Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reska 03-06-07, 10:11 PM	My druid has the Dire Tortoise as an Animal Companion. The Dire Tortoise (herefor called the Tank) gets a Surprise Action. In the case of an ambush, how do you determine how to go? I mean other than rolling initiative. For instance, we mess up our spots and listens and get ambushed. The Tank gets a surprise round action. For some reason, though, the Tank wins the initiative. But, since the mobs haven't gone, they haven't revealed themselves. How exactly do I do my surprise action when I have nothing to react to?
bhale187 03-06-07, 10:14 PM	The tank had to make a listen/spot check to detect the enemy or it would not get an action in the surprise round. Intentionally revealed or not the tank knows where they are and gets to take his standard action before they reveal themselves.
Reska 03-06-07, 10:20 PM	The tank had to make a listen/spot check to detect the enemy or it would not get an action in the surprise round. Intentionally revealed or not the tank knows where they are and gets to take his standard action before they reveal themselves. Except it does get an action in the surprise round. Part of its abilities. Now, you're right, it still needs to make the listen/spot to detect them if it wins the initiative... Or maybe my judges just hate the idea of surprise rounds and want to limit me as much as possible. :)
Jay_Ibero_911 03-06-07, 10:22 PM	The tank had to make a listen/spot check to detect the enemy or it would not get an action in the surprise round. Intentionally revealed or not the tank knows where they are and gets to take his standard action before they reveal themselves. Dire tortoise has a special ability that always lets it act on the suprise round no matter what. Ambush round comes before suprise round however, so the baddies would get their ambush actions, then in the suprise round the tortoise would get an action on the druids initiative count (because companions act on the master's initiative), then it would enter normal rounds.
Reska 03-06-07, 10:25 PM	Dire tortoise has a special ability that always lets it act on the suprise round no matter what. Ambush round comes before suprise round however, so the baddies would get their ambush actions, then in the suprise round the tortoise would get an action on the druids initiative count (because companions act on the master's initiative), then it would enter normal rounds. Is there an Ambush Round? I'd always thought that was the surprise round.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-06-07, 10:28 PM	Is there an Ambush Round? I'd always thought that was the surprise round. Ambush round is one better than suprise round. Doesn't come up often because it can completely hose a party. Ambush round means bad guys get full round actions, then a suprise round of standard actions. If you are just in a suprise round with the tortoise, it would indeed need to detect the enemies to target them, but most times suprise rounds don't involve hidden enemies, just enemies you didn't expect to run itno...
Gallaway 03-06-07, 10:36 PM	Bearing in mind that all the actions in a given round are in fact simultaneous and the iniative order is a gaming artifact. The DMG actually points this out somewhere saying that if a PC high in the iniatitive order sets off an area trap the GM is within rights to wait to the end of the round to see where everyone gets to before actually determining who it hits.
zstinger 03-06-07, 11:18 PM	Jay, can you tell me where are the rules describing an ambush round? There was this game where my party ambushed an enemy outpost. We had plenty of time to prepare, buff and chose when to attack. When combat started, my DM only allowed a surprise round standard action. Where can I find rules for this "ambush" round you spoke of?
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 11:28 PM	Ambush Rounds do not exist. -Matt
bitznarf 03-06-07, 11:53 PM	Ambush Rounds do not exist. -Matt What he said.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-06-07, 11:56 PM	Hmm...it seems there is nothing specific in the rules for "ambush" rounds...must have been something specific to the mod I ran into that situation in. The old Core Special "Jungle of Lost Ships"....either that or the DM royally ****ed us....
Mithreinmaethor 03-07-07, 12:00 AM	There are things written into mods that could be considered an Ambush Round but are really an action taken outside of the true rounds. Its run that way because its written that way. I have seen it several times.
Madfox11 03-07-07, 03:49 AM	The easiest sollution to your problem is to simply delay or ready an action. The turtoise knows something is amiss, and is not considered flat-footed anymore, but it just doesn't know what is going on. It is comparably to the Feigh Surprise campaign card with the exception that PCs most often use it to cast a buff spell. As for the ambush round, sounds like a DM allowing the NPCs to ready an action after which he applied the standard surprise round as well.
King Kashue 03-07-07, 04:51 AM	As for the ambush round, sounds like a DM allowing the NPCs to ready an action after which he applied the standard surprise round as well. I.e., Readying an action out of combat... I.e., Something not allowed by the rules... :D On a related topic, the "auto-surprise round" has thankfully made it's way almost completely out of LG (one of many things to thank campaign leadership for). Random Year Two or Three Mod: DM: "Four giants emerge from the bushes 30 feet away, each throws a bouler at you, roll for initiative" Player: "Four giants?" DM: "Yes" Player: "In the Bushes?" DM: "Yes" Player: "30 feet away" DM: "Yes" Player: "Throwing Boulders" DM: "Yes" Player: "So the fact that I'm a 10th level Druid with a +34 spot and listen?" DM: "Evidently not relevant...you'd think it would be, wouldn't you?" Or the T-Rex of Legend in Wretched Soul that auto begins the encounter 30 feet away...Freakin' Ninja T-Rex! Now, Mike Hinds is a genius and such...So you'd think it would occur to him that an 8 ton Biped might make a bit of noise tromping through the forest :D
Madfox11 03-07-07, 07:40 AM	I never said that the DM was correct ;) Note that your example for the giants and the T-rex is something I have been trying to tell DMs since ages: the fact that an adventure does NOT mention Spot and Listen DCs does NOT mean it will be autosurprise. The rules for surprise still need to be followed. Unless the adventure expressly mentions certain rules need to be ignored (hopefully for a good reason) a DM should always follow the basic D&D rules. As an author and reviewer I always hate it I have to repeat the basic surprises rule at every single encounter that might possible involve combat :rolleyes:
Dragon9 03-07-07, 08:49 AM	I.e., Readying an action out of combat... I.e., Something not allowed by the rules... :D As a DM I use "ready actions" outside of combat all the time, whic is just a simple way to set up surprise. And to be fair, i let the players do it too. The other option is to totally annoy the players and make them move across a map in combat rounds the entire time and slow the game down so they don't finih in the alotted time. I've had players whine and cry about such things. Players are tromping through a dungeon making lots of noise, getting into combat. bad Guy in another room hears them. He moves to the door and prepares to strike whoever comes through the door first. Players move up to the door, open said door with no listen check, etc. whammo! Then the crying and wailign and gnashing of teeth start. "You can't have a readied action outside of combat! Waah!" Fine, don't like that? Surprise round. Then they cry that they didn't get listen checks. To which I simply say "You didn't call for a listen check before opening the door. I'm the DM, not your baby sitter. You have to learn to adventure smart on your own. Didn't declare it, didn't do it." The other option: No readied actions outsid eof combat, means, baddie (or PC) sets up to strike who comes through the door first, door opens, init is rolled, maybe baddie goes last and everyone files into the room and proceeds to beat him down. Huh?? Call it a readied action outside of combat, call it a surprise round, the end result is the same and works the way it should. Believe me, if the PCs set up the ambush and you did this to them, they would whine and cry like nobody's business.
ShinAkuma2 03-07-07, 09:05 AM	Hmm...it seems there is nothing specific in the rules for "ambush" rounds...must have been something specific to the mod I ran into that situation in. The old Core Special "Jungle of Lost Ships"....either that or the DM royally ****ed us.... Sounds like you got hosed. There's no such thing as an "ambush round", unless, say, Heroes of Battle has something to add. And who really cares about Heroes of Battle anyway? But as it stands, an "ambush round" is just too much to give the bad guys. In a game where, especially at higher levels, winning initiative means winning the battle, giving the bad guys a full round of uninterrupted action is like handing the the PCs a death warrant.
Reska 03-07-07, 09:27 AM	I know that when I DM (and this is in LG only), I have the players pre-roll d20's before teh adventure (as well as write down their listen and spots). Then, if it comes to the surprise round, anybody making it based on the pre-roll can have the standard action in the surprise round. But in all cases, I still show the mobs on the map before we determine who goes first. Can't really be surprised if there's nothing to surprise you.
Simpi 03-07-07, 09:51 AM	On a related topic, the "auto-surprise round" has thankfully made it's way almost completely out of LG (one of many things to thank campaign leadership for). Yet players still feel the need to stick to Feign Surprise cards, such as one quite rude player who I regularly announces "I have three feign surprises for each combats we will face in this mod. Now the author cannot screw me over" (An actual quote), as if the author would somehow be the "enemy" here... Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Camden 03-07-07, 10:57 AM	I.e., Readying an action out of combat... Or the T-Rex of Legend in Wretched Soul that auto begins the encounter 30 feet away...Freakin' Ninja T-Rex! Now, Mike Hinds is a genius and such...So you'd think it would occur to him that an 8 ton Biped might make a bit of noise tromping through the forest :D He was marching in time to the Drums being banged ;)
Timlagor 03-07-07, 11:54 AM	As a DM I use "ready actions" outside of combat all the time, whic is just a simple way to set up surprise. And to be fair, i let the players do it too. The other option is to totally annoy the players and make them move across a map in combat rounds the entire time and slow the game down so they don't finih in the alotted time. Totallly illegal. Combat Rounds also don't start until there is a reason for them. Just have the PCs move together until something happens. I've had players whine and cry about such things. Players are tromping through a dungeon making lots of noise, getting into combat. bad Guy in another room hears them. He moves to the door and prepares to strike whoever comes through the door first. Players move up to the door, open said door with no listen check, etc. whammo! Then the crying and wailign and gnashing of teeth start. "You can't have a readied action outside of combat! Waah!" Fine, don't like that? Surprise round. [quote] A surprise round is the correct way to handle this. [quote]Then they cry that they didn't get listen checks. To which I simply say "You didn't call for a listen check before opening the door. I'm the DM, not your baby sitter. You have to learn to adventure smart on your own. Didn't declare it, didn't do it."[quote] ARG! That's so horribly wrong it makes my eyes hurt! It would help a lot if you didn't seem to have such contempt for the players -to express contempt for them trying to make you play by the rules is just pathetic. You ALWAYS get REACTIVE spot and listen checks for things like this. You never have to declare an action to get a reactive check. (I once had a DM tell me I would have had to take a move action to have a *chance* of spotting someone -a giant- hiding behind a ridge *after* flying over the ridge so that he was in plain sight) In this particular case the PC's get a penalty to hear something through a door and perhaps a penalty for being distracted. In addition the ambusher isn't moving which could easily be judged worthy of a +20 circumstance bonus on his move silently check. (that's the difference on a moving spot for invisibility after all) You can still ambush them but you should do it within the rules. If they make that listen check they probably heard his heart beating or he adjusted his grip on his sword or something. [quote]The other option: No readied actions outsid eof combat, means, baddie (or PC) sets up to strike who comes through the door first, door opens, init is rolled, maybe baddie goes last and everyone files into the room and proceeds to beat him down. Huh?? Call it a readied action outside of combat, call it a surprise round, the end result is the same and works the way it should. Believe me, if the PCs set up the ambush and you did this to them, they would whine and cry like nobody's business. This is LG. Do it by the rules please.
pedr 03-07-07, 12:15 PM	I tried three times to reply to this thread and got bogged down/confused/concerned I'd end up sounding overly harsh! This is a complex area of the rules - and perhaps that means things ought to be spelled out, correctly, in modules. Each encounter could have a 'set-up' section which lists maximum encounter distance (perhaps randomly determined, or with a note that it is pre-set based on the random distance for the terrain or actual known terrain features), the necessary spot and listen checks to be aware of the enemies and so on. If that doesn't happen, it is incumbent on DMs to know how to do this. Perhaps the most significant point is that it is almost impossible for something to get to appear in melee range and attack in a surprise round unless the path is clear for a charge. And if the path's clear for a charge, then the thing had better be invisible or able to hide in plain site, otherwise it's unlikely it would have had cover behind which to hide. The other exception would be incorporeal things hiding within the ground (essentially a 5' step down, able to 5' step up and attack). Apart from those, though, most melee attackers are going to have to take a move action to get to you - and you'll see them as they do it so that's their surprise action. It's very hard to guarantee a surprise round in LG... and even if you can it's hard to make it something that really swings the battle the way authors / DMs sometimes want it to. I agree with timlagor: use the rules, as written, please, even if they seem inappropriate or odd - people invest in the skills and abilities to be able to use those rules to their advantage. It's not fair to deprive them of that. Remember that some people (such as the Druid that King Kashue is referring to, I believe) can detect the presence of invisible creatures with just their spot checks. From quite some distance, on a good roll. Such PCs should be almost never surprised.
King Kashue 03-07-07, 01:02 PM	Yet players still feel the need to stick to Feign Surprise cards, such as one quite rude player who I regularly announces "I have three feign surprises for each combats we will face in this mod. Now the author cannot screw me over" (An actual quote), as if the author would somehow be the "enemy" here... Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Well, I've played with judges who most certainly saw themselves as the PC's "adversary" (though they're now on the list of judges with whom I will not play), and I know some of them have written modules (and I've played some of those modules)... And I can say that for most of them (small sample it may be) their perspective does not seem to change drastically in the transition from judge to author...
Mattastrophic 03-07-07, 02:38 PM	This is LG. Do it by the rules please. You cannot take the Ready action outside of combat, as per the DMG. However... You CAN declare that you are entering combat, then in your surprise round use the Ready action. I do remember somewhere in the books an example where Lidda runs into a random person in an alley, and they're both sizing each other up. Initiative order was counted down, and neither party elected to do anything. The mechanics to ready actions "outside of combat" are there. There's no Final Fantasy-style fight music and whooshing sound that starts combat. The rules tell us to use initiative in situations in which timing matters. For example, the Fellowship is holed up in a closed room, and they hear goblins coming from down the hall. Legolas readies an action to shoot the first hostile enemy he sees through the holes in the door. In D&D, he can do this, because he's already in combat, even though the goblins haven't shown up yet. To resolve Legolas's readied action, the DM can either: -Roll initiative for everyone who is aware of the combat (in this case, everybody is aware of each other). With this method, after a round of the goblins moving toward the Fellowship, no one would be flat-footed per se, but everyone would be flatfooted against the other combatants... because they aren't aware of the opposition yet. No Spot check lets you see through a wall. -Give Legolas a surprise round, in which he uses his standard action to Ready. Initiative isn't rolled yet for everyone else, because they have not entered the combat. (Legolas is, in this case, in combat all by himself.) But regardless, the rules to handle these situations are there. I know it sounds complex, but they exist. -Matt
Dragon9 03-07-07, 06:04 PM	Totallly illegal. Combat Rounds also don't start until there is a reason for them. Just have the PCs move together until something happens. Says who? There is nothing in the rules that states you cannot have players move in round-by-round fashion all the time.
pedr 03-07-07, 06:14 PM	DMG p22 and the Combat section of the PH would seem to disagree.
Timlagor 03-07-07, 09:02 PM	Matt: The surprise round doesn't start until Legolas fires. If the Goblins are unaware of him *then* then he gets the Surprise round on them and shoots. If they somehow notice him first then they get to act in the surprise round too. If they are fighting someone else while Legolas is waiting for them then they will be in initiative and Legolas can ready (but they won't be flat footed; just unaware of him).
Mattastrophic 03-07-07, 09:09 PM	Matt: The surprise round doesn't start until Legolas fires. It doesn't have to, it can start when Legolas chooses to ready an action. There's no rule that offensive action has to be taken to initiate a surprise round. -Matt
Mattastrophic 03-07-07, 09:14 PM	You ALWAYS get REACTIVE spot and listen checks for things like this. You never have to declare an action to get a reactive check. (I once had a DM tell me I would have had to take a move action to have a *chance* of spotting someone -a giant- hiding behind a ridge *after* flying over the ridge so that he was in plain sight) 100% agreed and supported by the Spot/Listen rules. -Matt
Mattastrophic 03-07-07, 09:19 PM	I've come up with an easy way to determine whether a surprise round happens, and encounter distance: Take the badguys' Hide and Move Silently modifiers. Assume they take 10. Get the total. Then give the players Spot and Listen checks, then use the "-1 for every 10' of distance" rules to determine just when the badguys are spotted/heard. For example: Two rogues attempt to sneak up on the party. They have Hide and Move Silently scores of +15 each. They thus get 25 on their checks. The highest Spot check in the group is 30. Thus, that character sees the rogues when they are 50' away. Roll initiative there. Personally, I like to make it even easier by noting the party's Spot and Listen modifiers on index cards at the beginning of the mod, and do rolling Take 10s, just to make things go even quicker. -Matt
Gallaway 03-07-07, 11:59 PM	Just as an interesting side note. I once GMed a mod sometime after playing it and was suprised upon reading the mod to observe the GM who ran the game for us earlier had apparently been using the preset spot DC's (around 20 to 25 in this particular mod) as hide modifiers and adding D20 to them resulting in spots between 30 and 40 for large creatures at APL6 or so :) I have also heard of(but not come across so it is hearsay) Gm's taking preset encounter DC's (which in theory already take circumstances into account) and modifying them for range cover and so on. I also recall reading somewhere (FAQ ?) that a party can choose to always be taking 10 on spot and listen, but I am not sure where i saw it.
pedr 03-08-07, 03:25 AM	I think that the DMG is reasonably clear that best practice is to only enter combat - i.e. actually roll initiative - when both sides are in a position to affect the others by attacking. At this point, the aware people get a standard action, then everyone else rolls initiative. This doesn't happen when there's a door in the way, in most circumstances. The examples in the DMG cover this reasonably well. You can't ready until you've rolled initiative (because you can't affect your initiative score until you have one).
Timlagor 03-08-07, 12:48 PM	As far as I'm concerned the Surprise round happens when someone attempts something that brings two (or more) groups into conflict. If all parties are aware at that point then there is no surprise round. If the rogues are sneaking up and are spotted before they initiate an attack then they don't get a surprise round. If you don't initiate combat then you don't initiate combat and the surprise round does not begin (yet). You cannot initiate a combat simply in order to be able to ready an action*: combat is initiated by circumstances and actions not intent. * that would make the injunction that you can't ready out of combat completely meaningless. Personally, I like to make it even easier by noting the party's Spot and Listen modifiers on index cards at the beginning of the mod, and do rolling Take 10s, just to make things go even quicker. You were right about determining encounter distances with at least one side hiding (if the rogues attack at a distance further out than they would have been spotted then they get a surprise round). However your "take 10s" is unfair, not up to the judge and possibly illegal anyway. 1) Possibly Completely Illegal Since 'take 10' is the mechanic for a routine job, I don't allow it on reactive checks. I'm not sure if there is anything firm saying it is no allowed however. 2) Not up to the Judge It is up to the player of the character whether they want to 'take 10': they are always entitled to roll. 3) Unfair ..because 4+ people are likely to have at least one roll well above 10. This is muddied by variance in modifiers but will generally be a valid point. Taking 10 for the 'monsters' to hide is fine however.
Timlagor 03-08-07, 12:55 PM	I think that the DMG is reasonably clear that best practice is to only enter combat - i.e. actually roll initiative - when both sides are in a position to affect the others by attacking. At this point, the aware people get a standard action, then everyone else rolls initiative. I think I need to clarify my comments a little. If one of the aware people wants to cast a buff spell or do something else that will make the enemy aware then it does make sense to call that a surprise round. However if the aware parties are content to wait then the combat does not start: I suppose this comes under the heading of making the unaware able to 'affect them by attacking' (which you can't do if you are unaware). It is possible that someone may detect an ambush and choose not to alert their companions (or do so telepathically or by some other undetectable means) without their awareness being detected by the ambushers (who consequently don't launch their attack prematurely. In this case both sides are aware and able to attack each other but combat does not start until they choose to do so... though rounds may well be being tracked.