Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 01-19-08, 08:43 PM	From the Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook pg13: In regards to weapons the rules are: It is legal to carry the following weapon types: dagger, dart, sling, staff, club, hammer, and other light weapons. They should be tied to one's belt or in a scabbard whenever possible. Swords, axes, and other similar melee weapons can ber carried through the streets but they must be in a scabbard or leather head-case. Characters wanting to carry such weapons in the city must purchase a license (5 gp for one-handed, 20gp for two-handed weapons). Licenses are valid for one week. Polearms, spears and other large weapons such as crossbows and bows are banned. Visitors must deposit these with the guild of Nightwatchmen who maintain a secure storage facility warded with powerful magics maintained by the Guild of Wizardry. There are many weapons that could concievably fall into multiple categories, or possibly none of these. For instance, is a Goliath Greathammer a permitted weapon as it is a type of hammer? Or does it fall into the "large weapons" category making it completely banned? I don't see it being banned because while it may be on the large size, it is still a hammer, and has nothing in common with the examples given other than being a two handed weapon. What about a warhammer? It's a hammer, but it is also a martial melee weapon. I think the rules should be reduced to going by weapon type (simple, martial, exotic) and handedness. The rules as-is partially follow this, for example by allowing 2 handed swords and axes, but with a higher license type. Also, does a greatclub constitute a legal weapon, or does it require a license or is it banned? A greatclub is also "large", but it's also a club....Too much room for interpretation...
Swiftbrook 01-19-08, 09:06 PM	I don't have an answer, but I do have some background. The City of Greyhawk weapon rules were written for AD&D 2.0 (maybe even 1.0) and ported to the Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook. The text is almost word for word from Greyhawk: Folk, Feuds, and Factions page 13. -Swiftbrook
Jay_Ibero_911 01-19-08, 09:07 PM	I don't have an answer, but I do have some background. The City of Greyhawk weapon rules were written for AD&D 2.0 (maybe even 1.0) and ported to the Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook. The text is almost word for word from Greyhawk: Folk, Feuds, and Factions page 13. -Swiftbrook Well that's interesting...
Samwise 01-19-08, 10:27 PM	In terms of background, a hammer is just a light hammer, as a club is just a club, and not a greatclub. Overall, using said background, the categories should break down as: Weapons you do not need a license for 1-handed Weapons and 2-handed Weapons (bastard swords and similar exotic weapons are 2-handed weapons) you can buy licenses for Reach weapons and any bows can not be licensed (unless you have an affiliation benefit, an AR favor, or one of those new cards) At least that is how I interpret it.
Vamroc 01-20-08, 12:04 AM	From the Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook pg13: There are many weapons that could conceivably fall into multiple categories, or possibly none of these. For instance, is a Goliath Greathammer a permitted weapon as it is a type of hammer? Or does it fall into the "large weapons" category making it completely banned? I don't see it being banned because while it may be on the large size, it is still a hammer, and has nothing in common with the examples given other than being a two handed weapon. What about a warhammer? It's a hammer, but it is also a martial mêlée weapon. I think the rules should be reduced to going by weapon type (simple, martial, exotic) and handedness. The rules as-is partially follow this, for example by allowing 2 handed swords and axes, but with a higher license type. Also, does a greatclub constitute a legal weapon, or does it require a license or is it banned? A greatclub is also "large", but it's also a club....Too much room for interpretation... Let me sort this out A Goliath Greathammer is a two handed Large melee Weapon unless you are a Goliath then it's just a hammer and you wouldn't be allowed in to the city anyway. A greatclub is a two handed martial melee weapon and just like most weapons they are of no inherent size the PC needs a permit because its a two handed weapon. A warhammer is a one handed martial melee weapon that requires a permit. Have we noticed a trend. Weapons that don't require permits are all one handed simple weapons. Slings, darts, and javelins are the only ranged weapons you can carry in the city with out a permit. Light Martial melee weapons also do not require a permit and you must use a scabbard to sheathe short swords.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-20-08, 01:02 AM	Let me sort this out A Goliath Greathammer is a two handed Large melee Weapon unless you are a Goliath then it's just a hammer and you wouldn't be allowed in to the city anyway. A greatclub is a two handed martial melee weapon and just like most weapons they are of no inherent size the PC needs a permit because its a two handed weapon. A warhammer is a one handed martial melee weapon that requires a permit. Have we noticed a trend. Weapons that don't require permits are all one handed simple weapons. Slings, darts, and javelins are the only ranged weapons you can carry in the city with out a permit. Light Martial melee weapons also do not require a permit and you must use a scabbard to sheathe short swords. Except there is NO trend. There is nothing but a few specific weapon TYPES listed, with no clarification regarding weapons that could fall into multiple categories. You are doing nothing but making assumptions. As written, there are no rules at all for what is required for a greatclub, except if it falls into the category of regular clubs. You are also making an assumption about the warhammer. The category of weapons that you may purchase a license for only mentions swords and axes, and "other similar weapons". A Warhammer is in no way similar to a sword or an axe. Let me do a rundown of PHB weapons and what category they would fall into according to the rules as written: All light weapons: No permit needed. One handed simple weapons: Club: No permit needed explicitly. Heavy Mace: Fits no specific category. Morningstar: Fits no specific category. Shortspear: Explicitly banned for being a type of spear OR Fits no specific category. Two handed simple weapons: Longspear: Explicitly banned for being a type of spear. Quarterstaff: No permit needed explicitly. Spear: Explicitly banned for being a type of spear. Ranged simple weapons: Heavy Crossbow: Explicitly banned for a being a type of crossbow. Light Crossbow: Explicitly banned for a being a type of crossbow. Dart: No permit needed explicitly. Javellin: Fits no specific category. Sling: No permit needed explicitly. One handed martial weapons: Battleaxe: Explicitly allowed with 5gp permit. Flail: Fits no specific category. Longsword: Explicitly allowed with 5gp permit. Heavy Pick: Fits no specific category. Rapier: Explicitly allowed with 5gp permit. Scimitar: Explicitly allowed with 5gp permit. Heavy Shield: Fits no specific category. Spiked Heavy Shield: Fits no specific category. Trident: Fits no specific category. Warhammer: No permit needed because it's a type of hammer OR fits no specific category. Two handed martial weapons: Falchion: Explicitly allowed with 20gp permit. Glaive: Explicitly banned as a polearm. Greataxe: Explicitly allowed with 20gp permit. Greatclub: No permit needed because it's a type of club OR fits no specific category. Heavy Flail: Fits no specific category. Greatsword: Explicitly allowed with 20gp permit. Guisarme: Explicitly banned as a polearm. Halberd: Explicitly banned as a polearm OR fits no specific category. Lance: Explicitly banned as a polearm OR fits no specific category. Ranseur: Explicitly banned as a polearm. Scythe: Fits no specific category. Ranged martial weapons: Longbow: Explicitly banned as a bow. Shortbow: Explicitly banned as a bow. Exotic one handed weapons: Bastard Sword: Explicitly allowed, but is what is the permit cost? Based on how the character wields it? Dwarven Waraxe: Explicitly allowed, but is what is the permit cost? Based on how the character wields it? Whip: Fits no specific category. Exotic two handed weapons: Orc Double Axe: Explicitly allowed with 20gp permit. Spiked Chain: Fits no specific category. Dire Flail: Fits no specific category. Gnome Hooked Hammer: Fits no specific category. Two Bladed Sword: Explicitly allowed with 20gp permit. Dwarven Urgosh: Fits no specific category OR banned for having a spear head. Exotic ranged weapons: Bolas: Fits no specific category. Hand Crossbow: Explicitly banned as a crossbow. Heavy Repeating Crossbow: Explicitly banned as a crossbow. Light Repeating Crossbow: Explicitly banned as a crossbow. Net: Fits no specific category. Shuriken: Fits no specific category. As you can see from just the PHB weapons alone, the rules as written fail to cover many different types of weapons. The rules need to be refined so that ALL weapons will explicitly fit into ONE and only ONE category. Something along the lines of what has previously been suggested: All weapon categories based on how the weapon is used when wielded by a creature of the size the weapon is sized for. For exotic weapons that become one handed with exotic weapon proficiency, they are still treated as two handed for permit purposes. A thrown weapon is any weapon that can be thrown and can't be used to make a melee attack without an attack penalty. All light melee weapons: No permit needed, unless weapon falls into banned category. All thrown weapons: No permit needed, unless weapon falls into another category. All one handed melee weapons: Allowed w/5gp permit, unless weapon falls into banned category. All two handed melee weapons: Allowed w/20gp permit, unless weapon falls into banned category. All reach weapons: Banned. All Bows and Crossbows: Banned. A rule set like this would be much clearer and leaves no weapon in a grey area off the top of my head. I also think it follows the intent of the rules, as far as restricting weapons most likely to be used to disturb the peace, not that the peace won't be disturbed anyway regardless of what weapons are available...
bitznarf 01-20-08, 03:28 AM	A goliath greathammer is a medium weapon, just like all others. Goliaths just use a large sized one by default.
JohnduBois 01-20-08, 09:21 AM	All weapon categories based on how the weapon is used when wielded by a creature of the size the weapon is sized for. For exotic weapons that become one handed with exotic weapon proficiency, they are still treated as two handed for permit purposes. A thrown weapon is any weapon that can be thrown and can't be used to make a melee attack without an attack penalty. All light melee weapons: No permit needed, unless weapon falls into banned category. All thrown weapons: No permit needed, unless weapon falls into another category. All one handed melee weapons: Allowed w/5gp permit, unless weapon falls into banned category. All two handed melee weapons: Allowed w/20gp permit, unless weapon falls into banned category. All reach weapons: Banned. All Bows and Crossbows: Banned. This ruling makes a lot of sense and, except for exceptions explicitly noted in the book, will be what I use at my tables, I think.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-20-08, 12:37 PM	A goliath greathammer is a medium weapon, just like all others. Goliaths just use a large sized one by default. Oh I wasn't using the term "large" in a mechanical sense. I just meant that in comparison to a wielder of an appropriate size that the weapon is about as big as they get, and that it's difficult to determine what the rules as written consider to be a large weapon. This ruling makes a lot of sense and, except for exceptions explicitly noted in the book, will be what I use at my tables, I think. Just curious, what exceptions did I miss? I'd like to revise my version to be as inclusive as possible...
Vamroc 01-20-08, 04:57 PM	The trend is all of the weapons that do not require permits were not originally used for combat and as such are not seen as a threat to the cities defenses.