Keep Alter Self Open [Archive] - Wizards Community

Keep Alter Self Open [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drezden
02-09-07, 10:52 AM [Re-posted from larger Polymorph thread to separate out the issues]

Ok, so I am convinced that there is just no way Polymorph can be saved. However, I think if we remove Polymorph from the discussion that Alter self is much easier to defend.

Here are my arguments:

Why Alter Self Should not Be Banned

1. Alter Self is Powerful, But Not Broken

Yes, Alter Self is powerful. The +6 Nat. Armor to AC is a boon for arcane casters. However, as someone else mentioned ("Wizard's barkskin"), it is similar to Barkskin - which is also a 2nd level spell and lasts for 10/ minutes per level. Unlike Barkskin though, Alter self is personal only which makes it less powerful. You can't buff up the party tank with Alter self.

Alter Self basically allows arcane casters to buff their ACs somewhat. However, arcane casters have no way to boost deflection bonus (like Shield of Faith); no way to boost enhancement bonus to armor or shields (like Magic Vestment); and they can't normally wear armor. In addition, they have the lowest hit dice in the game. Alter Self allows them to be a little less vulnerable.

Even if you think Alter Self is more powerful than Barkskin, there is no doubt that there are plenty of other open access mechanics that are more broken than Alter Self. 2 Handed Power Attack, Pounce abilities, EWM - Uncanny Blow or Flurry of Strikes and some of the new PHB2 feats jump to mind. I don't believe Alter Self is near that level of power/brokeness.

2. In LG, There aren't Many Alter Self Options

In more than 200 LG mods I have seen 2 Alter Self forms: troglodyte (95%) and locathah - for the swim speed. That's it. Not very hard to add +6 to AC or figure out your swim speed.

Between the LG restriction on MM forms, the type restriction and the 5 HD cap, there just aren't a lot of forms someone is going to alter self into. In 3.5 there isn't even a legal form that grants flight - meaning that possible use is non-existent.

In short, due to the limited number of options in LG, alter self does not a) spring things on DMs; or b) cause players to have trouble calculating its effects.

3. Polymorph, not Alter Self, Was The Problem

Polymorph is castable on others, changes (physical) ability scores and opens up many more forms - due to no type restriction and upping the HD limit to 15. More important, because you gain more benefits from Polymorph the probable forms are greatly increased from the minimal ones that you will likely see with Alter Self.

4. PHB Spells, like Alter Self, Should Be Banned Sparingly

As Britt stated, "[Since] LG is a core campaign ... the closer [the Circle] can stick to the Core rules, the better." Alter self is in the PHB - the Core Rulebook 1. The bias should be towards keeping it; it should get the benefit of the doubt. Most of the spells closed from the PHB are due to unique issues/problems in the way they relate to a worldwide shared campaign (e.g. Lesser Planar Binding, Clone, simulcrum). Even the closed spells that are overpowered (Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Destruction) are mainly banned because of the way they impact LG - no easy access to True Resurrection, no way to make up for item loss due to highly regulated (i.e. "capped") GP awards.

5. Conclusion

As noted above, with the removal of Polymorph, Alter Self should not be overly problematic to administer. Which brings us back to its power level - which is real reason many people support its banning. While powerful, Alter Self is not "gamebreaking," nor as powerful as other open game mechanics. Further, it goes against the spirit of a "core campaign" to ban a spell from PHB while simultaneously opening up a new expansive list of very powerful material from supplemental books.

Thanks,

Daren

P.S. Did I mention that keeping Alter Self solves the tattoo monk problem?
Jay_Ibero_911
02-09-07, 01:10 PM I heartily aggree...Alter Self, while strong, is not game breaking, and is also MUCH easier to adjudicate than polymorph. Nothing to calculate but some armor, movement, and natural attacks...
frupton
02-09-07, 11:52 PM I agree with this. Polymorph may well be broken, but Alter Self is easily retained without breaking anything.
ShinAkuma2
02-10-07, 01:49 AM I heartily aggree...Alter Self, while strong, is not game breaking, and is also MUCH easier to adjudicate than polymorph. Nothing to calculate but some armor, movement, and natural attacks...

But how will you ever figure out your new skill totals? Adding +4 to Move Silently when becoming a Bugbear is murder on the mind!
Puggle Halfwine
02-10-07, 04:09 AM Although this is not an issue for the LGCS to address (although maybe it is?), I think a small change like: "Irrespective of the form you take, Alter Self adds +4 to your natural armour." would lead to:

a) A complete balancing on Alter Self.

b) A restoration (somewhat) of Alter Self to its original purpose (imho)- becoming another creature for roleplaying purposes.

c) A broad diversification of the 'common' Alter Self self forms. It's gotten so bad that a joke amongst my local gaming community, whenever we encounter troglodytes, is to joke about immediately applying our "counter-wizard" measures such as grappling- since my characters have probably seen two dozen trog-form wizards (or more), but not an actual troglodyte.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drezden 02-09-07, 10:52 AM	[Re-posted from larger Polymorph thread to separate out the issues] Ok, so I am convinced that there is just no way Polymorph can be saved. However, I think if we remove Polymorph from the discussion that Alter self is much easier to defend. Here are my arguments: Why Alter Self Should not Be Banned 1. Alter Self is Powerful, But Not Broken Yes, Alter Self is powerful. The +6 Nat. Armor to AC is a boon for arcane casters. However, as someone else mentioned ("Wizard's barkskin"), it is similar to Barkskin - which is also a 2nd level spell and lasts for 10/ minutes per level. Unlike Barkskin though, Alter self is personal only which makes it less powerful. You can't buff up the party tank with Alter self. Alter Self basically allows arcane casters to buff their ACs somewhat. However, arcane casters have no way to boost deflection bonus (like Shield of Faith); no way to boost enhancement bonus to armor or shields (like Magic Vestment); and they can't normally wear armor. In addition, they have the lowest hit dice in the game. Alter Self allows them to be a little less vulnerable. Even if you think Alter Self is more powerful than Barkskin, there is no doubt that there are plenty of other open access mechanics that are more broken than Alter Self. 2 Handed Power Attack, Pounce abilities, EWM - Uncanny Blow or Flurry of Strikes and some of the new PHB2 feats jump to mind. I don't believe Alter Self is near that level of power/brokeness. 2. In LG, There aren't Many Alter Self Options In more than 200 LG mods I have seen 2 Alter Self forms: troglodyte (95%) and locathah - for the swim speed. That's it. Not very hard to add +6 to AC or figure out your swim speed. Between the LG restriction on MM forms, the type restriction and the 5 HD cap, there just aren't a lot of forms someone is going to alter self into. In 3.5 there isn't even a legal form that grants flight - meaning that possible use is non-existent. In short, due to the limited number of options in LG, alter self does not a) spring things on DMs; or b) cause players to have trouble calculating its effects. 3. Polymorph, not Alter Self, Was The Problem Polymorph is castable on others, changes (physical) ability scores and opens up many more forms - due to no type restriction and upping the HD limit to 15. More important, because you gain more benefits from Polymorph the probable forms are greatly increased from the minimal ones that you will likely see with Alter Self. 4. PHB Spells, like Alter Self, Should Be Banned Sparingly As Britt stated, "[Since] LG is a core campaign ... the closer [the Circle] can stick to the Core rules, the better." Alter self is in the PHB - the Core Rulebook 1. The bias should be towards keeping it; it should get the benefit of the doubt. Most of the spells closed from the PHB are due to unique issues/problems in the way they relate to a worldwide shared campaign (e.g. Lesser Planar Binding, Clone, simulcrum). Even the closed spells that are overpowered (Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Destruction) are mainly banned because of the way they impact LG - no easy access to True Resurrection, no way to make up for item loss due to highly regulated (i.e. "capped") GP awards. 5. Conclusion As noted above, with the removal of Polymorph, Alter Self should not be overly problematic to administer. Which brings us back to its power level - which is real reason many people support its banning. While powerful, Alter Self is not "gamebreaking," nor as powerful as other open game mechanics. Further, it goes against the spirit of a "core campaign" to ban a spell from PHB while simultaneously opening up a new expansive list of very powerful material from supplemental books. Thanks, Daren P.S. Did I mention that keeping Alter Self solves the tattoo monk problem?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 01:10 PM	I heartily aggree...Alter Self, while strong, is not game breaking, and is also MUCH easier to adjudicate than polymorph. Nothing to calculate but some armor, movement, and natural attacks...
frupton 02-09-07, 11:52 PM	I agree with this. Polymorph may well be broken, but Alter Self is easily retained without breaking anything.
ShinAkuma2 02-10-07, 01:49 AM	I heartily aggree...Alter Self, while strong, is not game breaking, and is also MUCH easier to adjudicate than polymorph. Nothing to calculate but some armor, movement, and natural attacks... But how will you ever figure out your new skill totals? Adding +4 to Move Silently when becoming a Bugbear is murder on the mind!
Puggle Halfwine 02-10-07, 04:09 AM	Although this is not an issue for the LGCS to address (although maybe it is?), I think a small change like: "Irrespective of the form you take, Alter Self adds +4 to your natural armour." would lead to: a) A complete balancing on Alter Self. b) A restoration (somewhat) of Alter Self to its original purpose (imho)- becoming another creature for roleplaying purposes. c) A broad diversification of the 'common' Alter Self self forms. It's gotten so bad that a joke amongst my local gaming community, whenever we encounter troglodytes, is to joke about immediately applying our "counter-wizard" measures such as grappling- since my characters have probably seen two dozen trog-form wizards (or more), but not an actual troglodyte.