Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cycloptic_squirrel 01-20-07, 01:55 PM	To gain an improved familiar though the feat (DMG) one has to have a sufficient arcane spellcaster level. I feel it should be based on levels of a class that grants a familiar, but as far as I can tell, it's straight up arcane spellcaster level, whether by wizard, PrC, and/or practiced spellcaster. i.e. a fighter4/wizard3 with practiced spellcaster could obtain a pseudodragon. Am I wrong?
zigspatty 01-20-07, 06:58 PM	To gain an improved familiar though the feat (DMG) one has to have a sufficient arcane spellcaster level. I feel it should be based on levels of a class that grants a familiar, but as far as I can tell, it's straight up arcane spellcaster level, whether by wizard, PrC, and/or practiced spellcaster. i.e. a fighter4/wizard3 with practiced spellcaster could obtain a pseudodragon. Am I wrong? Practiced Spellcaster says "Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells from that class are more powerful....This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells." The feat only improves caster level with regard to spells, it doesn't improve any other aspects of your spellcasting level - no additional familiar abilities, no higher level spells, no increased turning, no additional abilities, no bonus spells or feat, no other benefits of being a higher level in the spellcasting class. Improved Familiar "allows spellcasters to acquire a new familiar from a nonstandard list." Its prerequisites include "sufficiently high arcane spellcaster level." If you substitute the name of any arcane spellcasting class (wizard, sorcerer, bard, etc.) it becomes clear that they're referring to the class level which grants access to a familiar, NOT the caster level of the spell. Usually they're the same. With practiced spellcaster, they're different. Many Arcane prestige classes don't add to the familiar's abilities either, so don't assume that your arcane trickster will qualify. So no psuedodragon for the fighter4/wizard3 even if he's got practiced spellcaster. Patty
Howie23 01-20-07, 07:06 PM	The feat [Practiced Spellcaster]only improves caster level with regard to spells, it doesn't improve any other aspects of your spellcasting level - no additional familiar abilities, no higher level spells, no increased turning, no additional abilities, no bonus spells or feat, no other benefits of being a higher level in the spellcasting class. Patty, do you have a definitive source on this? I agree w/everything you have said other than the last general element. All of the specific things that you mentioned are not tied to Caster Level, and thus gain no benefit from an increased Caster Level. However, Crafting feats have Caster Level as a prerequisite. Practiced Spellcaster is generally viewed as counting toward this prerequisite. In LG, Caster Level is also a prerequisite for items, as well. David
zigspatty 01-20-07, 10:05 PM	Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. Note that a familiar is a class feature that directly ties the familiar's capabilities to the master's class level in classes that grant familiars, not the level at which they can cast spells. Very few arcane prestige classes add to the effectiveness of a familiar because most grant an increased caster level with the caveat that "When a new ... level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting." Familiars and their abilities are not a feature of caster level, they are a feature of the class. The Improved Familiar feat requires a "sufficiently high arcane spellcaster level," shorthand for "a sufficiently high level in an arcane spellcasting class" Wild Mages can have a fluctuating caster level, but their familiars do not increase/decrease their abilities every time their master casts a spell. It's actually debateable whether or not levels in arcane spellcasting classes which do not grant a familiar (bard, arcane trickster, archmage, wild mage) should count towards this requirement (I've assumed that it does), but a fighter level (or other non-arcane spellcaster) clearly does not count. The wiz5/rog3/arcane trickster2 who takes improved familiar to gain a psuedo dragon with all the abilities of a 5th level wizard However, Crafting feats have Caster Level as a prerequisite. Practiced Spellcaster is generally viewed as counting toward this prerequisite. In LG, Caster Level is also a prerequisite for items, as well. So....? Caster level is not the same as arcane spellcaster level. Many prestige classes give only +1 to the caster level of an existing spellcaster class every other level. Even with practiced spellcaster, the number of levels in a spellcasting class will not increase. Patty
Howie23 01-20-07, 10:15 PM	So....? Caster level is not the same as arcane spellcaster level. Many prestige classes give only +1 to the caster level of an existing spellcaster class every other level. Even with practiced spellcaster, the number of levels in a spellcasting class will not increase. I understand that. We don't disagree about that. It sounded to me like you were presenting a statement thatPracticed Spellcaster increased Caster Level for spellcasting only (and thus excluded crafting). If I misunderstood you, my apologies; given that you didn't respond to what I asked about, I fear I wasn't clear. My understanding is that Practiced Spellcaster increases Caster Level, period. The benefits of Caster Level don't go far, and exclude turning, familiars, etc, as you have pointed out. David
zigspatty 01-20-07, 11:25 PM	The use of Caster Level as a requirement for MIC is an LG house ruling that is mostly reasonable but not core. I've seen it generally ruled - including by triad members - that Practiced Spellcaster can help meet this requirement because it raises caster level. It's a generous interpretation that makes the game more fun for some people. I can also see a strong case for the opposite view. The text of the PS feat limits it to only caster level for spell effects like penetrating SR, duration, and other spell effects. Spells per day or spells known is specifically excluded. No mention is made about MIC at all, so it's hard to be definitive. Personally, I'd avoid using PS to meet the MIC requirements for fear that the judge at the table would disallow my item. The Circle could make a definitive ruling on this, but I haven't seen it. Patty
RanielK 01-21-07, 12:01 PM	The use of Caster Level as a requirement for MIC is an LG house ruling that is mostly reasonable but not core. I've seen it generally ruled - including by triad members - that Practiced Spellcaster can help meet this requirement because it raises caster level. It's a generous interpretation that makes the game more fun for some people. I can also see a strong case for the opposite view. The text of the PS feat limits it to only caster level for spell effects like penetrating SR, duration, and other spell effects. Spells per day or spells known is specifically excluded. No mention is made about MIC at all, so it's hard to be definitive. Personally, I'd avoid using PS to meet the MIC requirements for fear that the judge at the table would disallow my item. The Circle could make a definitive ruling on this, but I haven't seen it. Patty One could make the arguement for Practiced Spellcaster working for MIC purposes based on the fact the spells necessary to create an item would be cast at the level the CL states in the items description. The only way an item being created knows you're a 15th level caster is the spell you cast lasts 15 rds/min/hrs/days/years/whatever.
_m_ 01-22-07, 06:44 PM	however, you cannot use practised spellcaster for say, a wiz 3 clr 1 w/ prac spellcaster to make a mystic theurge. thus it makes sense that you couldnt use it to qualify for getting a familiar. you actually have to BE an arcane caster of 7th lvl, not be able to cast AS a 7th lvl caster.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-22-07, 07:35 PM	OK, so practiced spellcaster won't work. I couldn't come up with an argument to suport it, but I did think that's the way it should be, although I did kinda hope I could abuse it (I'm a bad person).
_m_ 01-22-07, 07:51 PM	OK, so practiced spellcaster won't work. I couldn't come up with an argument to suport it, but I did think that's the way it should be, although I did kinda hope I could abuse it (I'm a bad person). lol, i screwed up improved familiar a few times before i got it right. however, in a few lvls, u'll be able to get a blink dog (which, as one might imagine from a failsafe dimension dooring creature) is rediculously usefull. best scout ever :D
cycloptic_squirrel 01-22-07, 08:07 PM	however, in a few lvls, u'll be able to get a blink dog (which, as one might imagine from a failsafe dimension dooring creature) is rediculously usefull. best scout ever :D I'd hate to one up you, but I have a secret motive for this thread: planar familiar. Since I got acess, I've been toying with the idea of lantern archon. It's almost too ridiculous not to take. With this new insight, it's not coming until level 12, but still...
_m_ 01-22-07, 10:13 PM	I'd hate to one up you, but I have a secret motive for this thread: planar familiar. Since I got acess, I've been toying with the idea of lantern archon. It's almost too ridiculous not to take. With this new insight, it's not coming until level 12, but still... duznt really 1 up me im affraid.... the blink dog is my dakon green star adept's familiar (yeah, THAT dakon, the one with nearly a 50 point buy) my familiar is a shadow elemental.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-22-07, 10:42 PM	duznt really 1 up me im affraid.... the blink dog is my dakon green star adept's familiar (yeah, THAT dakon, the one with nearly a 50 point buy) my familiar is a shadow elemental. I've only heard about that Dakon; a bit before I came in, unfortunetly. But if rumors are true, I need to seriously up my cheeze factor if I hope to beat that. Perhaps I could discover a way to abuse a herd of goats...
_m_ 01-22-07, 10:54 PM	abuse a herd of goats... :mymy: um... im not really sure what one says to that...
cycloptic_squirrel 01-22-07, 11:19 PM	:mymy: um... im not really sure what one says to that... You have a dirty mind :P
_m_ 01-22-07, 11:21 PM	You have a dirty mind :P hey! you said it, not me *grin*
DarkKnight 01-23-07, 02:05 AM	As far as Improved Familiar goes it only grants you the ability to gain a non-standard familiar. Where it says on the chart that it goes by Arcane Spellcasting Level. It says in the feat description that if follows all rules regarding acquiring a familiar, which would limit this to classes with Familiar as a class feature. There is however this handy dandy little feat, from Complete Arcane I believe, called "Obtain Familiar" it lets any class that grants arcane casting the ability to get a familiar as a wizard or sorceror. I don't have the book with me but I believe that it allows PrC's to stack with wizard and sorceror levels to determine a familiars abilities too.
RanielK 01-25-07, 03:58 PM	As far as Improved Familiar goes it only grants you the ability to gain a non-standard familiar. Where it says on the chart that it goes by Arcane Spellcasting Level. It says in the feat description that if follows all rules regarding acquiring a familiar, which would limit this to classes with Familiar as a class feature. There is however this handy dandy little feat, from Complete Arcane I believe, called "Obtain Familiar" it lets any class that grants arcane casting the ability to get a familiar as a wizard or sorceror. I don't have the book with me but I believe that it allows PrC's to stack with wizard and sorceror levels to determine a familiars abilities too. That it does. My Wild Mage/Spellsword was planning on taking the feat. Then he got froze in a big ole glacier. :( Along with his little pseudodragon. :weep:
RBNMare 01-26-07, 09:09 AM	Since we are discussing Imporved Familiars. The Share Spells ability, says "if the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires." So here is the question. Can the Master, lets call him Ashford, cast Chill Touch and share it with the familiar, lets call him Crunk. I know that Ashford can have Crunk deliver touch spells, but can they share the spell and both us it. Chill thouch also has an Instantaneous duration. So if that spell is "Shared" would both Ashford and Crunk be able to use the spell even if they were more than 5 feet apart? Thanks for your time.
RedKnightofKet 01-26-07, 09:31 AM	I think you're mixing up Share Spells and Deliver Touch Spells. To share a spell, you cast it on yourself, ie Ashford would be the target, and his familiar would also be a target. The "target" for Chill Touch is who gets drained, so I would advise against targeting yourself for that one. Share Spells is meant for buffing and protection spells, not offensive ones. Deliver touch spells means that you cast Chill Touch with your familiar in contact, and it can hold and deliver the charge for you. You DO NOT both get the spell, but a familiar can possibly get the touch off easier than you can. Since we are discussing Imporved Familiars. The Share Spells ability, says "if the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires." So here is the question. Can the Master, lets call him Ashford, cast Chill Touch and share it with the familiar, lets call him Crunk. I know that Ashford can have Crunk deliver touch spells, but can they share the spell and both us it. Chill thouch also has an Instantaneous duration. So if that spell is "Shared" would both Ashford and Crunk be able to use the spell even if they were more than 5 feet apart? Thanks for your time.
RBNMare 01-26-07, 09:55 AM	First off, Thanks for the reply Redknight. Im still a litte confused. Also was using Chill Thouch as an example. There are a few touch spells that have Instatntaeous durations, guess im looking for a way to abuse that. It has also been a while since i have played and am a little rusty on some rules. Chill Touch has a range of Touch, you must touch a creature or object to affect it. Target Creature or creatures touched. So basically if i cast Chill Touch and my familar is within 5 feet he cant benifit from the casting of that spell and also use the chill touch. thanks agian for your time.
RedKnightofKet 01-26-07, 10:43 AM	There isn't a "benefit" to having Chill touch target you or your familiar. It's a damage inflicting spell. Okay, here's a better example of an instantaneous and beneficial spell (although this is from the Druid side of things, which is my experience): Cure Light Wounds: you target yourself, and share it with your companion (familiar) - you both get the benefit, which is 1d8+ hp back When You are the target, you can choose to share that with the familiar (Bull's Strength, etc work well), making them another target of the spell. They do not get a charge of the spell, although a familiar (if you're 3rd or higher) can deliver that spell for you. There is a feat in PH2 that allows you to do what you're suggesting - we'll find out if it gets made legal soon...
RBNMare 01-26-07, 11:14 AM	Thanks again RedKnight, I have found some more information as well. This is from the "Rules of the Game" Familiars part 2. The master decides when spells are shared. To be shared, the master must cast the spell and the spell must have the master as its target. The spell must have a target entry; effect and area spells cannot be shared. See Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions for a discussion of targets, effects, and areas. Spells with touch range cannot be shared unless the master targets himself with the touch. I think you nailed RedKnight, Thanks I think that animal companions and familiars might differ in how some rules are handled. I was thinking of you CLW example. I also found this in "Rules of the Game" Familars part 2. In spite of the foregoing, some aspects of the master and familiar always remain distinct. The master and familiar have two separate pools of hit points. If the master casts a cure wounds spell, the hit points bestowed must go either to the master or to the familiar. If points are left over after the chosen recipient reaches full hit points, the excess can go to the other pool. In a similar fashion, the master and familiar both have their own ability scores, and magic that enhances or improves an ability score must all go to either the master or the familiar. Finally you said there was something in the PHB 2 that might allow me to do what im thinking, but its not legal yet. I will have to check that out and hope it does become legal. oh yeah, one last thing "Benefit", Betcha didnt think i caught that. Thanks again.
DuctShuiTengu 02-03-07, 02:01 PM	however, you cannot use practised spellcaster for say, a wiz 3 clr 1 w/ prac spellcaster to make a mystic theurge. thus it makes sense that you couldnt use it to qualify for getting a familiar. you actually have to BE an arcane caster of 7th lvl, not be able to cast AS a 7th lvl caster. Actually, you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge with that build because you need to be able to cast 2nd level divine spells. You could use feats and other tricks (I'm not sure what, but I'm sure plenty more exist) to have a caster level of 30, but you don't meet the prerequisite of "Able to cast 2nd level divine spells and 2nd level arcane spells." until you can cast those 2nd level divine and arcane spells. If, on the other hand, the requirement was a caster level of 3 for both arcane and divine spells, you would be able to enter with that build.
Iswald 02-03-07, 07:14 PM	I think that animal companions and familiars might differ in how some rules are handled. I was thinking of you CLW example. I also found this in "Rules of the Game" Familars part 2. In spite of the foregoing, some aspects of the master and familiar always remain distinct. The master and familiar have two separate pools of hit points. If the master casts a cure wounds spell, the hit points bestowed must go either to the master or to the familiar. If points are left over after the chosen recipient reaches full hit points, the excess can go to the other pool. In a similar fashion, the master and familiar both have their own ability scores, and magic that enhances or improves an ability score must all go to either the master or the familiar. Fortunately, these articles are not valid rulings for LG. :) Dragon Breath and spells like it are the ones you want to look at to 'abuse'.