Kobolds: KOS where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kobolds: KOS where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
08-10-07, 10:36 AM Are COR adventures (set in Greyhawk) safe? Is Greyhawk cosmopolitan enough to accept them? If a PC Kobold walks up to the gates of the city, is he killed by the guards?

Hard to find any rule on this and I expect I will be seeing quite a bunch of kobolds appearing in games.

Cheers.

Only found one reference that the Circle may be taking this topic over. Won't be in time for Gencon, so I guess for now it's "oh, you're a kobold...okay."
ZX670
08-10-07, 04:43 PM Being the Free City of Greyhawk, I think they would be pretty safe there, but not positive.
Eric Anondson
08-10-07, 08:36 PM Being the Free City of Greyhawk, I think they would be pretty safe there, but not positive.Free City had nothing to do with acceptance, Free City had to do with its status as independent of other nations. Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk.

[edit] Still, there has been at least one instance where a stunted hill giant (in the Falcon trilogy) was allowed in to start an inn.
Grantor
08-13-07, 12:56 PM Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk.

That doesn't make sense to me. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, and Half-Orcs are all humanoids, according to the rules. Humanoid is just the term for bipedal, intelligent, non-monsterous races.

Now, if it meant to say Monsterous Humanoids...
Eric Anondson
08-13-07, 01:14 PM That doesn't make sense to me. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, and Half-Orcs are all humanoids, according to the rules.AD&D, AD&D, AD&D, AD&D, . . . AD&D had a definition for the term humanoid. It is not the same as how 3e uses the term.

If you are talking about under 3e, you are right that the 3e rules are as you have stated.

If you are talking about AD&D, you are wrong about how the rules use the term "humanoid".

I said AD&D, I meant AD&D not 3e D&D. When I read AD&D canon sources I do not read it with a 3e D&D terminology filter. So when an AD&D canon source says that "humanoids" were barred at the city gates, I know what that means because I know it is being used as an AD&D term. I know better than to read it with a 3e framework of definitions.
Grantor
08-13-07, 04:54 PM Free City had nothing to do with acceptance, Free City had to do with its status as independent of other nations. Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk.

[edit] Still, there has been at least one instance where a stunted hill giant (in the Falcon trilogy) was allowed in to start an inn.

I see why I was confused.

First, you cited AD&D as the reason that Kobolds could not enter the city. Or, to be more specific, it seemed that you were citing the rules as a reason they could not enter, not a sourcebook that described the city.

Second, "AD&D" would have been much more understandable if you had refered to it (at least once), by its non-abbreviated form "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons."

(Lastly, the punctuation of the sentence quoted was a little short of the AP Book of Style standards. But few of us are professional writers, including me, so I am merely making this a parenthetical comment.)

But, what you said makes sense.

In a book (so far unnamed) from the 1e or 2e period of Dungeons and Dragons, it says that Greyhawk guards exclude kobolds, centaurs and other non-player class races from the city. This should exclude half-orcs too, I believe, which is also another problem for players.

Of course, this was several years ago, both in our history and within the campaign history. Perhaps the Free City is more open to trade and racially diverse visitors now? It certainly wasn't mentioned in the most recent source, which describes how LG players interact with the city's laws in game terms.
Eric Anondson
08-13-07, 06:26 PM In a book (so far unnamed) from the 1e or 2e period of Dungeons and Dragons, it says that Greyhawk guards exclude kobolds, centaurs and other non-player class races from the city.The Adventure Begins. Humanoid, as an AD&D term, never included centaur. It was not a synonym for monstrous humanoid. AD&D used the term "nonhuman" for centaurs. This should exclude half-orcs too, I believe, which is also another problem for players.The prejudice against "humanoids" came from the rise of the Orcish Empire of the Pomarj swallowing half of the Wild Coast. All "humanoids" were perceived as potential spies from the Pomarj. Immediately following Greyhawk annexing Safeton in response to the Pomarj's advance through the Wild Coast, Safetonites launched the "Night of Terror", every orc, half-orc, and hobgoblin was "knifed, lynched, or burned alive" [From the Ashes: Campaign Book].

With that in mind, The Adventure Begins says about half orcs in 591 cy,
"Half-orcs are less numerous than they were only a decade ago, largely thanks to public prejudice against anyone with orc features following the Orcish Empire's strike into the Wild Coast in 584 cy. Some half-orcs left the city following several unsolved murders of their kind and general public harassment of them, but those with strong human features who could "pass" in Greyhawk stayed on, keeping a low profile around human refugees from the Wild Coast. This prejudice settled down in late 580s and is at a low ebb now, but is unwise to proclaim orc ancestry in these troubled times.

Regarding "nonhumans"
On any day, a handful of other nonhumans are in town, ranging from a centaur hunter and forester from Celene's Welkwood to a hulking half-orge in the Union of Laborers, kept as a sort of mascot and heavy lifter. Anyone looking like an orc or other humanoid is immediately pointed out by the citizenry and might be arrested by the Watch or Militia for later interrogation. Various nonhumans disguised as humans are almost certain to live undetected among the citizenry; this group includes dopplegangers, Greyhawk dragons, lycanthropes, certain powerful undead such as vampires, and other polymorphed or shapechanged beings. These are rare in the extreme, but might have influence over events out of proportion to their tiny numbers. [The Adventure Begins]
FWIW, AD&D referred to ogre as "giants" not "humanoids" and thus were lumped into "nonhumans". Probably why Gruenab the hill giant proprietor of the Whistling Fish is tolerated.

At the gates?
Not everyone is automatically allowed entry to the city through its outer gates. Citizens of countries hostile to the city are barred, and nearly all humanoids and monsters are turned away (assuming they ask for entry and do not try to force their way in). Any known citizen of the Scarlet Brotherhood, the Empire of Iuz, or the Empire of Turrosh Mak's Orcish Empire of the Pomarj is prohibited from entering the city. A long list exists in each gate house of other perceived enemies of the city who are not allowed entry, particularly persons belonging to evil cults, traitors, major criminals, and beings of hated races such as the drow, derro, ogres, orcs, lizard men, and so on. A gray area exists for unusual beings such as centaurs or pixies, who are not hated but aren't viewed with a great deal of trust, either; fast talk, a pleasant and patient manner, and the usual bribes may help here if normal documents do not suffice.[The Adventure Begins]
So it doesn't explicitly call out kobolds here. We have to go digging for how kobolds are treated in the Domain of Greyhawk.

From the Ashes points out that the only region claimed by Greyhawk where kobolds have been an issue is the Gnarley Forest. The City of Greyhawk claims a chunk of the Gnarley Forest.
". . . Smaller numbers of goblins and kobolds can be found in the hillier forest regions, although gnomes have driven them out of their cave homes there.

All humanoids here are generally opportunistic raiders, attacking gnomes, woodsmen, other humanoids, or whoever else they can kill and eat. They operate in small bands; larger warbands are vary rare. [From the Ashes]

All these cites notwithstanding, the Circle could just rule that in six years' time, Greyhawk has become even more laid back in the face of the Pomarj's rise. Or they could just say that the metalic skin of the Mist Kingdom kobolds is enough to get them past the gates and recognized as "not a threat".
Fakegoatee
08-13-07, 06:45 PM And from the LG Gazetteer (a 3e source), p. 11:

The kobolds, also named celbit, are small, vicious, reptilian scavengers, picked on by every larger race. Their most numerous tribes include the Torturers, the Impalers, the Gougers, the Cripplers, and the Mutilators. Like goblins, they are found in many places.
cetiken
08-13-07, 09:47 PM OTOH, in AD&D kobolds were significantly different and less reptilian than their modern counterparts. It'd be a foolish human to mistake the modern Kobold for a goblin or orc.
GeorgeFHarris
08-14-07, 02:27 PM Free City had nothing to do with acceptance, Free City had to do with its status as independent of other nations. Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk.

[edit] Still, there has been at least one instance where a stunted hill giant (in the Falcon trilogy) was allowed in to start an inn.

Look, if they'll let xvart's in (River of Blood, Dragonscales at Morningtide), then I don't see why they wouldn't let kobolds in.

GH
Eric Anondson
08-14-07, 06:43 PM Look, if they'll let xvart's in (River of Blood, Dragonscales at Morningtide), then I don't see why they wouldn't let kobolds in.Xvarts were not let in in River of Blood. They were snuck in, hid is a basement, and came out at night for their murderous "frolicking". Nothing in the adventure, by my reading implies people were fine with their presence.

Regarding Dragon Scales at Morningtide, the xvarts had a permit to be "within the city limits" for one week, provided they did no evil. The permit seemingly recognized they were from a classification known to be suspicious. While in the River Quarter preaching their cause and the greatness of Raxivort (!?!), they were attacked by good-intentioned Pholtans. They in fact never did evil (though I'm surprised evangelizing for Raxivort didn't count) and instead rid some warehouses of rats to prove the xvarts' good intentions. However they only appeared in Shack Town and the River Quarter.

So getting a permit to be in the city is one thing (cough up some bribes, kobolds!) and who knows how much more it will cost to get through the city gates. The duration for the permit was limited to a week. (New week, new permit? New bribes?) Plus they were attacked on sight by NPCs.

Lastly, both were written by two different authors. I'll leave that thought stand right there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 08-10-07, 10:36 AM	Are COR adventures (set in Greyhawk) safe? Is Greyhawk cosmopolitan enough to accept them? If a PC Kobold walks up to the gates of the city, is he killed by the guards? Hard to find any rule on this and I expect I will be seeing quite a bunch of kobolds appearing in games. Cheers. Only found one reference that the Circle may be taking this topic over. Won't be in time for Gencon, so I guess for now it's "oh, you're a kobold...okay."
ZX670 08-10-07, 04:43 PM	Being the Free City of Greyhawk, I think they would be pretty safe there, but not positive.
Eric Anondson 08-10-07, 08:36 PM	Being the Free City of Greyhawk, I think they would be pretty safe there, but not positive.Free City had nothing to do with acceptance, Free City had to do with its status as independent of other nations. Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk. [edit] Still, there has been at least one instance where a stunted hill giant (in the Falcon trilogy) was allowed in to start an inn.
Grantor 08-13-07, 12:56 PM	Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk. That doesn't make sense to me. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, and Half-Orcs are all humanoids, according to the rules. Humanoid is just the term for bipedal, intelligent, non-monsterous races. Now, if it meant to say Monsterous Humanoids...
Eric Anondson 08-13-07, 01:14 PM	That doesn't make sense to me. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, and Half-Orcs are all humanoids, according to the rules.AD&D, AD&D, AD&D, AD&D, . . . AD&D had a definition for the term humanoid. It is not the same as how 3e uses the term. If you are talking about under 3e, you are right that the 3e rules are as you have stated. If you are talking about AD&D, you are wrong about how the rules use the term "humanoid". I said AD&D, I meant AD&D not 3e D&D. When I read AD&D canon sources I do not read it with a 3e D&D terminology filter. So when an AD&D canon source says that "humanoids" were barred at the city gates, I know what that means because I know it is being used as an AD&D term. I know better than to read it with a 3e framework of definitions.
Grantor 08-13-07, 04:54 PM	Free City had nothing to do with acceptance, Free City had to do with its status as independent of other nations. Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk. [edit] Still, there has been at least one instance where a stunted hill giant (in the Falcon trilogy) was allowed in to start an inn. I see why I was confused. First, you cited AD&D as the reason that Kobolds could not enter the city. Or, to be more specific, it seemed that you were citing the rules as a reason they could not enter, not a sourcebook that described the city. Second, "AD&D" would have been much more understandable if you had refered to it (at least once), by its non-abbreviated form "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons." (Lastly, the punctuation of the sentence quoted was a little short of the AP Book of Style standards. But few of us are professional writers, including me, so I am merely making this a parenthetical comment.) But, what you said makes sense. In a book (so far unnamed) from the 1e or 2e period of Dungeons and Dragons, it says that Greyhawk guards exclude kobolds, centaurs and other non-player class races from the city. This should exclude half-orcs too, I believe, which is also another problem for players. Of course, this was several years ago, both in our history and within the campaign history. Perhaps the Free City is more open to trade and racially diverse visitors now? It certainly wasn't mentioned in the most recent source, which describes how LG players interact with the city's laws in game terms.
Eric Anondson 08-13-07, 06:26 PM	In a book (so far unnamed) from the 1e or 2e period of Dungeons and Dragons, it says that Greyhawk guards exclude kobolds, centaurs and other non-player class races from the city.The Adventure Begins. Humanoid, as an AD&D term, never included centaur. It was not a synonym for monstrous humanoid. AD&D used the term "nonhuman" for centaurs. This should exclude half-orcs too, I believe, which is also another problem for players.The prejudice against "humanoids" came from the rise of the Orcish Empire of the Pomarj swallowing half of the Wild Coast. All "humanoids" were perceived as potential spies from the Pomarj. Immediately following Greyhawk annexing Safeton in response to the Pomarj's advance through the Wild Coast, Safetonites launched the "Night of Terror", every orc, half-orc, and hobgoblin was "knifed, lynched, or burned alive" [From the Ashes: Campaign Book]. With that in mind, The Adventure Begins says about half orcs in 591 cy, "Half-orcs are less numerous than they were only a decade ago, largely thanks to public prejudice against anyone with orc features following the Orcish Empire's strike into the Wild Coast in 584 cy. Some half-orcs left the city following several unsolved murders of their kind and general public harassment of them, but those with strong human features who could "pass" in Greyhawk stayed on, keeping a low profile around human refugees from the Wild Coast. This prejudice settled down in late 580s and is at a low ebb now, but is unwise to proclaim orc ancestry in these troubled times. Regarding "nonhumans" On any day, a handful of other nonhumans are in town, ranging from a centaur hunter and forester from Celene's Welkwood to a hulking half-orge in the Union of Laborers, kept as a sort of mascot and heavy lifter. Anyone looking like an orc or other humanoid is immediately pointed out by the citizenry and might be arrested by the Watch or Militia for later interrogation. Various nonhumans disguised as humans are almost certain to live undetected among the citizenry; this group includes dopplegangers, Greyhawk dragons, lycanthropes, certain powerful undead such as vampires, and other polymorphed or shapechanged beings. These are rare in the extreme, but might have influence over events out of proportion to their tiny numbers. [The Adventure Begins] FWIW, AD&D referred to ogre as "giants" not "humanoids" and thus were lumped into "nonhumans". Probably why Gruenab the hill giant proprietor of the Whistling Fish is tolerated. At the gates? Not everyone is automatically allowed entry to the city through its outer gates. Citizens of countries hostile to the city are barred, and nearly all humanoids and monsters are turned away (assuming they ask for entry and do not try to force their way in). Any known citizen of the Scarlet Brotherhood, the Empire of Iuz, or the Empire of Turrosh Mak's Orcish Empire of the Pomarj is prohibited from entering the city. A long list exists in each gate house of other perceived enemies of the city who are not allowed entry, particularly persons belonging to evil cults, traitors, major criminals, and beings of hated races such as the drow, derro, ogres, orcs, lizard men, and so on. A gray area exists for unusual beings such as centaurs or pixies, who are not hated but aren't viewed with a great deal of trust, either; fast talk, a pleasant and patient manner, and the usual bribes may help here if normal documents do not suffice.[The Adventure Begins] So it doesn't explicitly call out kobolds here. We have to go digging for how kobolds are treated in the Domain of Greyhawk. From the Ashes points out that the only region claimed by Greyhawk where kobolds have been an issue is the Gnarley Forest. The City of Greyhawk claims a chunk of the Gnarley Forest. ". . . Smaller numbers of goblins and kobolds can be found in the hillier forest regions, although gnomes have driven them out of their cave homes there. All humanoids here are generally opportunistic raiders, attacking gnomes, woodsmen, other humanoids, or whoever else they can kill and eat. They operate in small bands; larger warbands are vary rare. [From the Ashes] All these cites notwithstanding, the Circle could just rule that in six years' time, Greyhawk has become even more laid back in the face of the Pomarj's rise. Or they could just say that the metalic skin of the Mist Kingdom kobolds is enough to get them past the gates and recognized as "not a threat".
Fakegoatee 08-13-07, 06:45 PM	And from the LG Gazetteer (a 3e source), p. 11: The kobolds, also named celbit, are small, vicious, reptilian scavengers, picked on by every larger race. Their most numerous tribes include the Torturers, the Impalers, the Gougers, the Cripplers, and the Mutilators. Like goblins, they are found in many places.
cetiken 08-13-07, 09:47 PM	OTOH, in AD&D kobolds were significantly different and less reptilian than their modern counterparts. It'd be a foolish human to mistake the modern Kobold for a goblin or orc.
GeorgeFHarris 08-14-07, 02:27 PM	Free City had nothing to do with acceptance, Free City had to do with its status as independent of other nations. Under AD&D, using the term "humanoid" which included kobolds in AD&D terminology, "humanoids" were not allowed entrance to the city of Greyhawk. [edit] Still, there has been at least one instance where a stunted hill giant (in the Falcon trilogy) was allowed in to start an inn. Look, if they'll let xvart's in (River of Blood, Dragonscales at Morningtide), then I don't see why they wouldn't let kobolds in. GH
Eric Anondson 08-14-07, 06:43 PM	Look, if they'll let xvart's in (River of Blood, Dragonscales at Morningtide), then I don't see why they wouldn't let kobolds in.Xvarts were not let in in River of Blood. They were snuck in, hid is a basement, and came out at night for their murderous "frolicking". Nothing in the adventure, by my reading implies people were fine with their presence. Regarding Dragon Scales at Morningtide, the xvarts had a permit to be "within the city limits" for one week, provided they did no evil. The permit seemingly recognized they were from a classification known to be suspicious. While in the River Quarter preaching their cause and the greatness of Raxivort (!?!), they were attacked by good-intentioned Pholtans. They in fact never did evil (though I'm surprised evangelizing for Raxivort didn't count) and instead rid some warehouses of rats to prove the xvarts' good intentions. However they only appeared in Shack Town and the River Quarter. So getting a permit to be in the city is one thing (cough up some bribes, kobolds!) and who knows how much more it will cost to get through the city gates. The duration for the permit was limited to a week. (New week, new permit? New bribes?) Plus they were attacked on sight by NPCs. Lastly, both were written by two different authors. I'll leave that thought stand right there.