Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:05 AM	Pursuant to discussion, this thread is for Divine Metamagic. repeating Britt's earlier comment for clarity: DMM and DSP represent two types of effects that we are trying to keep a close eye on: free metamagic applications and CL bumps. These aren't always a bad thing, but they raise immediate warning flags. Those two types of effects have caused serious problems in the past and will likely continue to do so in the future. Divine Metamagic had three problems. The first was fixed last year, when the Circle banned Nightsticks from the campaign. This lowered greatly the amount of times per day that DMM was usable. Now, essentially, DMM is a turning-based Sudden metamagic feat, attached to a metamagic feat the caster already has. This creates problem #2: people who didn't read it properly assumed it let them use every metamagic feat they knew, and loaded casters with 3-4 metas plus one DMM and pretended they could both Heighten and Maximize using their turn attempts. This is player confusion and/or cheating though, not a problem in the feat itself. The last is the complaint that Sudden feats are limited(NONC), while DMM was more powerful. This I feel is true, but the fact that DMM requires two feats (a Metamagic to attach to, plus DMM) instead of one (just the Sudden) to use it is not unreasonable; for the higher caster level bumps (Quicken, Maximize), 3 times per day is the effective max in LG. You can't get to 15 turn attempts per day without Nightsticks (CHA 24 for bonus 7 + 3 base + 4 for Extra Turning is only 14), so for Quicken it's just two. Should DMM be banned? I don't think so. Moving it to NONC access would serve the point just fine, since it's in the same general class as the Sudden feats.
CSHunt68 02-08-07, 11:11 AM	Agreed. Just like for DSP, I have yet to see a good argument for banning DMM.
Timlagor 02-08-07, 11:17 AM	There is no limit on the number of times you can take Extra Turning. The Sudden Feats are also too powerful but at least Sudden Quicken is unattainable. If you don't already think DMM(Quicken) is overpowered then I doubt I can persuade you but two top-tier spells in the opening round ought to make anyone think twice about it being balanced. Do you realise that actions are a critical resource in combat?
Lupo 02-08-07, 11:27 AM	There is no limit on the number of times you can take Extra Turning. The Sudden Feats are also too powerful but at least Sudden Quicken is unattainable. If you don't already think DMM(Quicken) is overpowered then I doubt I can persuade you but two top-tier spells in the opening round ought to make anyone think twice about it being balanced. Do you realise that actions are a critical resource in combat? with a lot of swift spells around - and most of them are NOT on the cleric's list - DMM [quicken] has lost a lot of its bite. and arcanists get this dreaded "contingency", let's take it away as well, for being unbalancing ;) ciao martin m.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:29 AM	There is no limit on the number of times you can take Extra Turning. The Sudden Feats are also too powerful but at least Sudden Quicken is unattainable. If you don't already think DMM(Quicken) is overpowered then I doubt I can persuade you but two top-tier spells in the opening round ought to make anyone think twice about it being balanced. Do you realise that actions are a critical resource in combat? Sure. And if you want to blow a whole four feats on it (Metamagic, DMM, Extra Turning X2) congratulations - there goes every one of your feats clear through 9th level. I consider that a pretty game-balanced thing.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 11:37 AM	Sure. And if you want to blow a whole four feats on it (Metamagic, DMM, Extra Turning X2) congratulations - there goes every one of your feats clear through 9th level. I consider that a pretty game-balanced thing. Human Cleric at 15th level has 7 feats to spend. DMM, Quicken Spell, Extra Turningx5, Assuming at least 12 CHA, thats 5 spells quickened for free each day. At that point, the benefit FAR outweighs the cost. Shoot off 2 firestorms in one round? Yes please. Or alternately, blow off a quickened Holy word to take out the chumps, then something fancy for whatever is left. DMM isn't so bad when you only get one or two uses per day, but it's the POTENTIAL that makes it icky... Also, for Bards their is still Metamagic Song, expend bardic music to add ANY metamagic feat you have, but it has the clause that you can't raise a spell beyond what you could normally cast...If DMM had that clause it would be fine...
CSHunt68 02-08-07, 11:38 AM	There is no limit on the number of times you can take Extra Turning. Really? Actually, there's a natural limit, built into the very core rules. And that is, Clerics only get one Feat every three levels. If you don't already think DMM(Quicken) is overpowered then I doubt I can persuade you but two top-tier spells in the opening round ought to make anyone think twice about it being balanced. Do you realise that actions are a critical resource in combat? Meh. We're talking Clerics, not Wizards. The spell lists are hugely different. Anyway, by your argument, you'll need to Close ALL things that allow quickened actions - Rods of Quicken and Sudden Quicken come to mind. But, then, why not just Close DMM:Quicken, if that's the only culprit?
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:46 AM	Human Cleric at 15th level has 7 feats to spend. DMM, Quicken Spell, Extra Turningx5, Assuming at least 12 CHA, thats 5 spells quickened for free each day. At that point, the benefit FAR outweighs the cost. Shoot off 2 firestorms in one round? Yes please. Or alternately, blow off a quickened Holy word to take out the chumps, then something fancy for whatever is left. DMM isn't so bad when you only get one or two uses per day, but it's the POTENTIAL that makes it icky... Easy fix: campaign errata, you can only take Extra Turning once. Presto, problem solved, and without the need to remove a perfectly serviceable feat.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 11:47 AM	Easy fix: campaign errata, you can only take Extra Turning once. Presto, problem solved, and without the need to remove a perfectly serviceable feat. But then you are asking them to change core rules...which they don't do...except when they feel like it...
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 11:48 AM	Really? Actually, there's a natural limit, built into the very core rules. And that is, Clerics only get one Feat every three levels. Meh. We're talking Clerics, not Wizards. The spell lists are hugely different. Anyway, by your argument, you'll need to Close ALL things that allow quickened actions - Rods of Quicken and Sudden Quicken come to mind. Heh. By the new rules, take Craft Rod at 12th, Quicken feat, and start being a Quicken Rod factory. Problem solved.
Madfox11 02-08-07, 11:51 AM	The whole idea of meta-magic feats is that they raise the spell level of the spell and hence increase the APL of a party before the meta-magic version becomes available. The fact is that it allows those meta-magiced spells at a much earlier point, theoretically at 1st level for a human cleric, and always more than once per day (since somebody with few turn attempts simply will not take these feats). Granted, this is much less of an issue for a cleric than for a wizard (afterall the sudden maximized empowered fireball at APL 6 is much more painful than the divinely maximized inflict critical wounds), but it is still an issue. At higher levels it becomes even worse, because it allows spells to be affected by meta-magic that never should be meta-magiced - quickened harms at APL 10 followed by maximized flame strikes spring to mind. Now before you scream too loudly that that means that we should also limit the rods of meta-magic, be careful what you wish for, because some of us in the Circle actually would love to get rid of those things and I always ask the Triads to think twice before granting access to those damned things in adventures. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
zoinks69 02-08-07, 12:08 PM	(Sorry for rehashing what everyone already said) Extra Turning can be taken multiple times, making the actual limit 3 (base) 8 (cha 26 (18 + 6 cloak + 2 from level bump), though I've seen PCs as high as cha 30) 16 or 20 for human (6 feats - 2 for the metamagic and DMM + 1 if human) = 27 (5 times) or 31 (6 times for human) for the quickens While that's certainly the extreme, if you take away the 3rd level rule (which the new lgcs apparently will do), human clerics can be cracking off the metamagic of their choice at least once a day at level 1. That's not to say I agree with them outright taking it or DSP away. I think it makes cleric a much more viable option for many types of players (particularly those that wouldn't normally play cleric) and more cleric options leads to more tables being played (imo). However, I'd like to think that taking the option away also means taking it away for the NPC's for the most part. I've started seeing DMM Quicken in modules and can visualize the slippery slope that creates. I'll be disappointed if DMM doesn't go away (eventually, I realize there are active modules and stuff written under the old rules that might not be released).
hoppy 02-08-07, 02:49 PM	... it allows spells to be affected by meta-magic that never should be meta-magiced - quickened harms at APL 10 followed by maximized flame strikes spring to mind. ... Pieter, I agree your example is abusive because they are 3-and 4-spell-level bumps for free. However, I don't think a one spell-level bump is abusive, considering the feat required and its opportunity cost. Would the Circle consider banning only those DMMs that are abusive, such as Quicken, Maximize, Empower, et. al. and allow those DMMs that only require a one-spell-level bump, such as Extend, Rapid, etc.? I think that would be a good compromise. Hoppy
Gelth 02-08-07, 02:52 PM	Pieter, I agree your example is abusive because they are 3-and 4-spell-level bumps for free. However, I don't think a one spell-level bump is abusive, considering the feat required and its opportunity cost. Would the Circle consider banning only those DMMs that are abusive, such as Quicken, Maximize, Empower, et. al. and allow those DMMs that only require a one-spell-level bump, such as Extend, Rapid, etc.? I think that would be a good compromise. Hoppy That would be changing how the feat works, which means that the feat as printed wouldn't be correct. It's far far simpler and better for the sanity of the playerbase (the casual players who don't post here) to just ban it. --Penn, Ket Triad
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 03:02 PM	That would be changing how the feat works, which means that the feat as printed wouldn't be correct. It's far far simpler and better for the sanity of the playerbase (the casual players who don't post here) to just ban it. --Penn, Ket Triad Or erratta it to add the clause that Metamagic Song has, that you can't make spells a higher level than you can cast. Boom, perfectly balanced.
Gelth 02-08-07, 03:09 PM	Or erratta it to add the clause that Metamagic Song has, that you can't make spells a higher level than you can cast. Boom, perfectly balanced. Again, that would be changing how the feat works. It would again be balanced (I'd prefer an erratta that specified that nothing can metamagic a spell above what you can cast, but that would make most Greater Metamagic Rods pretty useless), but it's not something that LG can do lightly. Banning the feat has far less effect on the rules. Changing the rules away from the official rules is bad. Note how many rules changed to be in line with the erratta, this draft? Even crafting? --Penn, Ket Triad
Timlagor 02-08-07, 03:13 PM	I always ask the Triads to think twice before granting access to those damned things <metamagic rods> in adventures. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns Well that certainly explains a lot... I suppose I'll just have to take Craft Rod since I can't find Access :P
Gelth 02-08-07, 03:15 PM	Well that certainly explains a lot... I suppose I'll just have to take Craft Rod since I can't find Access :P You still need to have access to make the rod, though, even with the feat. :) --Penn, Ket Triad
LachlarlanIII 02-08-07, 03:21 PM	Heh. By the new rules, take Craft Rod at 12th, Quicken feat, and start being a Quicken Rod factory. Problem solved. Per the draft you have to find it before you can craft it. So unless you find a Metamagic Rod of Quicken you can't craft one.
copper_wyrmling 02-08-07, 03:21 PM	Well that certainly explains a lot... I suppose I'll just have to take Craft Rod since I can't find Access :P Yeah. I was slightly surprised to see that my sorcerer is apparently correct about powers beyond Oerth conspiring to deprive her of access to metamagic rods :P Along with Limited spell access and rod of wonder access, it's about all she actually wants - and the ones that she wants most are rods of energy substitution, which don't alter the spell level at all ;)
Timlagor 02-08-07, 04:08 PM	You still need to have access to make the rod, though, even with the feat. :) --Penn, Ket Triad Yeah I thought of that just after I posted. :weep: ..did you used to be able to craft any Metamagic Rod you had the Metamagic Feat for? (or did I just dream that?)
JamesMaissen 02-08-07, 04:09 PM	Or erratta it to add the clause that Metamagic Song has, that you can't make spells a higher level than you can cast. Boom, perfectly balanced. That would be the way to balance it. However since the Circle is not the same as the publisher of the game, the one that needs to change it is alas the later, perhaps it would be best to bug customer service about it, James
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 04:17 PM	That would be the way to balance it. However since the Circle is not the same as the publisher of the game, the one that needs to change it is alas the later, perhaps it would be best to bug customer service about it, James That would be the most effective change, yes. But the LGCS is loaded with additional "restrictions" on the normal rules. This would be just one more...
hoppy 02-08-07, 04:36 PM	That would be changing how the feat works, which means that the feat as printed wouldn't be correct. ... --Penn, Ket Triad The feat would work the same, the list of things it could be applied to would be limited. This is consistent with other restrictions in the campaign. I also like the idea of limiting it to the level of a spell you can actually cast. "You cannot apply DMM to a spell if it would raise the level of the spell above the level you can normally cast." Of course, with this crowd, you'd have to define "normally". Hoppy