Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 02-13-07, 01:31 PM	Like many of you, I'm going through the document to figure out what changed. Here's what changed in the Closed Prestige Classes access rules. This section combines the 596 NPC Only and Restricted sections. It adds the following prestige classes to the Closed list: Abjurant Champion (CM) Magical Trickster (CS) Malconvoker (CS) Master of Many Forms (CAd) Master Specialist (CM) Ultimate Magus (CM) Assassin and Blackguard have been deleted from the Closed list.
Hariman 02-16-07, 01:26 AM	I understand why most of these classes were Closed. But the only reason that I can see for closing the Ultimate Magus is that you can cast effective 10th level spells via Augmented Spellcasting. Hello DC 27 save or die spells. (At 15th level) The other reason that I can see is Expanded Knowledge. Which gives sorcerers more spells known. But to get this your character ends up FOUR levels behind a pure caster (Single class sorcerer or wizard) on both sorcerer and wizard sides. That leaves the character an extra level BEHIND Mystic Theurges. I think that it's a fair trade. Especially once you run out of your maximum 8 uses of Augmented Spellcasting. Abjurant Champion makes perfect sense. It's so good that ANY spellcaster would gladly take it. And any Fighter (who didn't need the feats for a build) would also gladly take it.
Mithrus 02-17-07, 08:27 PM	I'm still trying to find out why the Runesmith PrC (RoS) is closed? I don;t know how it could be considered broken or abusable, but I like the concept. Anyone have a clue?
Lomiat 02-17-07, 08:34 PM	I understand why most of these classes were Closed. But the only reason that I can see for closing the Ultimate Magus is that you can cast effective 10th level spells via Augmented Spellcasting. Hello DC 27 save or die spells. (At 15th level) I believe anyone can build a gray elf to cast DC 27 save or die spells by 15th level, or with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, up to DC 29. Higher than that with items and lucky access (Tomes). Just saying that's probably not the reason the class is Closed.
Hariman 02-18-07, 02:09 AM	Hmmm. It's only after I post this that I find the answer elsewhere. The LG higher ups are trying to keep a tight lid on free uses of metamagic feats. The only flaw with "free" uses of metamagic feats being the reason for closing the ultimate magus? An Ultimate Magus has to pay in spell slots from his other spellcasting class if he wants to augment one class' spells. So a 10th level spell will actually cost two 5th levels spell slots. Beyond that the only "issue" I see is how you can "cover" a specialist wizard's forbidden schools or specialize in one area to an extreme. You can already do this with a Mystic Theurge. It's probably a combination of issues, not just one.
ranagrande 02-19-07, 03:44 AM	If Ultimate Magus had been allowed, here's the type of build I would want to use with it. Not allowing it is probably a good idea. :P 1. Bard 1 2. Wizard 1 3. Wizard 2 4. Wizard 3 5. Bard 2 6. Ultimate Magus 1 7. Ultimate Magus 2 8. Ultimate Magus 3 9. Ultimate Magus 4 10. Ultimate Magus 5 11. Sublime Chord 1 12. Ultimate Magus 6 13. Ultimate Magus 7 14. Ultimate Magus 8 15. Ultimate Magus 9
Hariman 02-19-07, 04:18 AM	What do bard and sublime chord offer that sorcerer doesn't? Other than bardsong and bardic knowledge. Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus is the most powerful combination that I can think of. Mainly because you can either specialize to an extreme in illusion and enchantment or cover the full range of spells by forbidding illusion and enchantment. Sorcerer/Wizard/UM seems the best to me.
Sieylianna 02-19-07, 10:50 AM	I don't know why the Warlock prestige classes from CM didn't make the closed list. Warlock is NPC only, so it's not available for PCs. Ed
Donald_Cannith 02-19-07, 02:20 PM	For the same reason the assassin and the blackguard arent Closed...its impossible to qualify for them so its a foregone conclusion.
Mattastrophic 02-19-07, 02:29 PM	If Ultimate Magus had been allowed, here's the type of build I would want to use with it. Not allowing it is probably a good idea. :P 1. Bard 1 2. Wizard 1 3. Wizard 2 4. Wizard 3 5. Bard 2 6. Ultimate Magus 1 7. Ultimate Magus 2 8. Ultimate Magus 3 9. Ultimate Magus 4 10. Ultimate Magus 5 11. Sublime Chord 1 12. Ultimate Magus 6 13. Ultimate Magus 7 14. Ultimate Magus 8 15. Ultimate Magus 9 I wrote out a build like that myself, and it breaks down pretty quickly, even on paper. You have to take Practiced Spellcaster (bard) in order to advance Wiz at UltMag1 and Ultmag4, and then at UltMag7 you can't increase both Wiz and SubChord, which might require ANOTHER feat into Practiced Spellcaster to make the choice work out, and you end up with either Wiz12/SubChord4 casting OR Wiz11/SubChord5 casting, both of which aren't that snazzy in the long run. Honestly, Ultimate Magus, imo, is very overrated, as you're basically end up being a Mystic Theurge without the divine end. -Matt
ranagrande 02-19-07, 07:59 PM	As far as I can tell, Sublime Chord is the only way to get 7th level spells as an Ultimate Magus. This is important because it gives you Limited Wish which is, in my opinion, the best spell available in Living Greyhawk. When I first started looking at it, I didn't even bother with Practiced Spellcaster, and I was able to get Wiz 10/SC 5. Obviously Wizard 11 is a whole lot better since it opens up 6th level Wizard spells, but the former would still work too. There are lots of fun little tricks that can be done with this build. The one I had in mind when I made it, Quickened True Strike plus Otto's Irresistible Dance, could easily be an encounter breaker.
jstorrie 02-19-07, 09:41 PM	Ultimate Magus is less powerful than Unseen Seer. It's likely not a question of broken-ness, it's a question of complicated-ness. There are significant problems with calculating caster levels for Ultimate Magi in LG, especially with certain prestige classes in the mix.
Hariman 02-19-07, 10:16 PM	I wrote out a build like that myself, and it breaks down pretty quickly, even on paper. You have to take Practiced Spellcaster (bard) in order to advance Wiz at UltMag1 and Ultmag4, and then at UltMag7 you can't increase both Wiz and SubChord, which might require ANOTHER feat into Practiced Spellcaster to make the choice work out, and you end up with either Wiz12/SubChord4 casting OR Wiz11/SubChord5 casting, both of which aren't that snazzy in the long run. Honestly, Ultimate Magus, imo, is very overrated, as you're basically end up being a Mystic Theurge without the divine end. -Matt I generally ignore the Practiced Spellcaster trick with Ultimate Magus. It violates the intent of the class. The intent being that you end up with sorcerer11/wizard11 casting (With caster levels of 15) at 15th level. You also gain additional spells on your sorcerer spells known list, augmented spellcasting, and either flexibility beyond the norm or specialization beyond the norm. Plus a honking cartload of spells per day. Which is especially useful with swift action spells and a specialist wizard. The extra sorcerer spells and the augmented casting are the best part of the class. Even ONE extra spell on a sorcerer's list is a big thing, if used properly; Plus, with a careful choice of metamagic feats, you can augment spells for added effect. Admittedly, even with the caster level hit of Unseen Seer, you can still do more with the Seer. But with the Magus you can hurl spells longer and to greater effect.
Maesto 02-20-07, 08:02 AM	I wanna be an ultimate magus wizard sorceror unseen seer practised spellcaster x 2 wild mage archmage! Anybody wanna work out my caster level? ;-)
Hariman 02-20-07, 08:00 PM	I wanna be an ultimate magus wizard sorceror unseen seer practised spellcaster x 2 wild mage archmage! Anybody wanna work out my caster level? ;-) Let's see, one, you need a level of rogue or scout. Two, you're not taking all of the levels of Ultimate Magus. Three, you're undoubtedly into the "high level option" mods. You could only apply Wild Mage, Unseen Seer, AND Archmage to one of the spellcasting classes. (Wizard, undoubtedly.) Your build would likely be a mutt that would end up with trouble keeping up with the other characters out there. Most people who would go into Ultimate Magus wouldn't do anything worse than a Sublime Magus build. I'd go with sorcerer/wizard myself. "Dipping" into another prestige class (or any class) while advancing Ultimate Magus is foolish because you lose out on the best benefits of the class. Using other classes AFTER level 10 of UM is pretty good. If Ultimate Magus were allowed into LG (A highly doubtful prospect.) I'd ask for a clarification of the UM rules text specifically eliminating the Practiced Spellcaster trick. Complete with a "you can't do that" note in the LGCS. Hariman PS: Practised Spellcaster becomes worthless by the final level of Ultimate Magus, but you can't retrain it because it would invalidate the prior choices made while advancing UM. Essentially, a total waste of a feat.
Cardinal Teplin 02-21-07, 05:58 PM	I feel it's a shame that MoMFs got the chop. With the new new polymoph rules, the class is hardly broken, and still less powerful than a straight druid. I can see the reasoning - that the different forms are hard to adjudicate, but with wild shape still in the game, it's not like that problem has gone away. What worries me is that the class got the chop simply because it was complicated to adjudicate. Since all my characters tend to be complicated, because that's what I enjoy playing, I've got to wonder if I'm playing the right game. H Teplin - ~druid 5 MoMFs 10 Lethey - Wizard 5 alienist 2 (gasesous spell and familiar-buffing build) Canarius - Barbarian marshal fighter - overrun and bull rush specialist
Sieylianna 02-21-07, 10:15 PM	What worries me is that the class got the chop simply because it was complicated to adjudicate. Since all my characters tend to be complicated, because that's what I enjoy playing, I've got to wonder if I'm playing the right game. I think the class got cut because too many players either didn't recognize or ignored the changes from 3.0 to 3.5. IIRC, magic beasts went away in 3.5, and I don't think I've played with a MoMF who didn't use an illegal form at some point during the module. Ed
Cardinal Teplin 02-22-07, 08:34 PM	I think the class got cut because too many players either didn't recognize or ignored the changes from 3.0 to 3.5. IIRC, magic beasts went away in 3.5, and I don't think I've played with a MoMF who didn't use an illegal form at some point during the module. Bah, I've never played with a scout who didn't try and get skirmish damage with their full attack. Some people don't know the rules, and will get them wrong. I don't see that banning complicated character types is the way to solve it though...
Mithrus 02-27-07, 05:12 PM	I'm still trying to find out why the Runesmith PrC (RoS) is closed? I don't understand how it could be considered broken or abusable, but I like the concept. Anyone have a clue? Ok, this thread quickly turned into the Ultimate Magus thread, and my question got lost. I would much appreciate an answer.
KarmaInferno 02-27-07, 05:23 PM	I think the class got cut because too many players either didn't recognize or ignored the changes from 3.0 to 3.5. IIRC, magic beasts went away in 3.5, and I don't think I've played with a MoMF who didn't use an illegal form at some point during the module. Ed Bah, you've never played with me, then. I could wreck modules just fine with the legal forms. I even had a spreadsheet with all my various abilities in each form taken. Five pages long. In Excel, with all the numbers auto-calculating so stat and other changes would accurately update in the linked abilities. Bear's Strength? Enlarge? I click a pull-down and all the bonuses and dice adjust automatically. Yeah, I'm a little depressed a lot of that work went for nothing. :( -karma
jstorrie 02-27-07, 06:17 PM	Mithrus: as far as I can remember, the problem with Runesmith was the Permanent Rune (Ex) ability and how it would let you avoid the xp components of spells - leading to people running around using free Limited Wishes or whatnot.
Mithrus 02-28-07, 12:44 AM	Mithrus: as far as I can remember, the problem with Runesmith was the Permanent Rune (Ex) ability and how it would let you avoid the xp components of spells - leading to people running around using free Limited Wishes or whatnot. Not according to the text. It costs 20 times any material component cost, and any focus cost is at cost. Plus, you have to spend any xp as if casting the spell. You get to cast it 2/day. Considering you are giving up a one higher slot permanently, it's a pretty fair exchange.
Hariman 02-28-07, 01:29 AM	Mithrus: as far as I can remember, the problem with Runesmith was the Permanent Rune (Ex) ability and how it would let you avoid the xp components of spells - leading to people running around using free Limited Wishes or whatnot. That could be one problem. I see three additional problems. 1: Easy entry. More than one other closed class has entry requirements too easy for the benefits. (-1 caster level for all class benefits for one level of fighter or paladin.) 2: Runic confusion: So how much space do those runes take up? Does a Runesmith need a different tablet for each spell? Can a runesmith prepare his spells on his armor? Are the "tablets" reusable? 3:Share Rune: The fighter just lead the combat off with a fireball, the rogue gets a use of greater invisibility the next day, the monk gets greater mage armor the third day. The biggest issue here is that it's almost a free quicken spell. More than once a day thanks to the dwarven Con bonus. It's a combination of things that make the class closed. Not just one thing.
Mithrus 02-28-07, 06:41 PM	That could be one problem. I see three additional problems. 1: Easy entry. More than one other closed class has entry requirements too easy for the benefits. (-1 caster level for all class benefits for one level of fighter or paladin.) Too easy? You pretty much have to take a level of fighter (although paladin I suppose would work), which means you loose one caster level automatically. Next, you need to spend 8 skill points in a skill that essentially has no in-game use. Not a minor investment, and while I agree the entry conditions are not stiff, neither are the benefits as powerful as you might think. 2: Runic confusion: So how much space do those runes take up? Does a Runesmith need a different tablet for each spell? Can a runesmith prepare his spells on his armor? Are the "tablets" reusable?This part I totally agree with you. The only major vagueness is the lack of spacial clarification. The picture for the class has the runesmith putting an enormous rune on his shield, but since nothing is quantified, this alone I could see as being sufficiently vague to make it a closed class (shame WotC). 3:Share Rune: The fighter just lead the combat off with a fireball, the rogue gets a use of greater invisibility the next day, the monk gets greater mage armor the third day. The biggest issue here is that it's almost a free quicken spell. More than once a day thanks to the dwarven Con bonus.Free Quicken? Huh? It takes the same amount of time to cast as the normal spell, but takes up a spell slot TWO levels higher then the original spell. Also, the slot doesn't refresh come the next day, as the the slot is still "in use". I don't see this being used much at all, unless the need is pretty great. Who would trade a 3rd level spell for a 1st level that someone else can cast, or worse, a 5th level to cast a 3rd. It's technically a very weak metamagic feat-like ability.
Hariman 02-28-07, 10:13 PM	Too easy? You pretty much have to take a level of fighter (although paladin I suppose would work), which means you loose one caster level automatically. Next, you need to spend 8 skill points in a skill that essentially has no in-game use. Not a minor investment, and while I agree the entry conditions are not stiff, neither are the benefits as powerful as you might think. This part I totally agree with you. The only major vagueness is the lack of spacial clarification. The picture for the class has the runesmith putting an enormous rune on his shield, but since nothing is quantified, this alone I could see as being sufficiently vague to make it a closed class (shame WotC). Free Quicken? Huh? It takes the same amount of time to cast as the normal spell, but takes up a spell slot TWO levels higher then the original spell. Also, the slot doesn't refresh come the next day, as the the slot is still "in use". I don't see this being used much at all, unless the need is pretty great. Who would trade a 3rd level spell for a 1st level that someone else can cast, or worse, a 5th level to cast a 3rd. It's technically a very weak metamagic feat-like ability. Firstly: This is a wizard based class. (What with scribe scroll and the ability to prepare spells being required.) So skill points aren't too big of a problem. One level of fighter might mean a lost caster level, but combined with battlecaster and mithral medium armor means better AC for only a little weight. Second: We're in agreement on the vagueness issue. Third: I'd trade a fifth level spell slot to give the party monk a greater mage armor that he can use himself. (Saving my time) I'd give ANY other character a good attack spell, like fireball, so that we can use three spells in one round. (If I've got quicken spell too.) There are so many uses for Share Spell, all of which are either letting an ally buff himself or giving an ally an attack spell to dish out extra damage. It's a limited use version of "craft tattoo". It's not game breaking, but it's very, very useful. But, we don't really know the exact reason for the class becoming closed. Aside from level 5, it doesn't seem all that bad. Runesmith is nowhere near as bad as Abjurant Champion. (I'm a fighter and I can cast 10d6 fireballs at level 11, have hit points almost as good as a regular fighter, third level spells, AND quickened defensive spells that are better than normal? YES PLEASE. OR, all I have to do to get a d10 hit die is take combat casting and lose some familiar abilities? WOOHOO!) Except for the last ability that seems to let you ignore XP costs. (Maybe).
jstorrie 02-28-07, 11:27 PM	Third: I'd trade a fifth level spell slot to give the party monk a greater mage armor that he can use himself. (Saving my time) I'd give ANY other character a good attack spell, like fireball, so that we can use three spells in one round. (If I've got quicken spell too.) Let's not forget the ability to have the party fighters cast bladeweave, blink/greater blink, divine power, false life, fire shield, nightstalker's transformation (ouch), righteous might, spectral weapon, transformation, true strike...
Hariman 03-01-07, 02:21 AM	Let's not forget the ability to have the party fighters cast bladeweave, blink/greater blink, divine power, false life, fire shield, nightstalker's transformation (ouch), righteous might, spectral weapon, transformation, true strike... Ooh, greater blink and nightstalker's transformation are good ones. Greater Blink is a MUST for my rogue wizard, and Nightstalker's Transformation is only iffy because of his low HP (30 at level 5) and the cost of a potion of cat's grace per casting. (He took a major gold hit.) Trollform is another good one. Share Rune let's PERSONAL spells be used by other party members. That is what makes Share Rune so bad. Along with letting the fighter sling a fireball or giving the rogue greater invisibility 1/day.
Cardinal Teplin 03-01-07, 10:39 AM	...It also allows you to have spells emenate from someone else, not the wizard. This is also very useful. Anti-magic shell is only the start... I suspect what happened is that people have since decided that this ability is far more useful than they thought. Looks at that feat in PHB2 that allows your familiar to cast some of your spells. Someone was clearly afraid that they were giving away too much there, they've slapped so many limitations on it.
Hariman 03-01-07, 02:32 PM	...It also allows you to have spells emenate from someone else, not the wizard. This is also very useful. Anti-magic shell is only the start... I suspect what happened is that people have since decided that this ability is far more useful than they thought. Looks at that feat in PHB2 that allows your familiar to cast some of your spells. Someone was clearly afraid that they were giving away too much there, they've slapped so many limitations on it. Spell linked familiar? That's not too bad. It allows a few buffs or a few extra low level attack spells to be fired from your familiar. I'd personally take it at higher levels and give my familiar a casting of False Life so he could "heal" me. Antimagic Field can't be use with Share Rune until epic. The globes of invulnerability can.
Mithrus 03-01-07, 11:45 PM	Share Rune let's PERSONAL spells be used by other party members. That is what makes Share Rune so bad. Ok, this escaped my notice. I guess I don't think of exploits naturally. It seems sharing spells in general is a bad idea. I maintain giving up a spell slot TWO levels higher is a stiff price, but with the right foresight, it can really be powerful. Oh well, the arguments I've heard are acceptable enough to let the decision rest. Thank you all for the input.
Maesto 03-04-07, 03:14 AM	There are still ways in LG to share personal range spells, but you pay through the nose for them. There's the ring of spell storing, but that has some severe limitations. There's also the really expensive ioun stone, also with limitations. The other way to do it is to use the bracelets of spell sharing from DMG 2, but they're 50K? or was it 60K?, and they're also fairly limited (but still insanely broken).