Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 01:38 PM	Okay, unlike many alignment restricted classes, the Knight doesn't have anything saying it loses anything if it ceases to be lawful. There is the knight's code, but while restricting a few specific actions, it doesn't say anything about if you cease to be lawful. So from what I can tell, a PC could start off as a Lawful Good Knight, then at some point become Neutral Good and take barbarian levels, gain all the benefits of both classes, and not lose anything as long as you still follow the Knight's Code. This feels like it is against the spirit of the rules, but there is nothing in the letter of the rules to indicate that...
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 01:54 PM	If you're allowing yourself to be restricted by a code, that's Lawful to a T. Unless you role-played it in such a way that you broke the code fairly frequently, I'd say you'd have to remain Lawful.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 02:15 PM	If you're allowing yourself to be restricted by a code, that's Lawful to a T. Unless you role-played it in such a way that you broke the code fairly frequently, I'd say you'd have to remain Lawful. That would fly if there was actually an alignment "points" system or something, but as alignment is fairly arbitrairy in LG, with the exception of evil acts potentially leading to evil alignment as decided by the circle/triad, an individuals actions and their alignment are pretty much unrelated in LG. I wish they had just taken the easy way and do it like paladins, a knight who ceases to be lawful loses all class features until he is again lawful, or something to that degree. Also, acting Honorably and acting Lawfully are not the same thing. The Knight's Code is about fighting with honor. There can be honorable thieves, like the "Robin Hood" type who would clearly be described as Chaotic Good, and yet he still holds himself to a code as to who he will steal from. And I think many people are familiar with the honorable barbarian type (Even Goku could be a good example of this, he likes to fight, but he likes a fair fight even better). I guess the Knight is similar to the Monk with regard to alignment changes, you keep everything, but you can only use certain abilities in certain circumstances...monks when unarmored, Knights when fighting fair...Personally, I wouldn't mind some kind of alingment point system for LG, except it would be so hard to make it fair and keep it regulated....
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 02:21 PM	I've asked the same question three times and have never received any ruling one way or the other. In fact, I've never received any ruling at all. Okay, unlike many alignment restricted classes, the Knight doesn't have anything saying it loses anything if it ceases to be lawful. There is the knight's code, but while restricting a few specific actions, it doesn't say anything about if you cease to be lawful. So from what I can tell, a PC could start off as a Lawful Good Knight, then at some point become Neutral Good and take barbarian levels, gain all the benefits of both classes, and not lose anything as long as you still follow the Knight's Code. This feels like it is against the spirit of the rules, but there is nothing in the letter of the rules to indicate that...
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 02:22 PM	I've asked the same question three times and have never received any ruling one way or the other. In fact, I've never received any ruling at all. Glad I'm not the only one thinking about it...
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 02:32 PM	Also, acting Honorably and acting Lawfully are not the same thing. I have to disagree. "Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others. Unless you are willing to act dishonorably once in a while, you're acting Lawfully, and while there are no rules to enforce it, you are being trusted to act within your alignment.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 02:35 PM	I have to disagree. Unless you are willing to act dishonorably once in a while, you're acting Lawfully, and while there are no rules to enforce it, you are being trusted to act within your alignment. Not at all. The description of law was inclusive, using the term AND, meaning Lawful requires ALL of those traits. Possessing only one of them does not make you lawful. A neutral character may be honorable, but have no respect for authority....
ithardin 03-01-07, 03:10 PM	Nothing personal, but the thought of builds with Knight AND Barbarian in it makes me more then a little sick. Please resist the temptation. Ian
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 03:29 PM	Not at all. The description of law was inclusive, using the term AND, meaning Lawful requires ALL of those traits. Possessing only one of them does not make you lawful. A neutral character may be honorable, but have no respect for authority.... If you have no respect for authority, then why do you continue to act within the now-meaningless code? While it's role-playing fluff, a Knight is supposed to be dedicated to some higher power: A deity, or noble, or something similar. If you have no respect for whomever knighted you, then who are you impressing with your willingness to stick to the code? And why would violating the code "undermine the foundation of confidence and honor that drives you forward", penalizing you internally (it's not divine in nature, unlike a Paladin or Druid; it comes from within), if the original source of your title means nothing to you? Sure, looking at the crunch, there's nothing wrong with it. However, D&D is a role-playing game. You need a "why" to go with the "how".
magebeast 03-01-07, 03:38 PM	If you have no respect for authority, then why do you continue to act within the now-meaningless code? While it's role-playing fluff, a Knight is supposed to be dedicated to some higher power: A deity, or noble, or something similar. If you have no respect for whomever knighted you, then who are you impressing with your willingness to stick to the code? And why would violating the code "undermine the foundation of confidence and honor that drives you forward", penalizing you internally (it's not divine in nature, unlike a Paladin or Druid; it comes from within), if the original source of your title means nothing to you? Sure, looking at the crunch, there's nothing wrong with it. However, D&D is a role-playing game. You need a "why" to go with the "how". Perhaps you are anarchic in nature. You believe that externally enforced systems of law are inherently evil, and that all people should be driven by their own internal system of morality. Nihilism is the solution to all alignment problems, really :smirk:
ragecage79 03-01-07, 03:38 PM	Okay, unlike many alignment restricted classes, the Knight doesn't have anything saying it loses anything if it ceases to be lawful. There is the knight's code, but while restricting a few specific actions, it doesn't say anything about if you cease to be lawful. So from what I can tell, a PC could start off as a Lawful Good Knight, then at some point become Neutral Good and take barbarian levels, gain all the benefits of both classes, and not lose anything as long as you still follow the Knight's Code. This feels like it is against the spirit of the rules, but there is nothing in the letter of the rules to indicate that... Actually, read to the end of the Knight section on pg. 30. Ex-knights, knights who are no longer lawful, lose all benefits and uses of their Knight's Challenge ability.
ShinAkuma2 03-01-07, 03:48 PM	Perhaps you are anarchic in nature. You believe that externally enforced systems of law are inherently evil, and that all people should be driven by their own internal system of morality. Then you wouldn't have been a Knight in the first place. Actually, read to the end of the Knight section on pg. 30. Ex-knights, knights who are no longer lawful, lose all benefits and uses of their Knight's Challenge ability. Thank you, ragecage. This, I can deal with.
ithardin 03-01-07, 03:49 PM	Actually, read to the end of the Knight section on pg. 30. Ex-knights, knights who are no longer lawful, lose all benefits and uses of their Knight's Challenge ability. HUZZAH!
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 04:05 PM	Actually, read to the end of the Knight section on pg. 30. Ex-knights, knights who are no longer lawful, lose all benefits and uses of their Knight's Challenge ability. Another great example of how "well organized" these new books are. Okay. That makes things much simpler, and makes nice simple sense. So a 2nd level knight who ceases to be lawful doesn't lose much...
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 04:09 PM	Actually, read to the end of the Knight section on pg. 30. Ex-knights, knights who are no longer lawful, lose all benefits and uses of their Knight's Challenge ability. I'm off to build my Knight 4/Barbarian 1 that wears Mithral Heavy Plate and moves at 40'. (not really)
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 04:26 PM	I'm off to build my Knight 4/Barbarian 1 that wears Mithral Heavy Plate and moves at 40'. (not really) It IS a pretty sweet idea though....Not what I was thinking of, but still fun...
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 04:29 PM	It IS a pretty sweet idea though....Not what I was thinking of, but still fun... I woulda said Mithral Mountain Plate, but Barbs don't get Fast Movement if wearing Heavy armor. But a 9th level Knight can move at full speed while wearing Mithral Mountain Plate. They're the only class that can ignore the movement rules for Mountain Plate.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 04:33 PM	I woulda said Mithral Mountain Plate, but Barbs don't get Fast Movement if wearing Heavy armor. But a 9th level Knight can move at full speed while wearing Mithral Mountain Plate. They're the only class that can ignore the movement rules for Mountain Plate. That is pretty badass. The mountain plate wouldn't even have to be mithal though at that point...
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 04:34 PM	That is pretty badass. The mountain plate wouldn't even have to be mithal though at that point... That is true, but Mithral is so you can add some Dex to your AC. What's even more badass is that a Knight 9/Dread Commando 5 with Heavy Armor Optimization, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization and Mithral Mountain Plate has no Armor Check Penalty. Such a character wouldn't need to purchase the Exotic Armor feat, and could also sneak up on unsuspecting foes or swim without penalties while wearing Mountain Plate and moving at full speed. "Yeah, can't you swim while wearing 250 pounds? I thought everyone could."
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 05:05 PM	That is true, but Mithral is so you can add some Dex to your AC. What's even more badass is that a Knight 9/Dread Commando 5 with Heavy Armor Optimization, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization and Mithral Mountain Plate has no Armor Check Penalty. Such a character wouldn't need to purchase the Exotic Armor feat, and could also sneak up on unsuspecting foes or swim without penalties while wearing Mountain Plate and moving at full speed. "Yeah, can't you swim while wearing 250 pounds? I thought everyone could." Now THAT is hilarious....I love the when little bits of rules come together to totally shatter the limits of absurdity...
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 05:07 PM	Now THAT is hilarious....I love the when little bits of rules come together to totally shatter the limits of absurdity... These are the things I constantly think about. ;)
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 05:11 PM	I also take that back about not needing to take Exotic Armor Proficiency. I think the Knight's Armor Mastery ability only works for armor he's proficient in, and the same goes with the Dread Commando's Armored Ease ability. Still, going from a -9 ACP to a -0 ACP is pretty impressive.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 05:14 PM	I also take that back about not needing to take Exotic Armor Proficiency. I think the Knight's Armor Mastery ability only works for armor he's proficient in, and the same goes with the Dread Commando's Armored Ease ability. Still, going from a -9 ACP to a -0 ACP is pretty impressive. Indeed...swimming as easily in mountain plate as a naked guy...though there is still encumbrance to worry about, and 250lb will put most people into at least their medium load, so they would still suffer SOME penalty just from the weight...
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 05:20 PM	Indeed...swimming as easily in mountain plate as a naked guy...though there is still encumbrance to worry about, and 250lb will put most people into at least their medium load, so they would still suffer SOME penalty just from the weight... Ranger/Knight/Dread Commando Buy a 16+ Str at first, bump Str every chance you get, add +Str gear and you won't have any encumbrance. My Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian can carry close to 300 pounds as a light load. He is at 26 Str before Rage though. Also, Mithral Mountain Plate only weighs 125 pounds.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 05:50 PM	Ranger/Knight/Dread Commando Buy a 16+ Str at first, bump Str every chance you get, add +Str gear and you won't have any encumbrance. My Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian can carry close to 300 pounds as a light load. He is at 26 Str before Rage though. Also, Mithral Mountain Plate only weighs 125 pounds. Well there is that...it's easy to forget that STR scales exponentially...I'm more used to characters with like 100lb light load....
King Kashue 03-01-07, 07:30 PM	Well there is that...it's easy to forget that STR scales exponentially...I'm more used to characters with like 100lb light load.... The load tables can get wonky as hell... My bear warrior warshaper at lvl 15 will have a raging strength of 46, if I can get a bull strength (which someone should have at lvl 15), that goes to 50... So, a Large Quadraped with Str 50? Light Load: 25,536 pounds Medium Load: 51,072 pounds Heavy Load: 76,800 pounds and here's where it gets crazy Push or Drag: 384,000 pounds...Yep, just over 174 metric tons :D
Mithrus 03-01-07, 11:53 PM	That is true, but Mithral is so you can add some Dex to your AC. What's even more badass is that a Knight 9/Dread Commando 5 with Heavy Armor Optimization, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization and Mithral Mountain Plate has no Armor Check Penalty. Such a character wouldn't need to purchase the Exotic Armor feat, and could also sneak up on unsuspecting foes or swim without penalties while wearing Mountain Plate and moving at full speed. "Yeah, can't you swim while wearing 250 pounds? I thought everyone could." Sorry Charlie, this doesn't fly...One reason: Mithril HEAVY armor becomes MEDIUM armor, so the feats no longer apply. I had thought a similar idea with mithril full plate and HAO/GHAO.
Crazy Boro 03-01-07, 11:57 PM	Sorry Charlie, this doesn't fly...One reason: Mithril HEAVY armor becomes MEDIUM armor, so the feats no longer apply. I had thought a similar idea with mithril full plate and HAO/GHAO. Under the description for the armor: "Mountain Plate constructed of any material that would reduce its armor category from heavy to medium (such as mithril) gains all the benefit of the material except the armor category reduction." It even gives example stats for mithril mountain plate right below that and classifies it as heavy armor still.
LachlarlanIII 03-02-07, 12:06 AM	Sorry Charlie, this doesn't fly...One reason: Mithril HEAVY armor becomes MEDIUM armor, so the feats no longer apply. I had thought a similar idea with mithril full plate and HAO/GHAO. Mithral Mountain Plate is an exception to the rule as pointed out by Crazy Boro.
Mithrus 03-02-07, 01:33 AM	Under the description for the armor: "Mountain Plate constructed of any material that would reduce its armor category from heavy to medium (such as mithril) gains all the benefit of the material except the armor category reduction." It even gives example stats for mithril mountain plate right below that and classifies it as heavy armor still. Well I'll be. Wow, yet one more ill-considered concept. Thanks WotC.
King Kashue 03-02-07, 01:57 AM	Well I'll be. Wow, yet one more ill-considered concept. Thanks WotC. Why? Because through an odd combination of Prestige Classes and Feats, a character can get a couple more points of dex bonus out of a set of armor? :confused: That's the only difference in this scenario, half weight and +2 max dex bonus...And that's some fatally broken and ill-conceived problem? :rolleyes:
Madfox11 03-02-07, 04:32 AM	Does it really matter by level 14? My 11th level PC (well, ex-PC) could swim in mithril full plate quiet easily without any feats making it easier. By those levels the armor check penalties are only minor...
LachlarlanIII 03-02-07, 10:27 AM	Does it really matter by level 14? My 11th level PC (well, ex-PC) could swim in mithril full plate quiet easily without any feats making it easier. By those levels the armor check penalties are only minor... How about without wasting any ranks in swim? Could your PC swim while wearing it then?
bitznarf 03-02-07, 10:42 AM	How about without wasting any ranks in swim? Could your PC swim while wearing it then? I didn't realize using skill points to shore up a weakness was considered 'wasting' them. Silly me.
ithardin 03-02-07, 12:23 PM	Champion of Correllon Larethian has some fun armor abilities as well. At 3rd level the max dex of med & heavy armor goes up by 1, this increases to +2 at level 6 and +3 at level 9. At 5th level you no longer reduce your movement when wearing med or heavy armor. This also allows you to spring attack in heavy armor. So imagine all the previous goodness discussed and then imagine its an ELF with a 2 handed d10 weapon that is finesseable AND by then has Bane human and a crit threat range of 15-20 and you see where my ethnocentric elf is heading...