Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clik_ml 02-08-07, 04:34 PM	This is regarding the shift to the polymorph errata as it relates to Alternate Form and Constitution/HP changes. I'm not wild at all about this change due to that severing HP from Constitution simply does not work as written. Per the Alternate Form erratum, HP are not to change despite a change in Constitution modifier when assuming an Alternate Form with a different Constitution modifier. There are no further explanations for what happens when a creature who is in an Alternate Form has their Constitution modifier altered after changing form. Per the rules, every time the Constitution modifier is changed, HP are to be recalculated based upon that new number (with the exception of changes caused by Alternate Form). So we have several cases where odd things happen after a creatures assumes an Alternate Form. 1) Said creature is affected by a Constitution drain or Constitution damage. 2) Said creature is affected by a Constitution bonus. 3) Said creature was already affected by a temporary Constitution bonus (or penalty) before assuming Alternate Form. By RAW, these changes are not impeded by the Alternate Form's stipulation on not modifying hitpoints due to changes in Constitution modifiers, and thus the new Constitution modifier must be used to recalculate hit points. This gives a simple loop-hole where the intent of not letting druids have animal constution modifiers is totally circumvented. If we extend the language of the Alternate Form erratum to make it more stringent, and prevent that loop-hole (say, "when a creature in an Alternate Form, any change in Constitution Modifier has no effect on the creature's HP total"), then we still have problems with cases 1 and 3. In case 1, creatures in Alternate Form who cannot have their HP be modified by Constitution modifier changes become immune to Constitution drain and damage until the point at which they reach a 0 Constitution, in which case they die... assuming they haven't taken another Alternate Form to reset their Constitution to a healthier total. In case 3, creatures in Alternate Form who cannot have their HP be modified by following Constitution modifier changes can pre-buff via Bear's Endurance or an Amulet of Health and carry their pre-Alternate Form HP, despite the buffs wearing off afterwards even. So the Alternate Form erratum doesn't fix anything. It just requires table rulings by DMs on which version of Alternate Form is going to let Druids abuse their Constitution modifier today. When instituting this errata I hope that a dispel confusion will be tagged with it, giving DMs some guidelines of how to rule on this mess. - Erik ML ((If we were serious about an actual fix for pinning native Constitution modifiers to HP no matter what Alternate Form is taken, then all we have to do is stipulate that Alternate Form does not modify Constitution scores whatsoever. I know that this is out of the scope of LG as the Circle does not have any authority to issue or create erratum, but hopefully someone in WotC reads these too.)) [edit: I somehow missed the Polymorph thread, but I prefer this as a separate thread anyway as the scope is much narrower: how to rule on Con modifier changes and HP changes in a post errata world, and hopes that guidelines will be disclosed either in the LGCS 597 or in a concurrent Dispel Confusion]
Samwise 02-08-07, 11:50 PM	I think you are simply over-analyzing everything and not just using the simplest, most obvious, answers, in the absence of any definitive clarifying statement from a certified authority. Alternate form does not alter your hp because of the Con change. That's it. That is the only change to the standard rule that a change in Con changes your hp. It doesn't say that your Con, or other abilities, can't be changed further, for whatever reason. It doesn't say other sources don't cause the normal modifiers. It doesn't say anything else about any other rule. So . . . If a druid wildshapes and: Has bear's endurance cast on him, his hp go up. Had bear's endurance cast on him, the spell increases his "new" Con score, and he retains the increased hp he had before. Is poisoned, his Con goes down and his hp go down. Is poisoned and loses more Con than he has in human form, he dies when he returns to human form because the same overall penalty is applied to his Con. The rule change cites only one specific item, and thus affects only that one specific item.
clik_ml 02-09-07, 08:52 AM	It doesn't say that your Con, or other abilities, can't be changed further, for whatever reason. It doesn't say other sources don't cause the normal modifiers. It doesn't say anything else about any other rule. I concur. There's a lot of things it doesn't say. :-) That's at the heart of my complaint. If a druid wildshapes and: Is poisoned and loses more Con than he has in human form, he dies when he returns to human form because the same overall penalty is applied to his Con. Also... It doesn't say you keep separate tracks of constitution modifers after assuming an alternate form (as you seem to imply should be done). This presumption is at least as unfounded as any of mine. It doesn't say that you are subject to death when losing more points than your native con, despite having a positive constitution score in your current assumed form. Here's the only relevant rule regarding Constitution and calculating HP: If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly. The trouble with that rule's wording is that it is unclear whether one: A) uses the new modifier to calculate HP (which was my original interpretation, but I'm becoming less enchanted with it each passing moment), or B) uses the difference in modifiers to calculate the change in HP (which is close to your method, but does not invoke the necessity of keeping 2 constitution tracks). Before the Alternate Form erratum, the distinction was irrelevant, now it makes a world of difference since Con modifier and HP total become temporarily disjoined. I reckon that the best ruling would likely be (B), that differences in Con modifiers are used to calculate changes in HP. Then, without creating any new mechanics it would follow that death from Con drain/damage only occurs when your current assumed form's Con equals zero or less (irrespective of your native Con). - Erik ML
sibyl 02-09-07, 10:50 AM	I do agree that divorcing wildshape CON from hitpoints does create some awkward situations when other CON boosts and drains happen, but as a player and a judge I have to go with Samwise here and take the simplest path - the only CON adjustment that doesn't affect hitpoints is the wildshape adjustment. I would be simplest of all to not have CON change at all, but that's not what we have to work with. Personally, if I'm going to go for B. Endurance at all, it'll be before the wildshape, not after.
Samwise 02-09-07, 04:27 PM	I concur. There's a lot of things it doesn't say. :-) That's at the heart of my complaint. And so your complain is moot. You are looking for rules that simply don't exist. Naturally no one can demonstrate them to you. Also... It doesn't say you keep separate tracks of constitution modifers after assuming an alternate form (as you seem to imply should be done). This presumption is at least as unfounded as any of mine. It is not a presumption, it is an inevitable conclusion. It doesn't say that you are subject to death when losing more points than your native con, despite having a positive constitution score in your current assumed form. Again, it doesn't have to, in this case because it isn't true. You die when you Con reaches 0. If your Con changes, then you have different 0 points. If you are poisoned while under a Bull's Strength spell, will you die when it runs out? Yes. The same with wildshape, even if the Con change doesn't affect your hp.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 04:46 PM	And so your complain is moot. You are looking for rules that simply don't exist. Naturally no one can demonstrate them to you. It is not a presumption, it is an inevitable conclusion. Again, it doesn't have to, in this case because it isn't true. You die when you Con reaches 0. If your Con changes, then you have different 0 points. If you are poisoned while under a Bull's Strength spell, will you die when it runs out? Yes. The same with wildshape, even if the Con change doesn't affect your hp. So you are suggesting that con damage/drain/penalty must be tracked independent of your form, then subtracted from the total con of whatever your current form is, regardless of how many times you change form? For example, a human druid with 14 CON naturally shapes into a rhino, a rhino has 21 CON. While in rhino form he is subjected to 12 points of con damage, reducing his rhino form to 9 con. To escape, he shapes into an Eagle to try to fly away. An Eagle only has 12 con. Does he die immediately because 12-12=0, or because he changed shape is his con reset from 9 as the con damaged rhino to 12, the normal for an eagle? If Con, as well as any other ability score reset, can the druid just spend a wildshape use and a standard action to change into a new rhino with full con? And When he changes back into his natural form, are all his scores reset too, or would his con be his normal total minus any con damage? HP damage is easily tracked as your HD and HP no longer change, however your abilities do, creating the problems outlined above.
Samwise 02-09-07, 05:00 PM	I don't have to suggest it, the rules require you to track such damage. (With the specific circumstances and limits of reaching 0.) Changing or not changing form is absolutely irrelevant. How else are you supposed to know how many points of damage or drain you must heal, magically or naturally, if you don't keep track of it? How else are you supposed to know if another ray of enfeeblement reduces your Strength further? I am not sure how you could even imagine that you would not die if you wildshape in the manner you give in your example. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that changing forms completely removes any and all ability damage, drain, or penalty. There is absolutely no problem at all there, other than trying to get free ability healing when changing form. As for trying to link this in some way to a lack of hp gain from a Con change, that is simply outrageous. The two have nothing to do with each other. If this change were not being made would you expect a PC to survive changing form in such a manner? Addition: Page 8 of the current FAQ: If a wild shaped character takes Constitution damage or drain, which Con score do I use to determine when the character is killed by being reduced to 0 Con—the original score or the new one? Use the character’s current Constitution score, just as you would for any other character. If a 6-Con druid wild shapes into a 17-Con dire badger and takes 8 points of Constitution damage and/or drain while in that form, the character would instantly die upon returning to normal form. And, just because it is the entry above it: As per the errata for wild shape, despite an altered Constitution score the character’s hit points do not change accordingly. Does this mean that regardless of Constitution changes while wild shaped a character’s hit points are unaffected? No. Any changes to a wild shaped character’s Constitution score that occur after the change (such as a timely bear’s endurance spell or a Constitution-damaging poison) would have the full normal effect (including altering hit points).
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 05:11 PM	I don't have to suggest it, the rules require you to track such damage. (With the specific circumstances and limits of reaching 0.) Changing or not changing form is absolutely irrelevant. How else are you supposed to know how many points of damage or drain you must heal, magically or naturally, if you don't keep track of it? How else are you supposed to know if another ray of enfeeblement reduces your Strength further? I am not sure how you could even imagine that you would not die if you wildshape in the manner you give in your example. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that changing forms completely removes any and all ability damage, drain, or penalty. There is absolutely no problem at all there, other than trying to get free ability healing when changing form. As for trying to link this in some way to a lack of hp gain from a Con change, that is simply outrageous. The two have nothing to do with each other. If this change were not being made would you expect a PC to survive changing form in such a manner? Addition: Page 8 of the current FAQ: If a wild shaped character takes Constitution damage or drain, which Con score do I use to determine when the character is killed by being reduced to 0 Con—the original score or the new one? Use the character’s current Constitution score, just as you would for any other character. If a 6-Con druid wild shapes into a 17-Con dire badger and takes 8 points of Constitution damage and/or drain while in that form, the character would instantly die upon returning to normal form. And, just because it is the entry above it: As per the errata for wild shape, despite an altered Constitution score the character’s hit points do not change accordingly. Does this mean that regardless of Constitution changes while wild shaped a character’s hit points are unaffected? No. Any changes to a wild shaped character’s Constitution score that occur after the change (such as a timely bear’s endurance spell or a Constitution-damaging poison) would have the full normal effect (including altering hit points). Ah, there's what I was looking for. Actually quoting the rules as opposed to making arguments that are baseless without them. And the very exististance of the FAQ entry suggests how easily one could come to the opposite conclusion.
Samwise 02-09-07, 05:20 PM	My reasoning wasn't baseless, it was derived from the full content and context of the rules. If you want to ignore that and cheat, by trying to contrive that using wild shape heals all ability drain or damage, then you establish a basis to ignore any decision a DM at a table makes. The FAQ is searchable. It took me all of five minutes to find that entry, including the time to stop being lazy, open the viewer, open the file, and type in two searches. ("ability damage" then "constitution") Those entries are not recent. Anyone could have done it. Instead, we have these "questions" about a rule that have been asked and answered already. If you don't like the change then don't like it, but don't try and use it as an excuse to create new rules and ignore other ones.
ZX670 02-09-07, 05:25 PM	Use the character’s current Constitution score, just as you would for any other character. If a 6-Con druid wild shapes into a 17-Con dire badger and takes 8 points of Constitution damage and/or drain while in that form, the character would instantly die upon returning to normal form. Without a way to get rid of some of that CON loss, that character would be unconscious under the new rules at any level he would be able to Wild Shape, barring having Improved Toughness. Check it out: Level 5: 6+3+3+3+3 = 18 hps, after 8 Con loss = -2 hps Level 6: 6+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 hps, after 8 Con loss = -3 hps Level 7: 6+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 24 hps, after 8 Con loss = -4 hps ...and you see the pattern. At that rate, he'd be dead at level 13. And he'd still have 9 Con, but an effectual maximum of -10 hps.
ZX670 02-09-07, 05:28 PM	My reasoning wasn't baseless, it was derived from the full content and context of the rules. If you want to ignore that and cheat, by trying to contrive that using wild shape heals all ability drain or damage, then you establish a basis to ignore any decision a DM at a table makes. The FAQ is searchable. It took me all of five minutes to find that entry, including the time to stop being lazy, open the viewer, open the file, and type in two searches. ("ability damage" then "constitution") Those entries are not recent. Anyone could have done it. Instead, we have these "questions" about a rule that have been asked and answered already. If you don't like the change then don't like it, but don't try and use it as an excuse to create new rules and ignore other ones. Dude, chill out. You don't have to come in here swinging, man. You don't know if this guy's trying to cheat, he was only asking some questions and you've been jumping down his throat. Maybe this guy doesn't have leet net skillz like you, and he couldn't find the FAQ. Lay off a bit, eh?
Samwise 02-09-07, 05:31 PM	Without a way to get rid of some of that CON loss, that character would be unconscious under the new rules at any level he would be able to Wild Shape, barring having Improved Toughness. Check it out: You forgot that you always have a minimum of 1 hp per HD. And you also gave the druid d6 instead of d8 HD. So in your examples, barring any hp damage over and above the Con damage, the druid would have: 5th level: 8 hp 6th level: 9 hp 7th level: 10 hp Naturally that won't help him when his wild shape duration runs out, or if he chooses to commit suicide by assuming his original form. But by the rules, barring direct hp damage or specific effect of the poison, you can never actually fall unconscious solely from the effects of a Con poison.
ZX670 02-09-07, 05:39 PM	You forgot that you always have a minimum of 1 hp per HD. Well, is that really true though? I know the SRD states: "Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level)." However, that's speaking about total hps for gaining levels, not for losing HPs for CON effects. In a quick search, I can't find anything else about it. This is new territory, because having much less max HP's than your CON actually dictates has never happened before now. I could be wrong, just saying that it doesn't necessarily say so. And you also gave the druid d6 instead of d8 HD. Nope. At a 6 Con, that's -2 HP's per level. At first, that'd be 8-2, or 6. Every other level would be half +1 -2, or 4+1-2, for 3 per level. So, assuming above you were right, it'd only be 1 hp per level, no? 5th level: 5 hp 6th level: 6 hp 7th level: 7 hp
Samwise 02-09-07, 06:02 PM	Well, is that really true though? I know the SRD states: "Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level)." However, that's speaking about total hps for gaining levels, not for losing HPs for CON effects. In a quick search, I can't find anything else about it. This is new territory, because having much less max HP's than your CON actually dictates has never happened before now. I could be wrong, just saying that it doesn't necessarily say so. It's . . . somewhere. That I simply can't recall at the moment. The basic effect is: Con damage affects your maximum hp. Your maximum hp are determined by you die rolls plus your Con modifier. (A negative Con modifier subtracting from the total. And while this creates a peculiar situation, it doesn not alter that functional effect. Nope. At a 6 Con, that's -2 HP's per level. At first, that'd be 8-2, or 6. Every other level would be half +1 -2, or 4+1-2, for 3 per level. So, assuming above you were right, it'd only be 1 hp per level, no? 5th level: 5 hp 6th level: 6 hp 7th level: 7 hp No, because now you are assigning the Con penalty for an 8 Con twice. The HD of a druid are d8. They "normally" (in LG anyway) get 8 hp at first level, and 5 hp each level after that. That is reduced by their Con modifier. Their normal Con modifier is -2 for a 6 Con. They would, technically, get more hp for being at 8 Con, since it is only -1 hp per HD. But we know their hp can't increase as a result of wild shaping. It does as a result of damage or drain taken when wild shaped, but in this case the penalty is included in their normal penalty, and would not reasonably be applied twice. Consider a more "typical" example: A 14 Con dwarf druid becomes a 17 Con dire badger. He takes 3 Con damage and now has a 14 Con. Does he lose hp? No, the modifier for his current Con is the same as for his normal Con. He takes 4 more Con damage and now has a 10 Con. Does he lost hp? Yes, his current Con modifier to hp is now 0 as opposed to his normal +2. The "peculiar" question that is raised is: What about when his "damaged" Con is still higher than his normal Con? For example, when that 6 Con elf takes 1 Con damage as a dire badger, his Con of 16 gives +3 hp per HD. As written, that FAQ entry suggests he would immediately gain hp. This is where we get into RAW vs RAI. The intent of wild shape is that your hp do not go up because you change form. I would expect that taking only a "little" poison damage would not justifiy getting more hp because the answer in that question is so light. That however raises a number of peculiar interactions that I expect will take some time to generate an official response. (And might even mean your example is correct and the penalties would stack.)
amnuxoll 02-09-07, 06:27 PM	I think you are simply over-analyzing everything and not just using the simplest, most obvious, answers, in the absence of any definitive clarifying statement from a certified authority. I'm with Samwise here. I don't understand how this is confusing to you. :AMN:
dougemes 02-09-07, 06:55 PM	[SNIP] I am not sure how you could even imagine that you would not die if you wildshape in the manner you give in your example. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that changing forms completely removes any and all ability damage, drain, or penalty. There is absolutely no problem at all there, other than trying to get free ability healing when changing form. [SNIP] Per the latest errata on the PHB we see "Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night." PHB p. 146 "Healing Ability Damage: Ability damage is temporary, just as hit point damage is. Ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per night of rest (8 hours) for each affected ability score" That sounds like a pretty honest mitake to either not include it in the errata or to confuse the benefit and wrongly apply the ability dmg restoral. Now could we get clarification or a "hey we cant talk about it yet" that the errata was supposed to say "Each time you use wild shape, you characters regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night as well as healed 1 ability damage per stat" or something in better legalese?
Samwise 02-09-07, 07:25 PM	That sounds like a pretty honest mitake to either not include it in the errata or to confuse the benefit and wrongly apply the ability dmg restoral. Now could we get clarification or a "hey we cant talk about it yet" that the errata was supposed to say "Each time you use wild shape, you characters regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night as well as healed 1 ability damage per stat" or something in better legalese? Unfortunately, a careful examination of the situation reveals that this is not an error in any way. Before the changes to polymorph and wild shape, the description for wild shape included: "This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here." The polymorph spell included: "Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further)." Since one intention of the errata was to completely separate every reference and link to polymorph, the reference in wild shape needed to be removed. That means any incidental effect they wanted to keep had to be specifically added. That would include the healing effect. As that healing effect only covered hp, and very specifically excluded ability damage, there is no mistake in the errata, or any reason to expect there is a mistake in the errata. The healing effect has not been changed in any way. It is only listed in wild shape directly, rather than vicariously through polymorph.
ZX670 02-12-07, 06:26 PM	No, because now you are assigning the Con penalty for an 8 Con twice. The HD of a druid are d8. They "normally" (in LG anyway) get 8 hp at first level, and 5 hp each level after that. That is reduced by their Con modifier. Their normal Con modifier is -2 for a 6 Con. They would, technically, get more hp for being at 8 Con, since it is only -1 hp per HD. But we know their hp can't increase as a result of wild shaping. It does as a result of damage or drain taken when wild shaped, but in this case the penalty is included in their normal penalty, and would not reasonably be applied twice. Sorry for taking so long to reply, was gone at a convention all weekend. Anyhow, I'm not applying his Con modifier twice in my example. It's quite simple to see a Con of 6 will yield a Druid 6 hps at 1st and 3 hps per level thereafter. Now, in the example of the 6 Con druid wildshaped into a creature with a 17 Con with 8 Con damage, he'd be at 9 Con left on his character sheet, but his Con without Wildshaping would be at a -2, meaning if he went out of Wildshape, he'd die immediately. Now, due to your hps not changing if you Wildshape, this 6 Con druid, at say 6th level, would have 6+3+3+3+3+3 hps per level for a total of 21, even in Dire Badger form. If his Con went down 8 points, his new Con modifier would be a -6 (assuming it doesn't stop at an effective -5 at 0 effective Con) but his Con would still be at 9, due to Wild Shape. His hps, again assuming if you are correct, and you always keep at least 1 hp per level regardless of Con, He'd have 6 Max Hps due to his Con, even though he has a 9 Con in Wildshape, due to the new rules. I hope that makes more sense. Consider a more "typical" example: A 14 Con dwarf druid becomes a 17 Con dire badger. He takes 3 Con damage and now has a 14 Con. Does he lose hp? No, the modifier for his current Con is the same as for his normal Con. He takes 4 more Con damage and now has a 10 Con. Does he lost hp? Yes, his current Con modifier to hp is now 0 as opposed to his normal +2. Took me a while to understand what you were saying, but I do not feel this is correct. Otherwise, when a Druid Wildshaped into a creature in which his Con drops (which could be quite possible, as my druid has a 16 Con standing unbuffed), the rule would still apply that your hps don't change regardless of Con change. Therefore, I think the meaning of the new Wildshape rules will make you keep 2 separate Con scores, your original, and Wildshaped. As you lose Con, both of your Con scores drop. Your original Con modifier is the one which affects HP gain or loss. Your Wildshaped Con is the one needed for reasons of Con drain, bc THAT is the Con score you will die from if it reaches 0. However, just for some clarity, can you please comment on this Britt? The "peculiar" question that is raised is: What about when his "damaged" Con is still higher than his normal Con? For example, when that 6 Con elf takes 1 Con damage as a dire badger, his Con of 16 gives +3 hp per HD. As written, that FAQ entry suggests he would immediately gain hp. This is where we get into RAW vs RAI. The intent of wild shape is that your hp do not go up because you change form. I would expect that taking only a "little" poison damage would not justifiy getting more hp because the answer in that question is so light. That however raises a number of peculiar interactions that I expect will take some time to generate an official response. (And might even mean your example is correct and the penalties would stack.) I think the way I have it above is the way it's meant to be, based on the new rules in the errata. If your HPs do not change by means of Wildshaping, then it's your original Con that will effect your hp if drained or bolstered, not your new, Wildshaped Con. This is also why they should either let the Con change effect your HPs accordingly, or have Wildshape not change your Con, only affecting your Str and Dex, which would make more sense with you keeping your type now, as it's more or less a bolstered illusion instead of you becoming the animal.
Samwise 02-12-07, 06:32 PM	Heh, and I'm going to a convention Wednesday. :P Yes, your first example seems correct. For the second, it appears it would work that way. As with most bizarre questions, I decided to see what CustServ would say, just for the heck of it: Initial: According to the current FAQ (121202006a), page 11: As per the errata for wild shape, despite an altered Constitution score the character's hit points do not change accordingly. Does this mean that regardless of Constitution changes while wild shaped a character's hit points are unaffected? No. Any changes to a wild shaped character's Constitution score that occur after the change (such as a timely bear's endurance spell or a Constitution-damaging poison) would have the full normal effect (including altering hit points). How do you apply changes to hp totals? Using the example of a 6 Con druid wild shaped into a 17 Con dire badger, his hp do not change when he wild shapes. If he gets a bear's endurance spell cast on him, are his hp calculated as if he had a 10 Con or a 21 Con? If he is affected by poison that does 1 Con damage, are his hp calculated as if he had a 5 Con or a 16 Con? If the answers are 10 Con and 5 Con, how would you calculate his hp when he takes enough Con damage to have a 0 Con? The next question says he won't die unless he resumes his normal form, but what would his hp be? If the answers are 21 Con and 16 Con, what if he takes enough Con damage to have an 8 Con? Would he lose an additional hp per HD? (Subject to the usual minimum of 1 per HD of course.) Reply: The best way to handle this is to track and remember what your original Constitution was before you wildshaped. The enhancement bonus to Con applies to both your original Con score to determine your hit points, and your temporary Con score to determine your modifier for Fort saves and skill and ability checks, etc. In your example the Bear's Endurance would give you a 10 Con for hp purposes, and a 21 Con for Fort save and skill/ability check purposes. This way, when the wildshape ends (and your Bear's Endurance spell does not) you still have the correct Con you're supposed to have in your true form. In the case of poison, you apply the damage to both Con scores, and if your true form's Con drops to 0, your fake badger Con is keeping you alive. Unless you fix the Con problem, once you return to your own form, you die. No matter what form you're in, the Con damage applies to that form's Con score. Followup: That's what I generally expected. One thing that's still not clear, how do you calculate hp when taking Con damage? Do I not reduce my hp until the damage reduces my "fake badger Con" to less than or equal to my normal Con? Reply: The easiest way to handle it is to reduce your Con for both scores and keep in mind that your hit points are tied to your true Con. If your true Con becomes Zero, you stay alive as long as your fake Con is higher than Zero. You do not lose any more hit points after your true Con hits Zero, as ability scores do not lower below Zero. As always, make of it what you will.
ZX670 02-12-07, 06:43 PM	Reply: The easiest way to handle it is to reduce your Con for both scores and keep in mind that your hit points are tied to your true Con. If your true Con becomes Zero, you stay alive as long as your fake Con is higher than Zero. You do not lose any more hit points after your true Con hits Zero, as ability scores do not lower below Zero. As always, make of it what you will. Cool, thanks for getting in touch with them, because even though what I was saying made sense to me, I had no clue if that was correct or not. Here's another question, but I think I have the answer: If your true Con reaches zero, in his final reply above, the Cust Serv guru says you no longer take HP loss, but can your WS'd form still take Con loss? I'm assuming yes, as otherwise that'd be quite unbalanced. At least this is making a bit more sense now, so I guess overall it is still a boon that we get to keep the Con change even if it doesn't affect our HPs. Have a good time at the convention. Edit: Also gonna post the Cust Serv response on my region's board if you don't mind. I know a lot of them have had questions about this stuff, and this should help them out.
Samwise 02-12-07, 06:49 PM	Cool, thanks for getting in touch with them, because even though what I was saying made sense to me, I had no clue if that was correct or not. Heh. Apparently they like replying to me. Here's another question, but I think I have the answer: If your true Con reaches zero, in his final reply above, the Cust Serv guru says you no longer take HP loss, but can your WS'd form still take Con loss? I'm assuming yes, as otherwise that'd be quite unbalanced. I'd say as a matter of the specific references and related rules, the answer is indeed yes. You "stop" taking personal Con damage because no ability score can go below 0. Your "alternate" Con is still above 0, so you still take damage. Have a good time at the convention. Thanks. :)
Timlagor 02-12-07, 09:53 PM	I really don't see where you are getting this "keep two con scores" from. You know you're normal Con You know your Wildshaped Con You track your Con damage and drain and apply it to whichever one you have at the time. Your HP loss from Con damage will be based on your current Con and you HD (and have nothing to do with your original Con until you change back). While wildshaped you do not have your normal Con score for any purpose. This could matter if you start with an even-numbered Con and wildshape to an odd-Con (or vice versa) and then take an odd-numbered amount of damage+drain+penalty. Example A 16-con gnome druid has 60hp He wildshapes to a Con of 19. He takes one point of Con damage. He has 60HP, Con=18 and 1pt Con damage. I think the Con damage should carry across wildshaping but it isn't really clear to me that it necessarily does so. I find the Amulet of Health in base form more interesting: I think you keep the HP score you had with it on even though that's rather weird.
Timlagor 02-12-07, 09:56 PM	Are you saying that you can never go below 0Hp from Con loss alone? I'm sure that's not right.
Samwise 02-12-07, 11:57 PM	I really don't see where you are getting this "keep two con scores" from. You know you're normal Con You know your Wildshaped Con You track your Con damage and drain and apply it to whichever one you have at the time. Your HP loss from Con damage will be based on your current Con and you HD (and have nothing to do with your original Con until you change back). Well, no. If you do that, then you are "changing" your hp based on your wild shaped Con. The rule is clear that any modifier to your Con other than the wild shape affects your hp. Using your example, you having taken a point of Con damage. If your starting Con was an even number, you now have 1 less hp per HD or level than before. It doesn't matter what your wild shaped Con is. The only exemption is that if you take enough Con damage that your normal Con would be reduced to 0 but your wild shaped Con is still above 0, you won't die until your wild shape ends. Now, as per the reply from CustServ, the most direct way to deal with this within the letter and spirit of the rules is to keep a separate total of each Con score if you encounter any modifiers. (Bear's endurance and poison being the most likely of course.) Are you saying that you can never go below 0Hp from Con loss alone? I'm sure that's not right. No, the rules say you can never reach 0 hp from Con loss alone. Your minimum is 1 hp per HD or level, even with -5 hp per HD or level for a 1 Con. That sounds rather peculiar, but remember that with only 1 hp per HD or level (and a few more for PCs with a d8, d10, or d12 for their first HD or level), it will be very easy for some minor damage to knock you below 0 hp. Someone just has to hit you in combat for that much hp damage as opposed to Con damage. And of course the moment your Con hits 0, your hp total becomes irrelevant, you are simply dead.
sibyl 02-13-07, 09:45 AM	Samwise, thank you for contacting Custserv and getting some answers regarding CON gain/loss and wildshaping. I will be printing those answers out and keeping them with my Druid for the next while (until things change again!), as they seem to make the most sense in keeping with both the RAW and RAI. This should also help keep arguments to a minimum, at least locally.
Cardinal Teplin 02-13-07, 10:45 AM	I'm with Timlawhatsit on the con damage thing. Damage should be applied to your current con score. Applying it to both doesn't make sense, and isn't RAW. That said, there's a definite problem with his interpretation on hp. With that, you could wear an amulet, change shape, wear a second amulet gaining hp, change shape... Not particularly broken, considering the effort involved, but surely not the intended result. The whole amulet of con thing is just part of a much larger problem - what happens when items merge? E.g. Druid with base 8 con and an amulet of health +2 takes 8 con damage. Desperate, he turns into an animal with a larger con. Does he die? (In other words, does the amulet disappear before he gets his new con score? Druid with a ring of invisibility changes into a horse. Does he become visible during the change, revealing himself to be a shapechanger, or only after the change, where he stand a chance of being ignored as just another horse? Druid with periapt of wound closure changes shape - how many hp does he regain? (does he get the amulet's bonus during the shapechange, or not?) And so on...
ZX670 02-13-07, 12:09 PM	I'm with Timlawhatsit on the con damage thing. Damage should be applied to your current con score. Applying it to both doesn't make sense, and isn't RAW. Based on the new rules, you DO apply damage to your current Con score, which will affect your Fort saves and Ability bonus for Con to skills, but you also will have to keep a separate list of your original Con (before losing any Con bumps from items worn which were absorbed in the form change), and will apply the damage to that as well, which will affect your HPs and, if reaching zero, could result in death if you either change back to your original form or am forced back to your original form. That said, there's a definite problem with his interpretation on hp. With that, you could wear an amulet, change shape, wear a second amulet gaining hp, change shape... Not particularly broken, considering the effort involved, but surely not the intended result. There isn't a problem imo. I think it is pretty clear, with CustServ's response as a guideline. When you change shape, if you are wearing anything, it is absorbed and thus isn't affecting your new shape. You can't have the affect of 2 amulets anyhow as enhancement bonuses don't stack. If I am mistaken in your meaning, then having 2 amulets for the purpose you describe (one for humanoid shape and one for animal shape) is perfectly legal. As is just having one, taking it off and having a party member put it back on after shaping. The whole amulet of con thing is just part of a much larger problem - what happens when items merge? E.g. Druid with base 8 con and an amulet of health +2 takes 8 con damage. Desperate, he turns into an animal with a larger con. Does he die? (In other words, does the amulet disappear before he gets his new con score? I believe he would die, as he would lose the Con modifier before actually gaining the new Con score, however, I am unsure if that is exactly in the order that it would happen. Druid with a ring of invisibility changes into a horse. Does he become visible during the change, revealing himself to be a shapechanger, or only after the change, where he stand a chance of being ignored as just another horse? I think it would be during. Think about it like this, as you begin shape changing, whatever items you are wearing also begin changing shape to morph with the new form. To me, as soon as the change begins to happen, all items you are wearing that do not affect the new form (the only thing I think that will would be Wilding armor with the new rules) would lose their effect immediately, so throughout the action used to shape, you are effectively without all items, as they are beginning to morph into something they are not intended for. Now, having said this, invisible from the ring is as per the spell, so as you aren't taking an offensive action, you should still be invis anyway. Druid with periapt of wound closure changes shape - how many hp does he regain? (does he get the amulet's bonus during the shapechange, or not?) And so on... Not sure on this one.
Timlagor 02-13-07, 02:17 PM	I'm with Timlawhatsit on the con damage thing. Damage should be applied to your current con score. Applying it to both doesn't make sense, and isn't RAW. That said, there's a definite problem with his interpretation on hp. With that, you could wear an amulet, change shape, wear a second amulet gaining hp, change shape... Not particularly broken, considering the effort involved, but surely not the intended result. That is indeed my conclusion. It probably wasn't intended but the whole rule is so ill-thought out that this jsut happens to be one of the less palatable conclusions. I don't see any way around it however many Con scores you decide to track. EDIT: I don't think I agree with anything in Samwise's post but I don't think I have anything new to add there.
Samwise 02-14-07, 12:40 AM	I'm not sure why you think it is unclear. The rules as written has one definite statement: Your hp do not change as a result of a change in your Con from using wild shape. The FAQ has two definite statements: Any changes to your Con after you wild shape affect you normally. If you take damage to your Con while wild shaped, if that damage would reduce your normal Con to 0 when you come out of wild shape, you will die your when wild shape ends. From those three statements we must decide how to resolve the various situations of changing your Con when you wild shape, both positive and negative. If you do not keep track of the separate totals, and apply changes to your hp based on your normal Con plus any modifiers (positive or negative), then your Con change from wild shape is affecting your hp. That is a mathematical absolute. Whether it be from delaying loss of hp from Con damage, or giving you a higher bonus to hp, it is having an effect on your hp. Indeed, in an unusual situation, you could take Con damage and still claim a bonus to your hp. That is very obviously not the spirit and intent of the rules. Now if you can provide a reasonable method of resolving this seeming conflict other than tracking both totals separately, feel free to suggest it. But ignoring it completely because you don't like the wild shape errata would in fact be an direct violation of the rules as written. Just because they don't provide a specific method of resolving the situation does not mean you get to freely ignore it. Nor does not liking the situation with an amulet of health, or any item, being absorbed. If you really aren't sure, take a shot and ask CustServ or write Sage Advice. (Especially Sage Advice, they haven't replied to me ever since I asked that evil question about ride-by attack.) But trying to ignore it or deliberately confuse the issue for an in-game benefit is against the rules as written, as well as the spirit of the rules.
Sithobi1 02-14-07, 01:16 AM	The only rules quote I can find regarding constitution and HP is under Special Abilities, Ability Score Loss. If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. This says nothing about the current Con score, which would mean that you don't actually have to track two scores.
Samwise 02-14-07, 01:19 AM	The only rules quote I can find regarding constitution and HP is under Special Abilities, Ability Score Loss. This says nothing about the current Con score, which would mean that you don't actually have to track two scores. Since your wild shape Con score affects everything but hp, such as Fort save modifier, you would in fact have to keep track of the modifiers both provide after something changes your Con score, whether positive or negative. Again, unless you can think of another way to do it.
Sithobi1 02-14-07, 01:39 AM	Why would you have to keep track of two? Just recalculate with the damage when you leave wildshape. While you're in wildshape, you wouldn't be tracking the damaged con score, but how much damage you've taken. Technically, you'd have the odd effect of a single point of Con damage not lowering HP on a 14 con druid Wildshaped into a 21 con creature, but that doesn't seem that bad...
ZX670 02-14-07, 11:07 AM	Why would you have to keep track of two? Just recalculate with the damage when you leave wildshape. While you're in wildshape, you wouldn't be tracking the damaged con score, but how much damage you've taken. Technically, you'd have the odd effect of a single point of Con damage not lowering HP on a 14 con druid Wildshaped into a 21 con creature, but that doesn't seem that bad... The reason is that if your HPs are not being based at all on your Wildshaped Con, then you will be using your original Con score to determine your Con modifier, and thus, HPs. I do not see any other way around it, because when you lose Con, you also lose HP. If your original Con reaches 0, then you no longer lose HPs for losing Con, however, your Wildshaped Con score can still be decreasing from Con loss.
Sithobi1 02-14-07, 11:30 AM	My point is that you don't track Con, you track your maximum HP. When you decrease Con, you lose 1 hp/hd for each point of constitution modifier lost in your current form, to a minimum of 1 hp/HD, from both your current HP and your maximum HP.
ZX670 02-14-07, 11:38 AM	My point is that you don't track Con, you track your maximum HP. When you decrease Con, you lose 1 hp/hd for each point of constitution modifier lost in your current form, to a minimum of 1 hp/HD, from both your current HP and your maximum HP. Ok, I'm tired of arguing semantics on whether you track the second Con or not. It's exhausting. On this, though, I'll just say that it would matter if you were supposed to track both Cons, as if you did it that way, when your original Con were to reach zero, you would no longer take HP loss from losing Con, as your Con can't go below zero. You could still lose Wildshaped Con in that example, though, just not HPs. If you only track the Wildshaped Con, then you could be losing HPs even when you might not have to. The minimum Con modifier one can have is a -5. It might not matter so much though, as only Barbarians might have more than 1 HP left per level at -5 Con mod.
Timlagor 02-14-07, 02:42 PM	I don't think it's unclear Sam; I just think you're wrong. I believe I have explained why in sufficient detail.
Samwise 02-19-07, 01:47 PM	I don't think it's unclear Sam; I just think you're wrong. I believe I have explained why in sufficient detail. Except you haven't shown why that is so based on the rules. You have said you don't like the rule, and shown that you don't understand the implications of a related rule (that you can't go below 0 hp just because of Con loss). Neither of those is a reason to not use tracking both Con scores, or why I am wrong. As a side note, WotC had a bunch of their people at DDXP to answer questions (and be subject to crazed harangues) from people. I mentioned this, and they said they would look at it. They also said that there are a lot of rules they haven't directly addressed simply because they consider them to either be irrelevant to game balance, or so utterly obvious they have difficulty understanding why people would make an issue of it. This is one of them. The wild shape rules are pretty direct. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you get to ignore them.
Mithrus 02-20-07, 08:28 AM	Per the latest errata on the PHB we see "Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night." Related but slightly OT, am I correct in understanding that if the druid is under the effects of a Healthful Rest spell, s/he would then heal twice the amount of HPs with each shapechange?
Cardinal Teplin 02-20-07, 08:47 AM	Yes. This then leads on to the problem of what happens when you're wearing a periapt of wound closure, and decide to change shape... See also 'Improved healing' (sp?), a feat from complete warrior that improves your natural healing rate.