legitimate metagaming, anyone?) Scrying has to be the worst one, although now I'm 15th, I've got discern location too, which should be fun. The teleport there and back thing I would only ever do with greater teleport; I don't think scrying somewhere is good enough to give you a teleport, but that's just me. I agree with the previous poster who mentioned that it's really no fun missing out on the mod though. What is more fun is scrying your enemies to learn something about them if you have heard of them, or scrying whoever you need to rescue and casting message to get them to tell you stuff to make things easier. Chain of eyes is a lot of fun; if you can get it on a minion in the employ of the big bad you want to take out you might get some free info. Warning; this spell is a real pain for DMs. Locate object is useful for some quests, although find the path is certainly a lot more fun. I'm not a fan of divination or augury; you need a good DM to give you a good answer, and more often than not, it's too hard to come up with a good question. I've used commune a couple of times, basically 'coz it's lots of fun. The most common use for it is "Oh. We're being employed by the drinkers? Right. Boccob - are we actually working for the drinkers? are they going to screw us over this time? are there warshaper weretigers of complete ugliness that will cause numerous pc deaths in this module? etc ;-)". Iuz people, you know which mod I'm talking about! Detect scrying is basically never module breaking, but it can be quite hilarious - for example, Null scries upon you, and you beat him on the caster level check =) Alternatively, in tropical intrigue, i beat the scarlet brotherhood scrier on his caster level check, so the dm modified my ar entry. Probe thoughts is a good one for investigative mods, especially when you don't have a party face. Better than detect thoughts, usually. The best way that i've found though is to use suggestion - suggest that they answer your questions truthfully =) I wouldn't say that divination spells are module breaking. If an author hasn't taken them into account, they can reveal a lot more than the author intended for you to know. At the same time, authors who have taken these effects into account (and not just saying "it doesn't work") generally write really good mods =) Divinations are another tool in the pc's toolbox; might as well use them. Oh, and don't cast detect thoughts around me unless you're really really smart - you'll go unconscious. The number of DMs who realise this for dopplegangers is really low, unfortunately. In Perrenland, one of the triad members is well known for hating divination spells. So much so that the boilerplate was changed to include "here's the nasty stuff that happens to PCs when they use these divination spells in perrenland". Eugh. Cheers, Jolyon
Lupo 10-23-06, 06:09 PM	Most living greyhawk writers seem to try to either write around or negate any character abilities that could possibly keep the module from running their way, or they don't even consider them at all. a writer HAS TO WRITE ways to avoid module breaking tricks, a home dm can fix, readjust, modify the planned course of an adventure, as a home dm i often have to rewrite or rethink whole plots. in LG you can't do the same as a dm, either you just stop the module right there, handing out ARs with minimum XP, maybe no gold, or you find ways to nerf the divination attempt. as a dm i wouldn't allow players to use metagame information for a divination spell. questions like: "will we encounter devils, demons or you-name-it in the third encounter" will not get any correct answers. or information from the boilerplate that isn't known to the characters: boilerplate reads "an adventure leading deep into the mines of the dwarven clan x", and the characters are just at the start without any dwarf in sight and a divination spell asks for "drow in the future?" is just silly, even when the main encounter is a drow raid on the dwarven royal family. ciao martin m. ps: that's the reason to write adventures with a not to wide spread of APLs, some nice plots and ideas that work at a certain APL might be totally nonsense at a lower or higher APL.
Japangirl 10-23-06, 06:39 PM	Ugh, I remember that mod. However, I played at a *much* lower APL, so no weretiger warshapers for us!
Arvagor 10-23-06, 06:41 PM	I've used commune a couple of times, basically 'coz it's lots of fun. The most common use for it is "Oh. We're being employed by the drinkers? Right. Boccob - are we actually working for the drinkers? are they going to screw us over this time? are there warshaper weretigers of complete ugliness that will cause numerous pc deaths in this module? etc ;-)". Iuz people, you know which mod I'm talking about!The saving grace of commune -- from the DM's point of view -- is that: You contact your deity — or agents thereof. Despite what they may think, the PCs are not the most important beings on Oerth, and getting one of your deity's servants is a much more probable outcome. "Unclear" is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. Especially not the deity's servants. ;)
_m_ 10-23-06, 08:10 PM	I had one module where the little boy who was your plothook turned out to be a quasit in alternate form, which had explosive results. Jolyon lol, i played that mod. would you believe one of our pc's killed him before we knew he was a quasit? :D *sigh* basically, in perenland, where i am, scrying / sending / divinations etc simply dont work. makes it easy. no1 tries for mod breaking divinations, teleports, junk like that. its fine.
wooti 10-23-06, 08:41 PM	Stupid iuz grrrr... when ever I'm not in perrendland I have a scry memorized and usually find something to try it on, it hasn't worked yet. I even had one mod that the gm just ignored me when I wanted to cast scry. I wish modules writer would be more aware of divination (and diplomacy) and write for it.
_m_ 10-23-06, 08:45 PM	well often you would miss a batch of experience from rp and finding stuff out through the confines of the mod if you just scried. still, i like the iuz thing. its similar to how virtually every mod with a static destination simply has anti-teleportation fields active, so you cant just jump in there. of course you could always move to another plane and back as an inacurate form of long distance travel (shadow walk style), but again, you just miss stuff. its kinda like speeding, yeah, you might get there sooner, but chances are, youl get penalised for doing it.
clannagh 10-23-06, 09:29 PM	I am aware of one mod where the mod was "broken" in the sense that the party was too clever for their own good, spotted and avoided something they should have got caught by (something which was intended to whisk them away) and basically got forced to fight an unintended by the author well above APL encounter before they could plane shift home safely.
_m_ 10-23-06, 09:48 PM	plane shift? was i in that one? i dont remember fighting anything above apl if it was the one i think it was.
Gwumph 10-24-06, 12:01 AM	We just joined Perrenland No one has tried any Divination spells. I can't wait until someone tries though!!!
Lomiat 10-24-06, 12:03 AM	well often you would miss a batch of experience from rp and finding stuff out through the confines of the mod if you just scried. still, i like the iuz thing. its similar to how virtually every mod with a static destination simply has anti-teleportation fields active, so you cant just jump in there. of course you could always move to another plane and back as an inacurate form of long distance travel (shadow walk style), but again, you just miss stuff. its kinda like speeding, yeah, you might get there sooner, but chances are, youl get penalised for doing it. I disagree with the logic exemplified here. The premise of this argument, along with so many others, is that you miss the XP because you don't fight the random thug encounter designed to give you one rather insignificant clue to aid you on your way to Ultimate Goal A. The problem with such logic is that it defeats the idea that any Living Greyhawk adventure is, indeed, goal oriented. As a player trying to suspend my disbelief and immerse myself in the imaginary world, I dislike constantly tripping over the same logical stumbling block: we are not here to accomplish any goal; we are here to fight as many things as possible to test our minds and muscle and loot the corpses for treasure. While that's good enough for many PCs, it's quite far beneath the idea of Ultimate Goal for many, perhaps most. And, therefore, it's rather stupid that PCs (and, in turn, players) get penalized for avoiding arbitrary and tangential (or, worse yet, completely random) encounters in their attempts to meet Ultimate Goal A. I, for one, would certainly prefer to see more adventures in which the XP summary simply hands the PCs all their XP (or all-but-roleplaying) based on whether or not they accomplish the objective they've been Requested, Requisitioned, Begged, Cajoled, Coerced, Blackmailed, or Otherwise Impelled to accomplish. Then again, I'd like to see a slightly more organic feel to most LG mods. It gets to be tiresome when some players simply count encounters (and ELs) in an effort to determine how much of their resources they can use in any given encounter (and it feels worse when I catch myself doing the same). Basically, adventures that allow PCs to use their Divination magic to accomplish their goal (or that have written into them some logical reasons why Divination spells fail or mislead a party, and let the PCs get *something* for their efforts) create a greater sense of STORY than adventures that just kill the efforts cold and/or punish (in any way) parties that make use of their spells, intellect, resources, etc. in order to accomplish the adventure's stated objective. (If there's no good reason to kill the huge ooze, why fight it? It's stupid if you lose XP for ignoring something that can't harm you.)
wooti 10-24-06, 12:05 AM	its kinda like speeding, yeah, you might get there sooner, but chances are, youl get penalised for doing it. There are a couple of goos mods I've run that have something like "if the players teleport/or otherwise get past this encounter move it to here, or replace it with this." often giving the players a slight advantage (finding the encounter at an easier location) for being smart rather than penalising them. The problem is that you never know if it is a well thought out module when you start playing. I also think that if possible the DM should try to rearrainge the mod if possible not to penalise players for being smart (not always easy mind you).
_m_ 10-24-06, 12:18 AM	or you might end up with the same effect as trying to 'port into tensers fortress: you appear in mid air hundreds of feet above a giant lake full of really nasty beasties...
Japangirl 10-24-06, 01:25 AM	Just remember: if all divination spells don't work, no one can cast See Invisibility or True Seeing, so being invisible is ridiculously awesome and good. By the same token, beware the assassins!
_m_ 10-24-06, 01:38 AM	Just remember: if all divination spells don't work, no one can cast See Invisibility or True Seeing, so being invisible is ridiculously awesome and good. By the same token, beware the assassins! yeah im a big fan of being invisible... also, im a big fan of having +28 to hide, and hide in plain sight... question, whats the dc for spotting someone who takes 20 to hide, with cover, and invisibility running? is it actually possible to notice an invisible pc if they arent making noise?
Japangirl 10-24-06, 01:50 AM	Invisibility is +20 to hide, so yes you can spot them even if they aren't making any noise. We have a druid who specializes in spotting invisible people, though even he can't see those who have high hide checks as well. But for your average wizard, a +20-25 on spot checks will see them quite often.
_m_ 10-24-06, 01:54 AM	Invisibility is +20 to hide, so yes you can spot them even if they aren't making any noise. We have a druid who specializes in spotting invisible people, though even he can't see those who have high hide checks as well. But for your average wizard, a +20-25 on spot checks will see them quite often. so with that in mind... has neone encountered a monster (a non true sight monster) with near a +70 to spot? ever?
gomeztoo 10-24-06, 05:02 AM	I have used ways to screw with Divination in mods, if there were reasons for it and it made sense (i.e. there is an area in the Vast Swamp where teleport and divinations hardly ever work, as the unseelie fey screw with it). But I have also NOT done that, and then typically get comments like "what if people teleport/scry/divine...?" And yes, I cab give hints as to what people can divine, or how teleport affects the scenario, but should I? There are hundreds of spells, each one a more potential disruption than the other. It is often near impossible to take all of them into account as a writer. That is the task, imo, of the DM. And if players wish to skip the adventure, I don't really mind...
Lupo 10-24-06, 05:14 AM	I have used ways to screw with Divination in mods, if there were reasons for it and it made sense (i.e. there is an area in the Vast Swamp where teleport and divinations hardly ever work, as the unseelie fey screw with it). But I have also NOT done that, and then typically get comments like "what if people teleport/scry/divine...?" And yes, I cab give hints as to what people can divine, or how teleport affects the scenario, but should I? There are hundreds of spells, each one a more potential disruption than the other. It is often near impossible to take all of them into account as a writer. That is the task, imo, of the DM. And if players wish to skip the adventure, I don't really mind... actually players and characters should have learned that it is often more reasonable to first collect all tidbits of a task before starting to assemble them, at least when they have access to powerfull divination and trasnport means. on the other hand, sometimes if your character knows that a certain path is dangerous and has the means to get around it, then just do it and don't be fooled by dms telling you: but the locals really would like you to be accompanied by them; :mad: silly, time consuming, nearly-wiping-out-half-of-the-party, nasty occult slayer barbarians encounter in "hanging glacier":mad: ciao martin m.
Madfox11 10-24-06, 05:35 AM	With all the PCs running around with anti-scrying and anti-teleportation magics is it really surprising that high APL NPCs with access to such magics do the same? In fact, it is easier to defend yourself to scrying (especially when in a static) environment than to scry - Mordekainen's private sanctum[I] is a 5th level spell with a long duration that automatically blocks any Divinitation spell. NPC wizard villains in my adventures tend to use it at APL 10+ and I never got complaints about it. The fact of D&D is that it is really not that difficult to take counter-measures against 6ht level and lower Divination spells. The PCs are really not the only people who can use magic, and any villain that has reached level 10 should know some of the basic counter-measures. I mean, when the whole adventure is about finding the serial killer, who happens to be a wizard of APL+1 level of genius intelligence, than the PCs better expect that [I]Mordekainen's private sanctum at APL 8+, they should expect that every personal item of the victim is removed before the victim is even taken into the hideout and that anticipate teleportation running at APL 6+. Speak with dead didn't help much since the victims had never seen their killer, and didn't know where they were killed since they were unconscious at the time. Now ultimately it is the responsibility of both the author AND the DM to make sure the adventure makes sense. Dealing with divinations is one of the many things that have to be taken into account. In many cases though the DM is as much to blame for errors as the author. An author cannot take everything into account a PC *might* do. There are simply too many options open. A DM should be confident enough to be able to deal with the rest based on what the author did take into account.
Prochytes 10-24-06, 05:47 AM	I think that the only time I have seen divination "break" a module was when our PCs (being high-level and serious-minded) subjected the entire entourage of the important NPC they were protecting to discern shapechanger, just to be on the safe side. As a result, the individual who was supposed to set the plot in motion once they reached their destination was unmasked before they even got there. This caused the DM some headaches, but he found a way around it. My own modules routinely include anti-surveillance measures if it is appropriate for the NPCs to have them. This can be anything up to a mind blank, if one of the movers-and-shakers happens to be an archmage.
Lupo 10-24-06, 05:59 AM	I think that the only time I have seen divination "break" a module was when our PCs (being high-level and serious-minded) subjected the entire entourage of the important NPC they were protecting to discern shapechanger, just to be on the safe side. As a result, the individual who was supposed to set the plot in motion once they reached their destination was unmasked before they even got there. This caused the DM some headaches, but he found a way around it. My own modules routinely include anti-surveillance measures if it is appropriate for the NPCs to have them. This can be anything up to a mind blank, if one of the movers-and-shakers happens to be an archmage. yea, villains are not stupid, otherwise they don't make it to second level :D simple measures include lead foil, just to wrap up stolen items and the like. but can work against the villains as well :D, an intro module sports a villain who tries to get away, if possible, but is hindred and slowed by the heavy lead clad box that has to be dragged along ;) ciao martin m.
Iswald 10-24-06, 10:51 AM	With all the PCs running around with anti-scrying and anti-teleportation magics is it really surprising that high APL NPCs with access to such magics do the same? In fact, it is easier to defend yourself to scrying (especially when in a static) environment than to scry - [I]Mordekainen's private sanctum[I] is a 5th level spell with a long duration that automatically blocks any Divinitation spell. NPC wizard villains in my adventures tend to use it at APL 10+ and I never got complaints about it. That's fine, as long as it shows up in the spellbook on the AR. Unless there's a logical reason for it not to.
Lomiat 10-24-06, 11:14 AM	The issue isn't simply whether or not Divination spells (or a number of them) are confounded; the issue, rather, is whether or not they're blocked to further lend to the story or simply to prevent players from escaping your box text. I think the best LG adventures provide enough information to let the players go off the beaten path and still return, without the DM having to rope them in too hard. When every module starts to feel like a dungeon crawl simply because the plot hook has been running down the train tracks with no turn for the last 3 hours.... Well, how is that really an "investigative" mod? At some point, I intend to write an adventure that simply states what the crime was, who commited it, how it was commited, who the main players are, and what they typically do in a given day. In other words: free form. Some DMs will hate such a mod, of course, because it will force them to wing basically every scene, but that's how it goes. On the other hand, such an adventure would have some limitations on how effective Divination spells are, but the answers to the ones that work (if the basic information is presented appropriately) should prove helpful. That's just an idea, of course, but I've read too many investigative mods where any attempts to make the adventure non-linear are pitiable at best and insulting at worst. Divinations, at their most "game breaking," take a linear mod and make it non-linear. That's the reward/trouble, and it bothers me when I hear authors talk about how players "lose out" if they simply accomplish their goals through non-linear means, rather than fight Encounter 1, then Encounter 2, then find hidden base 1 with Trap 1 and Trap 2, wherein hides Encounter 3. That's not an adventure; that's a connect-the-dots picture book.
Arvagor 10-24-06, 12:12 PM	That's fine, as long as it shows up in the spellbook on the AR. Unless there's a logical reason for it not to.... Triad and Circle editing removing the spellbook from the AR for lack of room... :(
Japangirl 10-24-06, 12:54 PM	:mad: silly, time consuming, nearly-wiping-out-half-of-the-party, nasty occult slayer barbarians encounter in "hanging glacier":mad: Ahahahahaha! Ours tried to coup de'grace a Bandit Kingdoms party in our sleep . . . someone made the listen check and yelled out "AMBUSH!" which got us on our feet pretty quick. After that, we just destroyed them.
solbergb 10-24-06, 02:42 PM	Arcane sight - shows those guys who can cast 9th level spells disguised as something innocent. Also like detect thoughts can often spot ringers - somebody claiming to be a member of the Circle of 8 should either light up like a christmas tree in magic items+ buffs, or show nothing at all. He should not show a magic dagger, a weak L1 abjuration buff and a potion as his only magic, unless perhaps he is Nystul (who presumably created his Magic Aura spell just to fool people like my Sorceress) As for hanging glacier...we had people on watch. Never EVER let the NPC's take the only watch :) One of those on watch had dim door and got most of the sleepers safe. The only real danger was the axe crit on the cleric but she delay deathed herself in time.
Arvagor 10-24-06, 02:58 PM	Also like detect thoughts can often spot ringers - somebody claiming to be a member of the Circle of 8 should either light up like a christmas tree in magic items+ buffs, or show nothing at all. He should not show a magic dagger, a weak L1 abjuration buff and a potion as his only magic, unless perhaps he is Nystul (who presumably created his Magic Aura spell just to fool people like my Sorceress)That's what a ring of mind shielding is for... And I'm sure Nystul taught his fellow Circle members the techniques required to cast his most simple creation! ;)
_m_ 10-24-06, 06:44 PM	That's what a ring of mind shielding is for... And I'm sure Nystul taught his fellow Circle members the techniques required to cast his most simple creation! ;) its really not hard at all to be protected. i mean heck, theres even a number of classes that provide complete protection from scrying, even without gear. basically though, divination will most likely work if its a small boon, but 'reveal nothing' if its gonna break the mod.
Iswald 10-24-06, 10:05 PM	... Triad and Circle editing removing the spellbook from the AR for lack of room... :( See, that wouldn't be a logical reason. They could just put the spellbook on a seperate AR for anyone who was interested in buying it. I have seen this done.
_m_ 10-24-06, 10:17 PM	See, that wouldn't be a logical reason. They could just put the spellbook on a seperate AR for anyone who was interested in buying it. I have seen this done. ... methinks arvagor may have been somewhat less than 100% sincere when he wrote that...
Iswald 10-24-06, 11:09 PM	... methinks arvagor may have been somewhat less than 100% sincere when he wrote that... I don't have that impression. There are some ARs that don't have room to include the spell list from a spell book. Some mods have multiple ARs because they need extra space.
Arvagor 10-25-06, 12:14 AM	I don't have that impression. There are some ARs that don't have room to include the spell list from a spell book. Some mods have multiple ARs because they need extra space.I was sincere, and for the mod I wrote, the reason I was given was that there was not enough room on the AR (I apparently had too many other items in the top box). Fair enough, but the spellbooks were also removed from the treasure summary as well, and the only hint they were there at all is that an entry was left in the "Possessions" paragraph for the BBEG at each APL (for example, "spellbook Volume I" at APL 2, "spellbook Volume I+II" at APL 4, etc.. Unfortunately, they are only listed there, and nowhere are the actual contents of those spellbooks listed, so a mage can't even copy them directly at the end of the adventure (as the LGCS permits).
gomeztoo 10-25-06, 04:09 AM	In the new writers guidelines "Spellbook" is an entry in the statblock.
Madfox11 10-25-06, 04:50 AM	At some point, I intend to write an adventure that simply states what the crime was, who commited it, how it was commited, who the main players are, and what they typically do in a given day. In other words: free form. Some DMs will hate such a mod, of course, because it will force them to wing basically every scene, but that's how it goes. On the other hand, such an adventure would have some limitations on how effective Divination spells are, but the answers to the ones that work (if the basic information is presented appropriately) should prove helpful. Please do, but there are a couple of things that make it VERY difficult to write such an adventure. I have written my share of honest mysteries, but writing them involved a lot more then just the who, how and when. Remember that DMs in Living Greyhawk have much less freedom in winging an encounter than in a home campaign. The setting is not theirs and adding wrong information is not appreciated. Many people also play it because it allows them to play a game. Such a freeform adventure requires intimate knowledge of the setting and if that is not present players might wander around blindly, but at the same time you must not make things too obvious or else the players who love mysteries feel cheated. Finally, a large section of players needs action and you need to aim your adventures at a wider audience than in a typical home campaign. Finally, the quality of the DMs differs widely. In my experience it is better to aim at the unprepared slightly below average DM when writing an adventure than at the good well-prepared DM. It saves you a lot of complaints like about divinations breaking modules or players unable to attack the box-texts ;)
Samwise 10-25-06, 12:25 PM	Please do, but there are a couple of things that make it VERY difficult to write such an adventure. Talk about your understatements! As much as people hate linear adventures, the problems with even a single open-ended encounter in LG are nearly overwhelming. The most critical ones are always going to be the sense of entitlement many players have in regards to getting full XP and GP for adventure, and the possibility of a free form adventure bypassing encounters. And no, you can't just stack all of the XP on the final encounter, or even on encounters subsequent to a particular task. I ran the third Brendigund adventure once where the PCs failed to stop the kidnapping. XP for the adventure: 50, the role-playing award. That was hardly fun. As a general guideline, every option you give the PCs in an LG adventure requires an extra page of text. A simple three options for every encounter results in 30 extra pages, over and above the typical 30 pages. Add in more complex interactions, and that number quickly gets completely out of hand. And then the reviewer gets his hands on it . . .
smerwin29 10-25-06, 02:29 PM	Those darn reviewers! Darn them to heck! Er, I mean, what a fine job they do, and outstanding human beings as well. Shawn (who will be on the chopping block again soon)
Arvagor 10-25-06, 02:46 PM	Shawn (who will be on the chopping block again soon)Having played and run some of your mods, Shawn, I can only imagine what you've gone through with some of yours (I can, somewhat, having written a regional mod earlier this year) -- you keep things interesting, and I continue to look forward to any future installments of the Serpent's Soul series (unlike another multi-year, multi-mod storyline that seems to have no end, and that most people at this point, I think, play just so they can say they finished the damn thing...)
Samwise 10-25-06, 03:30 PM	Having played and run some of your mods, Shawn, I can only imagine what you've gone through with some of yours What he's gone through? I hear the reviewer for Catching Breath still hasn't recovered fully! That poor man . . . Sam (who is already readying the axe)
smerwin29 10-25-06, 03:53 PM	Thank you, Arvagor, for your kind words. (Your check is in the mail.) Seeing happy players is the main motivation for most of the people writing for the campaign. And I can say without hesitation that Sam, one of the two Core mod reviewers for the Circle, was a pleasure to work with. Once the whip marks healed. But to get back on topic, it is not just divinations that break mods. Or spells. Or abilities. It is the necessary form of an RPGA Living Greyhawk adventure that break mods. When you have to create an entire world and set of circumstances in 30 pages or less, you are creating a very fragile thing that is easily broken, no matter how much you think, and sweat, and playtest. In the end, as an author, you have to make the most complete and seamless adventure you possibly can, and then trust the DM/judge to make the experience as wonderful as possible for the players. There is always the pull between writing those extra 10 pages that would add some depth for a small portion of the players, or leaving those pages out so that the judge running the adventure cold can understand and present the game well. And as I always told people when I was on the Keoland Triad who had overly harsh criticisms of adventures. Write one yourself, hand it to a judge cold, let him run a table through it on the Sunday morning of a long convention, and listen to the reactions of the players as they leave the table without telling them you are the author. Then come to me and we'll talk. :-D That's not saying that criticism can't be valid and constructive of course. But it is always an adventure to walk in another person's shoes for a few hours. Shawn (hopefully soon starting on Taking Flight, the final installment of "Windows to the Serpent's Soul")
qstor 10-25-06, 04:12 PM	Discern location can be mode breaking...I played a VTF mod with a 18th level cleric in Dec 05 right before the retirement cap dropped to 16th and he cast that and we were able to find the bad guys in a short amount of time lol Mike
solbergb 10-25-06, 04:42 PM	rings of mind shielding take up ring slots that epic level wizards have better uses for. Or epic fighters for that matter. My writeup of Lord Robilar (in case my PC's decided to be really stupid in some recent mods) had four rings and a hand of glory, and he had to decide which to use when. Ring of mind shielding wasn't on the list. He just gets mind blank from a cohort every day (or maybe Rary if Rary is happy with him at the moment). The point is...either you get NO result or you light up like a christmas tree if you are really a high level classed character. You don't light up like a L3 bouncer unless they're being feindishly clever in disguising themselves.
ezreal2001 10-25-06, 06:49 PM	Shawn (hopefully soon starting on Taking Flight, the final installment of "Windows to the Serpent's Soul") Got an ETA on that? I've got a 14th level PC whos played the rest of the sequence and I'd really like to finish the sequence with. I ran four sessions of Catching Breath at a con in June, every group was different (didn't get to hand out the special offer) and everyone had fun. PS the way you handled a certain divination was really evil:)
timerino 10-25-06, 07:54 PM	Isn't this a more specific instance of a generalized argument against authors/judges who disallow things because they don't like it. I am impresses with the level of dedication of the authors, coordinators (triad and circle folks), and judges who make LG possible. So, this is NOT A RANT!:P But, when an author simply disallows something by saying 'reveals nothing': isn't that a reverse form of house ruling? The same goes for: - Undead in unhallowed area (no radiant servant) - Rough terrain (no charge on mounts) - They always fight (no diplomacy) - Constructs (no sneaks) - Divination/Telepathy reveals nothing (no insights) But then: it's difficult (without many good practices) to make those situations fun consistently. When we see an encounter in the open plains where the enemy is on mount: we know sprited charge is coming. So, the PCs metagame to take out the dude with the lance of a PC may drop per charge. All these cases are merely different ways to play this very complex game. It is difficult to anticipate (and maintain fun) for all these specialist cases. Authors can always take the low road by not allowing PCs to do them ... or (in the ideal world) write modules we all tell our friends about! Judges (and authors) have to remember that they are not working against the PC. But, the judges (and authors) have to keep the game fun for all the different types of players at the table. It's a tough balancing act. And, every year, there's a few mod's which just makes all the other modules pale in comparasion! So: a challenge to the authors: leave those cheeze in. But, write better strategies and plots. Not all APL2 creatures continually radiate no alignment, thoughts, or magic. :D timerino
Arvagor 10-25-06, 09:24 PM	Thank you, Arvagor, for your kind words. (Your check is in the mail.)No problem; I'm still waiting on the chance to do so more maps for you ;)
DuctShuiTengu 10-25-06, 09:39 PM	When we see an encounter in the open plains where the enemy is on mount: we know sprited charge is coming. So, the PCs metagame to take out the dude with the lance of a PC may drop per charge. I fail to see where this is metagaming. Guys with lances on horses kill things very dead. When it's an enemy on a horse with a lance, it's probably the PCs who that person will be killing. Unless the PCs want to be killed, this is a bad thing, and more than adequate cause for killing that enemy before going after the ones without lances.
_m_ 10-25-06, 09:43 PM	yeah im inclined to agree. even an int 4 orc barbarian is probably going to have enough going on upstairs to know some guy charging him with a lance is going to hurt, without having to metagame.
ezreal2001 10-25-06, 10:44 PM	I fail to see where this is metagaming. Guys with lances on horses kill things very dead. When it's an enemy on a horse with a lance, it's probably the PCs who that person will be killing. Unless the PCs want to be killed, this is a bad thing, and more than adequate cause for killing that enemy before going after the ones without lances. Actually it's not that hard to supress a charger Anything that changes the Terain of the charge lane to difficult - smoke sticks in a pinch In a recent game, my PC simply moved with in 10 feet, tanked and kept the pressure on - the bad guy just couldn't get into position before I took out his mount.
Maesto 10-25-06, 10:49 PM	Slight spoiler warning, although I don't think I'm giving away anything that isn't in the blurb anyway here =) (IUZ6-05, The Madhouse). Talk about your understatements! As much as people hate linear adventures, the problems with even a single open-ended encounter in LG are nearly overwhelming. The most critical ones are always going to be the sense of entitlement many players have in regards to getting full XP and GP for adventure, and the possibility of a free form adventure bypassing encounters. And no, you can't just stack all of the XP on the final encounter, or even on encounters subsequent to a particular task. I ran the third Brendigund adventure once where the PCs failed to stop the kidnapping. XP for the adventure: 50, the role-playing award. That was hardly fun. As a general guideline, every option you give the PCs in an LG adventure requires an extra page of text. A simple three options for every encounter results in 30 extra pages, over and above the typical 30 pages. Add in more complex interactions, and that number quickly gets completely out of hand. And then the reviewer gets his hands on it . . . If anybody has a chance to do IUZ 6-05 "The Madhouse", I would strongly recommend that they take the opportunity to play it. It is a completely non-linear roleplaying event with all the XP hinging on one thing - good roleplay. It is one huge single-encounter module, written into the space of 15 pages (or so I'm told), including boilerplate. =) Good on you, Britt!
_m_ 10-26-06, 12:06 AM	Slight spoiler warning, although I don't think I'm giving away anything that isn't in the blurb anyway here =) (IUZ6-05, The Madhouse). If anybody has a chance to do IUZ 6-05 "The Madhouse", I would strongly recommend that they take the opportunity to play it. It is a completely non-linear roleplaying event with all the XP hinging on one thing - good roleplay. It is one huge single-encounter module, written into the space of 15 pages (or so I'm told), including boilerplate. =) Good on you, Britt! i had the good fortune of having britt DM this one when i played it at the con. twas absolutely fantastic. one of the most fun games ive played. pretty much no real combat, and no structure, just roleplaying heaven. it was excelent :D
ezreal2001 10-26-06, 12:37 AM	i had the good fortune of having britt DM this one when i played it at the con. twas absolutely fantastic. one of the most fun games ive played. pretty much no real combat, and no structure, just roleplaying heaven. it was excelent :D One of the best games I've played all year, completely different to "Playing both sides" Although it was funny watching Cynric as tried to do your familiar.
_m_ 10-26-06, 12:45 AM	i cant believe that my poor little baby dargon survied being flaked by a level 11 druid (wildshaped) and a lvl 14 polarbear... spider climbing... on the roof... mad funny.
Japangirl 10-26-06, 02:09 AM	Madhouse was awesome! I just wish I'd played it on my rogue instead of my bard (next time I tell a triad member/author I *really really* want an item, I should probably play the next mod s/he writes with that specific character . . .)
gomeztoo 10-26-06, 03:16 AM	(hopefully soon starting on Taking Flight, the final installment of "Windows to the Serpent's Soul") Good thing I didn't place a bet on the title being "Whipping Tails" ;) Gomez, hoping Chris won't skewer his scenario too much...
Madfox11 10-26-06, 04:22 AM	Such open adventures can be real fun, but they are much more sensitive to the quality and style of your DM and fellow players. Just ask Gomeztoo, he still grumbles about how his fellow players inability to choose ruined one of my adventures for him ;)
_m_ 10-26-06, 08:22 PM	Such open adventures can be real fun, but they are much more sensitive to the quality and style of your DM and fellow players. Just ask Gomeztoo, he still grumbles about how his fellow players inability to choose ruined one of my adventures for him ;) yeah, theres no borederline with open adventures. either the dm and players are good, and its awsum, or the dm or players suck, and it sucks. that said, id rather play them in the hope i get a good one, because its sure as hell worth it.